What a pain! One handed backhand

zill

Legend
It’s unbelievable so many of us, myself leading the crowd, struggle so much with this ‘simple’ stroke as demonstrated below by Lendl.
Did modern ohbh ruin the opportunity for the rec player to learn it?


no modern 1hb works in exactly the same complexity with maybe a minor tweak or two as what Lendl is doing here but modern is clearly better. Some players are simply not meant to hit 1hb, myself included.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
A great illustration of 3 basic components of the shot starting at 0:41 - "inside out" swing path, squaring up of the racket and brushing up the back of the ball.

What I really like about it is the shoulder turn with almost no independent arm-hand lift or take back during most of the take back. From there on it’s just a pendulum swing.
I just can’t understand/explain why I still do the opposite despite everything I tried. I suspect two culprits: 1. not being able to see the ball well if I turned as much as Lendl does. 2. Lack of neck flexibility. ( 2 might be responsible for 1 actually)

 
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Dragy

Legend
What I really like about it is the shoulder turn with almost no independent arm-hand lift or take back during most of the take back. From there on it’s just a pendulum swing.
I just can’t understand/explain why I still do the opposite despite everything I tried. I suspect two culprits: 1. not being able to see the ball well if I turned as much as Lendl does. 2. Lack of neck flexibility. ( 2 might be responsible for 1 actually)

Your biggest issue is still hitting all shots extremely close to the tip. Stiff 100 sq.in. forgives it to a degree, but if you swing /2 less effortful, but make contact in the middle of the stringbed, it is powerful, spinning and consistent.

Your second biggest issue is arming the swing too soon. You leave your off-hand behind the back and don’t give yourself chance to smoothly uncoil to start the swing. Try this:
- get into this position with both hands on the racquet
LRzfDxN.jpg

- twist back and forth with your hips and torso while keeping arms exactly same, so it’s just passively carried around
- then split and swing with you arm at the forward end of that twisting motion

Then go with shadow swings where your continuous swing includes this phase. Then go with live ball
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
What I really like about it is the shoulder turn with almost no independent arm-hand lift or take back during most of the take back. From there on it’s just a pendulum swing.
I just can’t understand/explain why I still do the opposite despite everything I tried. I suspect two culprits: 1. not being able to see the ball well if I turned as much as Lendl does. 2. Lack of neck flexibility. ( 2 might be responsible for 1 actually)

Can you make a vid of you doing drop feeds?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You leave your off-hand behind the back and don’t give yourself chance to smoothly uncoil to start the swing. Try this:
- get into this position with both hands on the racquet
LRzfDxN.jpg
I can only do that on shadow swings. Proper off hand movement disappears magically when I hit a ball!
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I think the older generation hit ohbh beautifully. Lendl, Edberg, Muster. They all do the exact same thing: a great unit turn without lifting the racket up independently with the hand. There’s zero lift early in the take back and the lift that comes at the end of the take back happens again by the torso coil and front shoulder dipping. Such a smooth take back. And from then on they simply execute a pendulum like swing.
I tried to emulate that for two hours today. The early lift is so badly ingrained in my backhand that it’s hard to break the habit. I made some progress.

 

Pumpkin

Professional
It's a "curious" shot. Mine went off for two weeks but now it is purring like a kitten. It's all about the timing.
 

Pumpkin

Professional
I think the older generation hit ohbh beautifully. Lendl, Edberg, Muster. They all do the exact same thing: a great unit turn without lifting the racket up independently with the hand. There’s zero lift early in the take back and the lift that comes at the end of the take back happens again by the torso coil and front shoulder dipping. Such a smooth take back. And from then on they simply execute a pendulum like swing.
I tried to emulate that for two hours today. The early lift is so badly ingrained in my backhand that it’s hard to break the habit. I made some progress.

Good backhand.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
arming the swing too soon. You leave your off-hand behind the back and don’t give yourself chance to smoothly uncoil to start the swing.

Do you think I’m letting go of the racket too early with my left hand because my forward swing is done mostly by right arm swing instead of torso uncoiling? From what you said above it sounds like you mean I’m not uncoiling properly because I’m letting go of the racket too early with my left hand while I thought it might be the other way around.
 

Pumpkin

Professional
There’s still some lifting of racket with the hand independently of the torso turn and coil. It’s such a strange urge to resist but I believe I’ll get there after a few more sessions.
That doesn't matter. You can do that. It's not wrong. You are advanced enough to simply listen to your body to make minor adjustments through repetition. It's a fine backhand already. It will only improve with repetition. Don't make any drastic changes. The nucleus is already in place.
 

Dragy

Legend
Do you think I’m letting go of the racket too early with my left hand because my forward swing is done mostly by right arm swing instead of torso uncoiling? From what you said above it sounds like you mean I’m not uncoiling properly because I’m letting go of the racket too early with my left hand while I thought it might be the other way around.
You do uncoil, but you start your independent arm swing too early (or you start uncoiling too late). I suggest that you sequence it so the arm acts on top of uncoil.

