Curious
G.O.A.T.
How do you swing at 70-80%? I’ll just swing as fast as I can without hurting myself. Can’t decide on percentages. Excluding defensive situations.
What a pain! One handed backhand
- Thread starter Curious
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optic yellow
Legend
Oh sorry, I did not track the conversation correctly. It is not a made up thing but the phrasing I used might not have corresponded with a specific item in a search engine. It is just the concept of applying certain breathing techniques to induce a constructive change in mental state, generally for this context ones which are calming, which have the effect of "correcting" the mental tailspin.
Dragy
Legend
Yeah, sure, percentages are wild guess. I just feel the difference between swinging fast and maxing out. I play with more powerful setup now than before so that I get all I need swinging fast (and too narrow margins if maxing out, so only deep in defense or some very comfortable sitter from deeper in the court, maybe).
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I’ve just watched Machac vs Alcaraz match live. Unbelievable ball striking from Machac. Looked like he hit every ball with max swing speed!
Dragy
Legend
Well if you wanna beat Alcaraz, there you go! But how consistent of a player he is? How many matches out of 10 he would win against top-10 players trying to do this?I’ve just watched Machac vs Alcaraz match live. Unbelievable ball striking from Machac. Looked like he hit every ball with max swing speed!
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
You most definetly should be a coach, imho! Thanks again for the wealth of information and the astute eye, coupled with the way you articulate your advises. Better than English speaking born coaches at times.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Did you watch Alcaraz destroying Sinner though in China 500 ATP final?I’ve just watched Machac vs Alcaraz match live. Unbelievable ball striking from Machac. Looked like he hit every ball with max swing speed!
He took control of most points and ended up with double the winners, but not from the first ball of the rallies though.
Even so, tennis being a sports of errors the whole affair was a close call: 2 TBs and a 7-5 set.
A joy to watch though!
Happi
Hall of Fame
Pros rarely swing all out, Rune hit a FH at 178 km/h in the Berrettini match but his average FH speed was 125 km/h that is about 70% of max speed. My guess is that every pro kan hit more or less same speed, but they average between 115-130.I’ve just watched Machac vs Alcaraz match live. Unbelievable ball striking from Machac. Looked like he hit every ball with max swing speed!
Wu hit a BH at 170 km/h but average 115 km/h
Dont know the stats from the match between Machac and Alcaraz but my guess is that average will be close to the normal 125 km/h for FH and and 115 km/h for BH
Dragy
Legend
I guess we are not talking blasting flat screamers, but using high RHS for pace+spin. The question is, how fast shall be that swing and what level of effort, to deliver strong topspin drive at your level. It can be 50% of your max ball speed, but 70% of your max swing speed, for example.
Happi
Hall of Fame
Exactly lot of speed goes into spin. I watched a Rublev training session this summer, and boy did he crush the ball with his FH.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
This percentage talk is funny! Just swing fast. Why would one hesitate to swing fast if knew how to create top spin? Ego worried too much about missing I guess. Btw something interesting happened tonight. I normally get some soreness in my arm or shoulder after a hitting session/match. Today after two hours I had zero pain. Could it be because I was probably less tense or tight as I swung fast on most balls? Can’t create racket head speed if not loose.
Dragy
Legend
Who exactly is the one with worried ego you are talking about here mate?
Or again, some avatar 3.5 who cannot progress for decades?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
@Curiuos
It's not ego. It's our collective experience that shapes our swings. If you fail enough times the subconscious mind needs to take precaution. That's all.
Do this test. Perform this easiest overhead, like ball 8feet high just right above the net for you to smash, would you hesitate? Heck no. That's because the mind knows the success rate is near 100%.
It's not ego. It's our collective experience that shapes our swings. If you fail enough times the subconscious mind needs to take precaution. That's all.
Do this test. Perform this easiest overhead, like ball 8feet high just right above the net for you to smash, would you hesitate? Heck no. That's because the mind knows the success rate is near 100%.
ratherlosethanpush
Rookie
If u open up the court of a strong ball, you are the one in trouble.
You seem to have a strange idea that a neutral rally ball is a weak passive shot. Its not its the strongest shot you can rally with and you should be working on it to generate weaker returns so u can safely open up play on the front foot.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Mahac had in average 130 km/h for the FH and Alcaraz 115 Km/h.
Now 130 km/h or 80 mph is my max measured FH : ) But it was measued during only one attempt (no warmups ), while..... falling on my but due to clay shoes used on hc. Still the fastest at my club, at the time....
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Talking about all of us.Who exactly is the one with worried ego you are talking about here mate?
Or again, some avatar 3.5 who cannot progress for decades?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
It’s the ego. It prevents the human body from performing at its full potential. Caring too much about the score of a rec match no one else in the world cares about.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
It’s not my idea. It’s what’s happening at thousands of tennis clubs all over the world.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
Interesting idea. Probably younger people can swing insanely fast without hurting themselves but also have no chance of being able to control it.
