What a pain! One handed backhand

zill

Legend
Then Sharapova FH also has macro flip!

It's not! You can clearly see on the bh side she flips the racquet down immediately from power position but on the fh side it drops down a little than flips down although the two actions look like a continous motion. It definitely takes longer to hit her fh compared to hitting her bh.
 

zill

Legend
Isn't this an amazing feeling? You think about something as important, dream about it working well and you go to the court and test it and it works exactly as you expected? Bent arm take back, bent arm racket drop, a compact swing ( Federer ). I hit more 1hbh drive winners including return of serve last night than I had in the last 10 years!

vid?
 

zill

Legend
What I understand from a flip is hand swings one way, the racket goes another way at the same time. So a flip doesn’t happen in a 1hbh in the sense that it typically happens in Federer’s forehand.

Backhand and forehand are different.

a) With the backhand the drop is the flip. @Curious take note.

b) With the forehand the flip comes after the drop.

Although am using the word flip here loosely and have different meanings used in the context of a) macro flip and b) micro flip

Your thinking of a micro flip which happens on the fh only.

bh is completely different type of flip. This distinction is the biggest between a bh and fh.
 

zill

Legend
So here is a Summary

Fh – Turn, Power Position, Drop, Flip to slot, Forward

Bh – Turn, Power Position, Flip to slot, Forward


The Drop seems to be missing in the Bh but the Drop is the Flip for the bh though a macro flip. The fh flip is a micro flip.
 

Dragy

Legend
The flip starts at the pull, the last frame is where it would start. If you look for footage it will be more pronounced the steeper the swing path
Flip in my mind is synonymous to “turn over”, “roll over”. I cannot see anything like that in Wawa swing. It possibly lags a tad more as hand goes out — maybe. But no “flip”.
 

Dragy

Legend

It's not! You can clearly see on the bh side she flips the racquet down immediately from power position but on the fh side it drops down a little than flips down although the two actions look like a continous motion. It definitely takes longer to hit her fh compared to hitting her bh.
Flip is turn over, roll over, somersault. Not some racquet head dip. Let’s use English words to what they intuitively mean, it’s already complicated enough when trying to communicate technique via words!
 

zill

Legend
Flip is turn over, roll over, somersault. Not some racquet head dip. Let’s use English words to what they intuitively mean, it’s already complicated enough when trying to communicate technique via words!
Let's just talk about the 1hb. To me the drop he does is more like a flip of the racquet down on edge. Am using the word 'flip' because it's more sudden and violent then a mere 'drop'. And flip used here in a macro context. Imagine flipping a person over your shoulder for example rather than flipping a pan cake.

 

Dragy

Legend
Let's just talk about the 1hb. To me the drop he does is more like a flip of the racquet down on edge. Am using the word 'flip' because it's more sudden and violent then a mere 'drop'. And flip used here in a macro context. Imagine flipping a person over your shoulder for example rather than flipping a pan cake.

He doesn’t just drop, he puts the racquet into the slot where he wants it using both hands, then the swing continues developing from there, what I showed in frame sequence on the previous page.
 

zill

Legend
He doesn’t just drop, he puts the racquet into the slot where he wants it using both hands, then the swing continues developing from there, what I showed in frame sequence on the previous page.

Am labelling that action as a downward 'flip' of the racquet from Power Position. Just to emphasis the sudden nature of it.

Because if someone like @Curious was to merely put the racquet into the slot it may be erroneous. Actually I think you also make that mistake. Your 1hb was very underpowered from memory.
 

Dragy

Legend
Your 1hb was very underpowered from memory.
Underpowered compared to what? In my memory, it was sometimes inconsistent and wild, but most of the times it gave me advantage in BH-to-BH rallies, landed deep with spin and produced errors.

Based on my limited experience, I'm pretty confident in my interpretation, because each piece of the picture when ingrained produced immediate improvement, which stuck with me.
 

zill

Legend
Underpowered compared to what? In my memory, it was sometimes inconsistent and wild, but most of the times it gave me advantage in BH-to-BH rallies, landed deep with spin and produced errors.

Based on my limited experience, I'm pretty confident in my interpretation, because each piece of the picture when ingrained produced immediate improvement, which stuck with me.

Compared to if you were to swing freely which would be up to 80% of your max swing speed. You seem to be only swinging at 60%.
 

Dragy

Legend
Compared to if you were to swing freely which would be up to 80% of your max swing speed. You seem to be only swinging at 60%.
It's vague talk man ;) It would be interesting if I could join you guys on court, or maybe if I was up to practicing for a week every day recording and reporting like @Curious. But neither is going to happen any time soon, I'm on 1-3h of court time per week schedule, and mostly warming up, playing points and sets. Also I'm just using 2HBH now.

So I suggest that you don't try to talk this through me and my OHBH and just trust that it served me well enough for my overall level and volumes of training. Even if it did seem underpowered by your standards.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Flip gives you the stretch shortening cycle ie the whip effect on fh. You don’t see that on ohbh. You instead need an ISR load with the drop.
 

zill

Legend
It's vague talk man ;) It would be interesting if I could join you guys on court, or maybe if I was up to practicing for a week every day recording and reporting like @Curious. But neither is going to happen any time soon, I'm on 1-3h of court time per week schedule, and mostly warming up, playing points and sets. Also I'm just using 2HBH now.