Why it’s suboptimal to start both simultaneously? Because this makes your shoulder muscles fight the inertia and acceleration from torso uncoil. Which leads to either instability and excessive effort (and overuse injuries from repetition), or to toning down the uncoil to the level arm can bear the load comfortably. Which limits easy and consistent input from torso uncoiling.

If you give your body a moment to start before arm launch, it is much more fluid and clean. It might feel as if you do nothing, don’t swing initially, but it’s just the feel: hitting arm still starts down and around with torso and uncoil, to take off in a moment, swing out and rip across the ball.
 

LOBALOT

Hall of Fame
I actually really like my one-hander and hit some great angled shots with it. It is actually more consistent than my forehand which I tend to overhit like most righty players.

The only thing with mine, which I think is the case for most average players, is it can be pressured with aggressive play but those that do have success doing that I try to run around it a little bit more to minimize the impact.
 

Dragy

Legend
I can only do that on shadow swings. Proper off hand movement disappears magically when I hit a ball!
That’s why you break habits in progressions. You can set your BM to give you slowish feeds, stand halfway between service line and baseline, focus on that uncoil while making clean contact and hitting soft. Then progress by adding more RHS through contact while maintaining same initial form
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
What I really like about it is the shoulder turn with almost no independent arm-hand lift or take back during most of the take back. From there on it’s just a pendulum swing.
I just can’t understand/explain why I still do the opposite despite everything I tried. I suspect two culprits: 1. not being able to see the ball well if I turned as much as Lendl does. 2. Lack of neck flexibility. ( 2 might be responsible for 1 actually)



The main issue I see is the swing path and what to do with the ball. The TS shot should not be approaching the ball horizontally and slapping it. Instead, should come under it and brush up.
The yellow line connects the handle to the tip - the future multi-slam winner in the last picture has the racket aligned horizontally in the slot position than the previous slam winners on the left :)
Since you swing slower than pro players I would think your angle of attack should be steeper than them. imo, the blue line should be your angle of attack to brush up the back of the ball. The path should be more golf like swing than a horizontal slap. The racket face appears a lot more open than others (grip or supination/pronation/esr fine tuning)
It's the exact same issue with your forehand as well.


ohbh-slot_w8bfjc.png
 
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ngoster

Semi-Pro
From what I can see, you have a nice BH. It just needs some fine tuning which, as others have mentioned, comes with repetition and listening to your body.

From this picture, I did notice that your spacing, or lack thereof, may be causing you to feel late and jammed. The racquet head doesn't look like it's allowed to come down then up on the ball but, rather, it has to come across your body. This happens to me also them I'm reminded to extend my arms more to form a triangle during the unit turn.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
The main issue I see is the swing path and what to do with the ball. The TS shot should not be approaching the ball horizontally and slapping it. Instead, should come under it and brush up.
The yellow line connects the handle to the tip - the future multi-slam winner in the last picture has the racket aligned horizontally in the slot position than the previous slam winners on the left :)
Since you swing slower than pro players I would think your angle of attack should be steeper than them. imo, the blue line should be your angle of attack to brush up the back of the ball. The path should be more golf like swing than a horizontal slap. The racket face appears a lot more open than others (grip or supination/pronation/esr fine tuning)
It's the exact same issue with your forehand as well.


ohbh-slot_w8bfjc.png
I definitely want and try to go more under the ball like that blue line but I have huge difficulty achieving that, I don’t know why. I simply can’t let the racket do a pendulum motion going down from the top of take back. It’s probably due to lack of looseness or being too focused to swing straight at the ball. The interesting thing though is that even with the shallow swing path I seem to create quite a bit of top spin.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I definitely want and try to go more under the ball like that blue line but I have huge difficulty achieving that, I don’t know why. I simply can’t let the racket do a pendulum motion going down from the top of take back. It’s probably due to lack of looseness or being too focused to swing straight at the ball. The interesting thing though is that even with the shallow swing path I seem to create quite a bit of top spin.
Just take it straight back. Look at Musters bh. Then add the loop
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Just take it straight back. Look at Musters bh. Then add the loop
That’s exactly what I was thinking of doing after watching Lendl again this morning. One detail though, his hand is very low during take back but as his racket head is up he still gets good momentum with that. I mean he still lifts it up at the end of take back but I’m sure I can avoid that for the time being and still get enough power.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
That’s exactly what I was thinking of doing after watching Lendl again this morning. One detail though, his hand is very low during take back but as his racket head is up he still gets good momentum with that. I mean he still lifts it up at the end of take back but I’m sure I can avoid that for the time being and still get enough power.
Going straight back is better for the return too
 

zill

Legend
The main issue I see is the swing path and what to do with the ball. The TS shot should not be approaching the ball horizontally and slapping it. Instead, should come under it and brush up.
The yellow line connects the handle to the tip - the future multi-slam winner in the last picture has the racket aligned horizontally in the slot position than the previous slam winners on the left :)
Since you swing slower than pro players I would think your angle of attack should be steeper than them. imo, the blue line should be your angle of attack to brush up the back of the ball. The path should be more golf like swing than a horizontal slap. The racket face appears a lot more open than others (grip or supination/pronation/esr fine tuning)
It's the exact same issue with your forehand as well.


