What a pain! One handed backhand

dannyslicer

Semi-Pro
now that C's game is approaching his peak tennis...

what we need is someone else who needs massive fixing, that will get the coaches excited, e.g. the BMG.

can someone maybe convince @dannyslicer to fix his shyt game? he's not talking to me anymore.

since I'm also a psychiatric expert... the reason he starts so many junker threads is that deep down he wants to be a 'real man' style player, but knowing the challenges ahead to build a 'real tennis' game, he's trying to get the community's confirmation that copping out as a junker is somewhat ok.. plus he's underestimating the work needed to be a good junker.
I play real man tennis.
I get my ass kicked by 4.5 junkers like MEP
Hence, big respect.
Playing basher tennis is easy.
Being a junker takes decades of work.
 

ppma

Professional
Being a junker takes decades of work.
It does not when you've lived all your life junking because you've never learnt anything better (technique-wise and not winning-wise).
The true art of tennis is being able to master all the skills. Heavy deep topspin drives, and poisonous slices that must be digged up.

The difference between that and the typical 4.x junker is that he does not do it on purpose. It's their only way of hitting. If they try to hit proper shots, they just can't.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
I think Opelka has tested Perricard's 1hb enough tonight for us to see its flaw. Don't even need Djokovic.

not sure to call it a flaw. it's an old school small-degree- ESR linear bh. similar to F Lopez and Gonzo... a disadvantage in today's high spin game. but they hide it well enough behind big serves/fhs.

among the old time greats Edberg, Mac and PistolP have this style; while Becker and Lendl have more modern looking ESR action.

the only advantage for this old school bh today is faster access to the net. reason why the Bryans used this style very well in dubs.
 
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zill

Legend
not sure to call it a flaw. it's an old school small-degree- ESR linear bh. similar to F Lopez and Gonzo... a disadvantage in today's high spin game. but they hide it well enough behind big serves/fhs.

among the old time greats Edberg, Mac and PistolP have this style; while Becker and Lendl have more modern looking ESR action.

the only advantage for this old school bh today is faster access to the net. reason why the Bryans used this style very well in dubs.



Watch again, its as modern as it gets. Think Federer, Musetti.
But he doesn't have adequate drop so end up looking very linear without much spin and hard to generate depth on the shot especially in the cross court direction. Much prefer flat down the line strikes off shortish balls. Sound familiar @Curious ?
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame

Watch again, its as modern as it gets. Think Federer, Musetti.
But he doesn't have adequate drop so end up looking very linear without much spin and hard to generate depth on the shot especially in the cross court direction. Much prefer flat down the line strikes off shortish balls. Sound familiar @Curious ?


end of their ESRs. about 90 degree difference. the shallow drop is related, less ISR, therefore less ESR.

not adequate? maybe maybe not, that's how he was tot to hit. old school.

this is unrelated to @Curious issue prior to the fix, which was flipping.

no pro can flip their way to the top rankings.
 

zill

Legend

end of their ESRs. about 90 degree difference. the shallow drop is related, less ISR, therefore less ESR.

not adequate? maybe maybe not, that's how he was tot to hit. old school.

this is unrelated to @Curious issue prior to the fix, which was flipping.

no pro can flip their way to the top rankings.

I don't mind whether C flips or not. It's his drop that is the issue. If C had an adequate drop then he will work out the forward swing eventually.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
I don't mind whether C flips or not. It's his drop that is the issue. If C had an adequate drop then he will work out the forward swing eventually.

I have explained this many times already. When a player is flipping he cannot drop deep because the face would be even MORE OPEN. the brain desperately wants to save the embarrassment of hitting a ball over the back fence so it tells the hand better stop this deep drop bs and get the flipping started. That was the reason C couldn’t drop deep

Now that the flipping is fixed, the drop will be deeper. All my guys do. After the brains realizes there is no more risk of missing the swing will become more aggressive.

All kinds of inputs before asking him to coil to drop deep to stride etc. all of these things can only happen after the racket face is under control.

I have a thread called teach the hand first. The hand needs to have pure ww first. Otherwise any additional power from the rest of the KC will be leaked.
 