So I suggest that you don't try to talk this through me and my OHBH and just trust that it served me well enough for my overall level and volumes of training. Even if it did seem underpowered by your standards.

Let's see your 2hb.

Am posting my thoughts on the drop for the 1hb which to me is more of a flip. You are trying to disagree with me here.
 

Dragy

Legend
probably not even for fh.
Barty didn't. Del Porto didn't. Iga doesn't have the flip...

But maybe we've gone the wrong way, the talk was about drop initially, and here the term "swivel" possibly suits more to describe how racquet shifts from head up (or even head back) to head down as you pull. That you can see in most 2HBHs and FHs, like Iga or whoever. For OHBH this swivel may also happen, yet to lesser degree, the steeper the arc/swing path. One part is not to resist it and allow arm/forearm to turn into supination, I think.
 

zill

Legend
Flip gives you the stretch shortening cycle ie the whip effect on fh. You don’t see that on ohbh. You instead need an ISR load with the drop.

I am referring to flip more as a big flip like flipping a person over your shoulder. So not mere flipping out your phone which you are thinking.
 

zill

Legend
Barty didn't. Del Porto didn't. Iga doesn't have the flip...

But maybe we've gone the wrong way, the talk was about drop initially, and here the term "swivel" possibly suits more to describe how racquet shifts from head up (or even head back) to head down as you pull. That you can see in most 2HBHs and FHs, like Iga or whoever. For OHBH this swivel may also happen, yet to lesser degree, the steeper the arc/swing path. One part is not to resist it and allow arm/forearm to turn into supination, I think.

Again I wasn't talking about the swivel which happens on ATP fh.
 

Dragy

Legend
Am posting my thoughts on the drop for the 1hb which to me is more of a flip. You are trying to disagree with me here.
Show me, use some pics, cut the videos... Because your word description isn't clicking. Calling a "flip" something that doesn't include turning over, changing sides like at least 180 degrees - doesn't help. But maybe it's my lack of native English, if you all say there's clear flip in Wawa backhand, I'll for sure try to accommodate this into my linguistic.
 

zill

Legend
Show me, use some pics, cut the videos... Because your word description isn't clicking. Calling a "flip" something that doesn't include turning over, changing sides like at least 180 degrees - doesn't help. But maybe it's my lack of native English, if you all say there's clear flip in Wawa backhand, I'll for sure try to accommodate this into my linguistic.

But Wawrinka simply puts his racquet in the slot in quite straight-forward manner, using both hands, and pulls from there:

GesbigH.png

I am claiming going from pic 1 from the left to pic 3 is a flip. That is a 90 degree change there.

Rudimentarily it's drop but more accurately a flip.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I am referring to flip more as a big flip like flipping a person over your shoulder. So not mere flipping out your phone which you are thinking.
You wanna see a real ohbh flip? Here it is. :D
Have you seen anyone hitting a bh like that?


 

Dragy

Legend
I am claiming going from pic 1 from the left to pic 3 is a flip. That is a 90 degree change there.

Rudimentarily it's drop but more accurately a flip.
During this phase Stan moves both his arms and racquet as a unit with very slight change of configuration. Arms are much bigger mass then racquet. Racquet doesn't do anything independently until at least frame 4. You might want to consider this to understand how proper shape is achieved.
 

zill

Legend
What does that even mean? I can’t imagine that being applied to tennis strokes. Flipping a phone is more meaningful. :D

Basically flipping a phone for the fh but flipping a person for the 1hb.

For the 2hb it's flipping something in between the two!
 

zill

Legend
During this phase Stan moves both his arms and racquet as a unit with very slight change of configuration. Arms are much bigger mass then racquet. Racquet doesn't do anything independently until at least frame 4. You might want to consider this to understand how proper shape is achieved.

Arm and body help flip the racquet down to the position in pic 3 a 90 degree change.
 

Dragy

Legend
Arm and body help flip the racquet down to the position in pic 3 a 90 degree change.
So that’s what I said initially. He does what it takes to reach required position (slot) and basic dynamics which allow to accelerate along desired swingpath from slot.

Racquet head speed comes from uncoiling, arm swinging with wide radius and across then, racquet turning into the ball and over via ESR. Important thing is to not allow arm to collapse as torso uncoil develops, this is solved by initial arm swing speed, no static, and by initial support from left hand. Otherwise power leaks.
 

zill

Legend
But Wawrinka simply puts his racquet in the slot in quite straight-forward manner, using both hands, and pulls from there:

GesbigH.png
For simplicity and generality let’s just call going from pic 1 to pic 3 as racquet lag.

We know it’s also the drop as well so @Curious the drop in the 1hb is a racquet lag. Hope that will help you determine how the drop works.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
For simplicity and generality let’s just call going from pic 1 to pic 3 as racquet lag.

We know it’s also the drop as well so @Curious the drop in the 1hb is a racquet lag. Hope that will help you determine how the drop works.
To me there’s no flip no lag. It’s just racket head drop.
 
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