Whats important I think is what's driving the swing, if it's a core driven swing i feel like the big muscles don't swing as fast but they have good power behind it, vs a wristy swing
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Dragy
Legend
I disagree. If I enter a match, it doesn’t matter if it’s rec or GS final. I’m competing and trying my best to win. Of course I can approach some particular match as practice and not care for winning it. But most fun for me is in competition against someone close in level.
Actually, the fact that you need to gauge if it’s important or not to let go of the fear of missing… that’s maybe ego.
When it’s important, and still you can deal with the fear to loose and play freely — that’s sports!
Curious
G.O.A.T.
You’re not playing freely if you’re not swinging freely. Detach from your ego’s needs to find your full potential.
Dragy
Legend
But I do swing freely, it’s the way I play for several years now! I asked “who are you talking about” to actually show you that your generalizations are not applicable. You talk about yourself and maybe what you see in some clubs, maybe many clubs — but that’s just your knowledge and experience, listen to others as well please!
I have different issues that hurt my game, for example, I recently got more aware of how physical tightness presents itself with me. I’ve been trying to hit good balls so hard, that my preparation sometimes became like a bodybuilders’ posing: beautiful, but very tight, everything contracted
The reason behind that was not fear of missing, but desire to execute best shot possible…Once I’m more aware of it, I’m working on being more loose in a proper way: still diligent with footwork, energetic, but just relaxing the arm in the swing. It gives me my fast quality shots where intuitively trying too hard didn’t work out.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Would you swing fast always if you knew you could hit most balls in?But I do swing freely, it’s the way I play for several years now! I asked “who are you talking about” to actually show you that your generalizations are not applicable. You talk about yourself and maybe what you see in some clubs, maybe many clubs — but that’s just your knowledge and experience, listen to others as well please!
I have different issues that hurt my game, for example, I recently got more aware of how physical tightness presents itself with me. I’ve been trying to hit good balls so hard, that my preparation sometimes became like a bodybuilders’ posing: beautiful, but very tight, everything contracted
Once I’m more aware of it, I’m working on being more loose in a proper way: still diligent with footwork, energetic, but just relaxing the arm in the swing. It gives me my fast quality shots where intuitively trying too hard didn’t work out.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Don't you rather mean "you couldn't"?
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I still would, long term planning.
Dragy
Legend
If I was in a match, broke all my strings, and picked a granny’s racquet from some random kind lady to finish the match, I wouldn’t be swinging as fast as I can, I would try to win the match with whatever helps in this situation.
With my normal racquet and in good shape, I would still sometimes block the ball or hit it softish, when situation dictates. For example, I won’t be swinging at 100% when playing knee high ball from inside the service box (happens quite frequently).
Curious
G.O.A.T.
When do you swing at your max? On your serves only?
Dragy
Legend
I think it’s still not “swing at your max”, as it’s not like max distance throw attempt or high jump level of effort. But quite close:
- Serves, quite close
- Deep behind the baseline, when pushed back and want to return deep and heavy
- Some shorter balls that sit up nicely, but not too close to the net, where I need power, yet have some margin for error
Again, I would “woosh my hand” 100% quite often, but sometimes it doesn’t rely on actually 100% load and body effort. Hence not swing near to my max, not too often.
In the meantime, most swings are free and unrestricted, accelerated into the ball. No slowing down to avoid missing — that’s not the way.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Do you think I have a point in this or its total bs? Maybe we can agree at a minimum.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
It seems that he more than agrees in principle, just:
a) He was taken aback when you accused him of not hitting freely, due to his ego.
b) Like most coaches he advocates for 80%, not always 100% power.
c) He gives you more pointers, that seem to fly over your head
Curious
G.O.A.T.
No. Dragy is able to make an argument that black is actually white. He’s an expert in that!It seems that he more than agrees in principle, just:
a) He was taken aback when you accused him of not hitting freely, due to his ego.
b) Like most coaches he advocates for 80%, not always 100% power.
c) He gives you more pointers, that seem to fly over your head
Dragy
Legend
You absolutely have a point if coming from caressing the ball too much, trying to control the swing and ball speed instead of getting control over the shape and placement via swinging free and fast. One shall kind of unlock swinging faster, hitting faster, and that feels like going 100% or even above.
I just think it’s much more technical and habitual, and shall be practiced until it’s comfortable. Fear of missing of course might affect it, but before you got used to swinging faster on practice court, before your brain knows it is safe — you don’t just start hitting out of your shoes in matches. You swing fast in a match once you are pretty confident it’s the best thing you can deliver (like I absolutely cannot be consistent with tap-style second serves, I miss them all).