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ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
I have explained this many times already. When a player is flipping he cannot drop deep because the face would be even MORE OPEN. the brain desperately wants to save the embarrassment of hitting a ball over the back fence so it tells the hand better stop this deep drop bs and get the flipping started. That was the reason C couldn’t drop deep

Now that the flipping is fixed, the drop will be deeper. All my guys do. After the brains realizes there is no more risk of missing the swing will become more aggressive.

All kinds of inputs before asking him to coil to drop deep to stride etc. all of these things can only happen after the racket face is under control.

I have a thread called teach the hand first. The hand needs to have pure ww first. Otherwise any additional power from the rest of the KC will be leaked.
The racquet tip is up after take back. The racquet head drops and pronation/ISR happens during drop phase. The racquet immediately moves to contact naturally turning the ISR/pronation, it was loaded with, to ESR/supination. Not much attention needs to be paid to ww motion via the thumb. Your thumb drill nonsense is the definition of flipping.
The OP’s problem is that he never gets into a deep ISR/pronation position.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I don't mind whether C flips or not. It's his drop that is the issue. If C had an adequate drop then he will work out the forward swing eventually.
I think I was on the right track here in terms of drop mechanism, ie waiting with the racket tip up until I’m ready to drop and swing as a single dynamic motion. So basically I need to do a deeper version of this , which can only happen if I have enough time. When timing is rushed, the drop will be shallow.


 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
The racquet tip is up after take back. The racquet head drops and pronation/ISR happens during drop phase. The racquet immediately moves to contact naturally turning the ISR/pronation, it was loaded with, to ESR/supination. Not much attention needs to be paid to ww motion via the thumb. Your thumb drill nonsense is the definition of flipping.
The OP’s problem is that he never gets into a deep ISR/pronation position..

lol... you can't hit the shot, and you have never tot anyone successfully how to hit the shot.

there is no pronation supination.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
the internet coaches usually look at your vids and find something doesn't quite fit the 'ATP' model and tell you to fix it, without any understanding why the problem was there in the first place.

@Curious no worries, your timing issue is common among my guys, I will help you fix it, it might also fix any timing issue on the fh side.

@user92626 you said having problem when the balls come fast... relief is in sight!

lol but I'm gonna let this brew for a little, just to prove my point -

when the patient has a fever, you don't just tell him to fix the high temperature. you actually have to find the root cause and fix the root cause.

like in tennis - if a player cannot time a fast incoming ball, what does he do? please don't tell me he just need to prepare early and start the drop early.... then what if the ball comes slow next time? your gonna have to pause in the middle of the swing?

I will even give some hint before I reveal the answer later.

the bh is ISR then ESR. the key question is - how does the ISR happen?

@Curious you still have that video where you were showing the 1-2-3 in the back hand: 1-tip up, 2-ISR drop, and 3-the forward swing? please dig that up and it will help when I give the fix.
 
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Jono123

Professional
I think I was on the right track here in terms of drop mechanism, ie waiting with the racket tip up until I’m ready to drop and swing as a single dynamic motion. So basically I need to do a deeper version of this , which can only happen if I have enough time. When timing is rushed, the drop will be shallow.


For my money there's still too much arm which accounts for the variance in output and also makes it more susceptible to breaking down.

I'd like to see a more grooved repeatable stroke. So prep early, lock & **** the frame until your chin touches your shoulder and let it do more of the work.
 
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10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
For my money there's still too much arm which accounts for the variance in output and also makes it more susceptible to breaking down.

I'd like to see a more grooved repeatable stroke. So prep early, lock & **** the frame until your chin touches your shoulder and let it do more of the work.
At the moment the ww action may not be 100% pure.

@Curious please revisit the thumb drill if any flipping comes back.

The timing will be fixed. I bet my TT street credit on that.

So far no answers from any internet coaches. Any fixes needed to get to the root cause first.

Can’t just say hey this part of the swing doesn’t look like ATP can you just do it.

No. That’s faking. Not real solve.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
going to bed now so I am gonna leave a gem here..

lets talk about the fh for a second - since both C and @user92626 have good fh swing path but timing issues.

and answers from anybody will be appreciated.

not going off track. this topic is related to C's 1hb.

the question is -

after padding the dog, what muscle(s) are used to create the ESR in the fh?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
going to bed now so I am gonna leave a gem here..

lets talk about the fh for a second - since both C and @user92626 have good fh swing path but timing issues.

and answers from anybody will be appreciated.

not going off track. this topic is related to C's 1hb.

the question is -

after padding the dog, what muscle(s) are used to create the ESR in the fh?
I'm trying to implement this lady's teaching (youtube below). I think it's very credible. What do you think?