ohbh-slot_w8bfjc.png

This hits the nail on the head. It's not about how high or low your racquet is initially.
 

zill

Legend
I definitely want and try to go more under the ball like that blue line but I have huge difficulty achieving that, I don’t know why. I simply can’t let the racket do a pendulum motion going down from the top of take back. It’s probably due to lack of looseness or being too focused to swing straight at the ball.

You simply can't.



The interesting thing though is that even with the shallow swing path I seem to create quite a bit of top spin.

You don't those balls look pretty flat.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You simply can't.





You don't those balls look pretty flat.
I see the spin with my own eyes when I get it right. Sure it can be more and consistently. Now about the racket drop and going under the ball more it’s probably a better idea to focus on the resultant action of the ball as I believe human body can adjust. What I mean is if I can try to focus on and achieve creating nice top spin on low balls mission is complete. That’s a better way than looking at still images and slow motion videos of my strokes.
 

zill

Legend
I see the spin with my own eyes when I get it right. Sure it can be more and consistently. Now about the racket drop and going under the ball more it’s probably a better idea to focus on the resultant action of the ball as I believe human body can adjust. What I mean is if I can try to focus on and achieve creating nice top spin on low balls mission is complete. That’s a better way than looking at still images and slow motion videos of my strokes.

What I can tell you from experience is you can try to change elements of your stroke consciously but those changes translate little to the physics and mechanics of the stroke. So basically you can tell if someone is talented or not at the game from a very early stage and with little instruction.
 

zill

Legend
What I can tell you from experience is you can try to change elements of your stroke consciously but those changes translate little to the physics and mechanics of the stroke. So basically you can tell if someone is talented or not at the game from a very early stage and with little instruction.

Although conscious changes and instruction can improve your shots a lot but it doesn't make you from an average server to a great server for example. Nor a painful bh to a good bh.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
What I can tell you from experience is you can try to change elements of your stroke consciously but those changes translate little to the physics and mechanics of the stroke. So basically you can tell if someone is talented or not at the game from a very early stage and with little instruction.
You’ve made these points many times before. All negative, all the same over and over again. Why do you bother? Go read other threads now.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
I definitely want and try to go more under the ball like that blue line but I have huge difficulty achieving that, I don’t know why.

Is it because you didn't even try? I definitely think so. Why don't you start with the ideal slot position and start from there to develop the feeling during live ball.

The interesting thing though is that even with the shallow swing path I seem to create quite a bit of top spin.

Here's an experiment. Can you hit from around the service line and make the ball reach the fence on ONE bounce (ball bouncing within baseline of course)?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Is it because you didn't even try? I definitely think so. Why don't you start with the ideal slot position and start from there to develop the feeling during live ball.



Here's an experiment. Can you hit from around the service line and make the ball reach the fence on ONE bounce (ball bouncing within baseline of course)?
I’ll try that.
 

zill

Legend
Tell me then why you’ve been trying to improve all of your strokes for 4 years.

4.5 years now. To make them as best as possible given my mechanics. Only one shot had no hope and I abandoned it after working on it for 6 months which was my 1hb (although I had used it for 15 years prior without thinking about it hence no knowledge that it was inherently problematic). Worked on my 2hb for 1.5 years now although is not goat has potential to be a descent which it is now.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
4.5 years now. To make them as best as possible given my mechanics. Only one shot had no hope and I abandoned it after working on it for 6 months which was my 1hb (although I had used it for 15 years prior without thinking about it hence no knowledge that it was inherently problematic). worked on my 2hb for 1.5 years now although is not goat but has potential to be a descent which it is now.
So you can try to improve your technique as long as you want but I shouldn’t??
 

zill

Legend
So you can try to improve your technique as long as you want but I shouldn’t??

Your 1bh has serious problems. Like me you should also abandoned it and use a 2hb is what I am suggesting. All your other strokes are biomechanically fine. You have potential also to develop a descent 2hb.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Your 1bh has serious problems. Like me you should also abandoned it and use a 2hb is what I am suggesting. All your other strokes are biomechanically fine. You have potential also to develop a descent 2hb.
Well, I disagree and again you’ve said this a hundred times before. You’re not bored? Or maybe you care so much about my improvement, I keep misunderstanding your efforts!!
 
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