There’s absolutely a mental part to it, I can get tight and uncertain in a match, but it usually happens because my “swinging 100% on all shots” doesn’t work as I want it to work. But I still try to find the right intensity, because otherwise I loose to any decent player, can win some junkballing and attacking the net, but really lowers my level.
To sum up, ability to swing close to max speed on most balls comes from practice court. And it’s not like you hit screamers in practice — you learn to hit strong enough, safe enough balls in practice with full speed swing. That’s why I talk about rally balls rather than attacking and hitting hard on every ball. At least how it works for me, when it does
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Ok, I’m in partial agreement. There are subjective elements, like how fast is fast enough/too fast etc. Also can’t explain everything fully with words. No worries.You absolutely have a point if coming from caressing the ball too much, trying to control the swing and ball speed instead of getting control over the shape and placement via swinging free and fast. One shall kind of unlock swinging faster, hitting faster, and that feels like going 100% or even above.
I just think it’s much more technical and habitual, and shall be practiced until it’s comfortable. Fear of missing of course might affect it, but before you got used to swinging faster on practice court, before your brain knows it is safe — you don’t just start hitting out of your shoes in matches. You swing fast in a match once you are pretty confident it’s the best thing you can deliver (like I absolutely cannot be consistent with tap-style second serves, I miss them all).
There’s absolutely a mental part to it, I can get tight and uncertain in a match, but it usually happens because my “swinging 100% on all shots” doesn’t work as I want it to work. But I still try to find the right intensity, because otherwise I loose to any decent player, can win some junkballing and attacking the net, but really lowers my level.
To sum up, ability to swing close to max speed on most balls comes from practice court. And it’s not like you hit screamers in practice — you learn to hit strong enough, safe enough balls in practice with full speed swing. That’s why I talk about rally balls rather than attacking and hitting hard on every ball. At least how it works for me, when it does
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Does that mean you can keep up at your full potential, what? 4.0, 4.5 level?, with someone at that caliber in a rally since it's not a rec match?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Which is it? all of us cares or no one cares? Can't be both though.
Classic Curious -- full of contradiction and nonsense
Once again he thinks his limited experience is reality of everyone else.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's a recurring theme with our bud Curious.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
You clearly don’t get the point and I’m not going to explain again and again. Play tennis however you like.Which is it? all of us cares or no one cares? Can't be both though.
Classic Curious -- full of contradiction and nonsense
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
You need your body to be in the right orientation with right spacing and balance to be able to swing freely with good timing and extension - you also need to be able to transfer weight forward through contact. If you haven’t learned how to do that and try to swing freely, you’ll just arm the ball and won’t have much control or spin. Since most rec players at lower levels don’t get into this optimal position, they can’t swing freely and keep the ball in the court - so they don’t. The idea of swinging freely in practice is to try doing it, make a lot of errors and slowly start figuring out how to get the body in the right position at the right time every time to get control.
At the end of the day, tennis is first a physical sport before the mental part adds the icing to the cake. Both on GPPD and in this section, I sometimes see a lot of arguments making it seem like tennis is primarily mental and you can control your level at your will whenever you feel like it. In reality the best players have the best technique and therefore are more confident and consistent under pressure in addition to be able to hit unfettered winners without errors when they get short balls.
If you swing freely in matches without knowing how to get the body into the right position almost all the time (except on defense), you’ll just go down in flames quickly.
At the end of the day, tennis is first a physical sport before the mental part adds the icing to the cake. Both on GPPD and in this section, I sometimes see a lot of arguments making it seem like tennis is primarily mental and you can control your level at your will whenever you feel like it. In reality the best players have the best technique and therefore are more confident and consistent under pressure in addition to be able to hit unfettered winners without errors when they get short balls.
If you swing freely in matches without knowing how to get the body into the right position almost all the time (except on defense), you’ll just go down in flames quickly.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
Agreed. That's what I alluded to, above. When your techniques are good enough (and you're not insane) your mind & subconscious mind let you swing out accordingly, ie "freely".
Naturally if you don't have proper techniques, positioning and you try to swing freely, you'll "go down in flames", and any sane minds would not like that feeling and would try to prevent you from doing it again (meaning you hold back). Unless you're insane!
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Mostly agreed. I believe though that conditions don’t have to be ideal to swing fast and freely. Am I in ideal positions to swing fast here?
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Finally hitting the ball. Well done
Cool.
Not all positions are ideal (impossible though), but good enough to not hold back with fear to miss.
Dragy
Legend
Looks nice. It might get challenged when he on the other side starts feeding you high loopy balls bouncing relatively short.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, high balls would be tricky. Wondering if you could adjust the initial take back height while keeping the stroke the same. For knee to chest level balls it seems very practical as you enter straight into the slot position.
zill
Legend
lol not one cross court, not one.