About timing, I played with such a wide range of "talents". After a while I got bored and got lazy with prep and timing.

On top of that I don't do practice rallies anymore. Don't bother with proper warm-up anymore which even my regular friend comments on it.

I don't mind eating humble pie and going back to beginning practing crude timing technique. LOL In fact at lunch table, when my friend asked why I suddenly stopped missing, I told them I was reciting a timing device so I wouldn't be late.


@10sbeast888 you're like me in this area. We don't mind sharing tips if we think they're helpful. :D


 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
I'm trying to implement this lady's teaching (youtube below). I think it's very credible. What do you think?

About timing, I played with such a wide range of "talents". After a while I got bored and got lazy with prep and timing.

On top of that I don't do practice rallies anymore. Don't bother with proper warm-up anymore which even my regular friend comments on it.

I don't mind eating humble pie and going back to beginning practing crude timing technique. LOL In fact at lunch table, when my friend asked why I suddenly stopped missing, I told them I was reciting a timing device so I wouldn't be late.


@10sbeast888 you're like me in this area. We don't mind sharing tips if we think they're helpful. :D



if it helps you... sure, go with it:)

was taking a guess, but perhaps your timing issue is different from C's.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
ok back to regular programming about timing.

@Curious - before I reveal the big secret.... have you tried to use the thumb drill to actually play on court.. either co-op hit or scored, just randomly throw in a thumb shot at +20 deg face angle, no need to footwork, coil, KC all that.

in a way this instantly solves the timing issue as you are just moving a thumb... and the real solution is related to this.

'just moving a thumb' is the feel. the 'real' is that ISR does happen if you are relaxed.
 

Jono123

Professional
The heel toe element is super important as it affects the weight transfer. C's front foot looks a little flat.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
What are the different timings?

I have some ideas about his timing issue, but first want him to try the thumb drill on court.

amof, nobody should have timing issues on the fh side either, because as the mirror image of the bh thumb push, the fh is just the 3 lower fingers pushing bevel 7 (say SW grip) with the index knuckle being the leverage point on bevel 4.

certainly ANYONE can do a finger squeeze in time, no matter how fast the ball.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
ok back to regular programming about timing.

@Curious - before I reveal the big secret.... have you tried to use the thumb drill to actually play on court.. either co-op hit or scored, just randomly throw in a thumb shot at +20 deg face angle, no need to footwork, coil, KC all that.

in a way this instantly solves the timing issue as you are just moving a thumb... and the real solution is related to this.

'just moving a thumb' is the feel. the 'real' is that ISR does happen if you are relaxed.
I’m pretty sure I know what to do. I just need the proper timing to do it right. See how he immediately gets ready to swing as soon as he comes out of the split step. That transition is too slow in my bh.


 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
I’m pretty sure I know what to do. I just need the proper timing to do it right. See how he immediately gets ready to swing as soon as he comes out of the split step. That transition is too slow in my bh.



you are on the right track.

you had this video of hitting the bh with the 1-2-3 rhythm.

here is feel vs. real again.

in slow motion you see the pros do 1-2-3: 1 tip up, 2 ISR racket drop, 3 swing up and across.

in 'feel' though, there is no '2'. so ironically, the way to drop deeper, is to NOT do it at all!

when you are tip up at the 1 position, fire the KC immediately. if the hand is slightly below the ball, it will push on bevel 6. and due to initeria the racket head drops.

makes sense? if your relaxed, the KC cause the drop to happen, automatically, WITHOUT you trying to drop it.

I don't know about your fh timing tempo... but the principles are the same. after you pad the dog, youyou fire the KC immediately, the inertial causes the ESR to happen, without you intentionally trying to make it happen. (that's why I laid down a trick question before, which muscles do the ESR, the answer is none).

I still need to reiterate the importance of the racket face control - ZERO degree angle change... if there is any flipping, the above timing will not work, so make sure the WW action is pure.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
in 'feel' though, there is no '2'. so ironically, the way to drop deeper, is to NOT do it at all!

when you are tip up at the 1 position, fire the KC immediately. if the hand is slightly below the ball, it will push on bevel 6. and due to initeria the racket head drops.

makes sense?
Yes, makes perfect sense!
 

Dragy

Legend
when you are tip up at the 1 position, fire the KC immediately. if the hand is slightly below the ball, it will push on bevel 6. and due to initeria the racket head drops.
It may not work straight, as it doesn’t for C and some other players who have that “wrap” forward swing on BH — bending the elbow as they uncoil.

For RH drop to happen naturally one needs to put the hand into proper slot, so that he accelerates up and out, not down to the ball, neither straight forward from behind the ball. Or “inertia” works the wrong way.

One shouldn’t drop racquet head consciously, that’s for sure. But one shall drop his both hands with racquet to set proper “slot” position to lead acceleration with the dominant hand.

PS There’s a chance to just swing from tip-up position IF one is very good with positioning and orienting his whole body and posture against the incoming ball. And kind of do one same swing for every ball, while adopting the spine tilt, leg bend, “weight transfer” direction. But it’s quite a demand to fulfill.
 

ppma

Professional
Timing problems in rec tennis come from bad ball recognition. Many times that is due to surface court change, partner of very different playing styles switching, or even opening a new can of balls after being used to a set of old slow balls.

It's in the brain's circuitry and not in the technique, most likely.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
It may not work straight, as it doesn’t for C and some other players who have that “wrap” forward swing on BH — bending the elbow as they uncoil.

For RH drop to happen naturally one needs to put the hand into proper slot, so that he accelerates up and out, not down to the ball, neither straight forward from behind the ball. Or “inertia” works the wrong way.

One shouldn’t drop racquet head consciously, that’s for sure. But one shall drop his both hands with racquet to set proper “slot” position to lead acceleration with the dominant hand.

PS There’s a chance to just swing from tip-up position IF one is very good with positioning and orienting his whole body and posture against the incoming ball. And kind of do one same swing for every ball, while adopting the spine tilt, leg bend, “weight transfer” direction. But it’s quite a demand to fulfill.

the slot can be trained with the thumb drill, therefore I'd like him to try it on the court.

Timing problems in rec tennis come from bad ball recognition. Many times that is due to surface court change, partner of very different playing styles switching, or even opening a new can of balls after being used to a set of old slow balls.

It's in the brain's circuitry and not in the technique, most likely.

could be.. let's see how C does with the new tempo of "1-3", without the '2'. he's playing with the ball machine and guys below his level, should be able to handle.
 

Dragy

Legend
the slot can be trained with the thumb drill, therefore I'd like him to try it on the court.
Yes, I agree. Yet one needs to hit that point from which he can deliver via the thumb.

We can look at rally ball. If a player can rally with desired and varied shape, no need to focus on slot or anything. If not — need to resolve it.

The point is, you want to have a swing across the ball, either your “thumb only”, or fuller/longer/faster, but there’s optimal entrance point and exit point, where ball is in-between.

Entrance point is slot/drop/buttcap-forward/off-arm release/whatever else. Exit point is “extension” with racquet tip pointing up like a torch, or tilted forward. May be a bit less rotated or more.

And a player needs to learn to intuitively find those entrance an exit, and then merge the entrance with uncoil. High takeback is to get some initial swing speed and to make finding that entrance easier by dropping rather than pulling the racquet around.

What @Curious skips every time is work to be done to train that merge, connection. Even if it seems hitch-y in practice initially, you need to be getting from full prep and coil towards “entrance”, rather than swipe at the ball like frisbee — because frisbee style only works for one particular ball and intended stroke, not for real life variety.
 

Jono123

Professional
Yes, something like this. When I have enough time ‘2’ (drop) will happen naturally and combined with 3. I’m still a bit late in my turn and take back.


I think it looks better with good net clearance.

I still don't see any body in the shot and your weight is not transitioning forward. Which is why your balls are landing short.
 
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10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Yes, something like this. When I have enough time ‘2’ (drop) will happen naturally and combined with 3. I’m still a bit late in my turn and take back.



smoother isn't it!

@Jono123 we ain't building the next Dimi, give the guy some time lol.. going thru a swing change is not a matter of a few days..

@Dragy sure we are all looking for that perfect entry/exit hitting the ball absolutely sweet, as you know the real world ain't the same, hence my philosophy is just to raise the tolerance.. make the strike zone 4-ft big, so anywhere within this 4 ft you touch the ball it is still in the court.

@Curious the next step of course is to keep accumulating reps so it becomes muscle memory - definitely preaching to the choir as if you need a reminder to work hard lol... but related to tolerance is that now with face control and more spin you just aim for a big target and your brain will realize that this shot will always land in and encourage you to swing more aggressively, which is what Jono wanted to see.


btw where are the bozos who laughed at me when I said you aim small miss small.... Stokke made a ref to Nole saying he aims at a dime on the court.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame

that's it.. your good:)

adjustments for the high ball, so you won't need to back up..

- set the hand higher, but not too high to feel weak; similar to what I posted in the 'high fh' thread.. the racket face would be open if the hand is high, so instead of 'tip up' (say 12 o'clock), the tip would be pointing to the upper right, say 1:30 or 2 o'c.
- contact more in front so you can get a closed face easier - (wait, ain't you an expert in 'hitting down'? so you should know already lol)
- due to the high contact you'd feel more 'across' in the 'up and across'. it almost feels like you pull straight to the right fence.
- at impact, the racket head can be higher than the hand.

I have several high balls in my wall hit, you'll notice the racket still has a lot of speed in the follow-thru, that is because the KC is fired to produce more of an 'across' swing.

other than that, enjoy the shot!
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
The opponent has good disguise in terms of hitting with topspin or slice, hard to tell what he'll do
He’s a great player, one of the best juniors in Victoria 60 years ago. We were practicing for his match against a top pro at AO today! He is one of 8 male rec players selected for the new ‘1 point slam’ activity. $60,000 prize money!:D
 

ShinMezame

New User
Biggest thing I see is that you're not using the lower body at all in your kinetic chain, basically arming the shot. You can see your left heel raises up after your shots because you're using that back leg to counterbalance all the muscling you're doing with your arm as they rotate opposite to each other around the axis of rotation of your right leg.

You should start with a hip drive initiated from the left leg pushing against the ground, then using that energy to loop into the rest of your swing. This will add some milliseconds to the stroke and may be completely different timing for you adjust to though.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Biggest thing I see is that you're not using the lower body at all in your kinetic chain, basically arming the shot. You can see your left heel raises up after your shots because you're using that back leg to counterbalance all the muscling you're doing with your arm as they rotate opposite to each other around the axis of rotation of your right leg.

You should start with a hip drive initiated from the left leg pushing against the ground, then using that energy to loop into the rest of your swing. This will add some milliseconds to the stroke and may be completely different timing for you adjust to though.
You’re the arming police, yeah?
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Biggest thing I see is that you're not using the lower body at all in your kinetic chain, basically arming the shot. You can see your left heel raises up after your shots because you're using that back leg to counterbalance all the muscling you're doing with your arm as they rotate opposite to each other around the axis of rotation of your right leg.

You should start with a hip drive initiated from the left leg pushing against the ground, then using that energy to loop into the rest of your swing. This will add some milliseconds to the stroke and may be completely different timing for you adjust to though.
You are giving this advice to the wrong guy. Some coaches at my club had a good time with these pearls of wisdom. We are having fun with the recent ‘swing down on the serve’ thread also although there is concern he will give himself ‘golfers elbow’.

Weight transfer, interesting concept. Do you really need it unless you want to approach the net? Could forward weight transfer be a bad idea like backward weight transfer? Everything goes out the window if you don’t have clean contact and the right racket face at contact. People always talk about how crucial it is to keep the head still during the forward swing. So that’s important but keeping the whole body still is not?!

This will do, too.
The use of 'Weight transfer' in teaching tennis should be banned!
Rotation. Rotation. Rotation.
If it was possible to place the palm of your hand lightly on Nadal's forehead ( not forehand!) would you feel his weight pushing you towards the net during his forehand swing?? No.


What I understand from just rotating and rotating plus weight transfer. I repeat, I say it’s unnecessary for the rec player as they’re already struggling with the most crucial things in tennis: clean contact+ the right racket face angle at contact. With weight transfer you’re adding another motion which could ruin the above.

 
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