"What are you going to do with your life?"

I disagree. Doing what I perceive as a tedious and worthless task, such as repetitive homework where we do 20 of the same type of math problems, should not be a requisite hoop to jump through to "get ahead."

Dude, I realize that I'm only a year older than you, but just hear me out. Your junior year is the worst year of high school, because you finally reach the transition from childhood to adulthood, and you figure you take the more challenging courses, and you overdo it. Instead of taking, like, 1 A.P class, you sign up for four, and then you're swamped. Trust me, in about 4 months, it'll be a lot better, because being a senior is awesome. But please, please, enjoy it, because it's true what they say: your senior year is the fastest year ever. It seems like yesterday that the first day of school was here, and I'm about to graduate in like... a month, a little over. I can't even fathom that.

So, yeah, it seems boring, repetitive, jumping through hoops, but on the upside, you're gonna have a lot of memories and good times in the next year and a half that you'll never have again, so enjoy it. High school = the best time of your life.
 

TonyB

Hall of Fame
Awesome! We gotta play a game of chess sometime :D


I'm afraid that if you have any in-depth knowledge of openings and the middle game, you'd probably crush me. I probably wouldn't be competitive with a 1400 player any longer, to be honest. All of my opening knowledge has practically vanished and I'm only useful in the tightly-confined middle game or endgame nowadays.

If you're a fan of chess and don't have a copy of Deep Fritz and a subscription to Chessbase, you need both. I played around with them several years ago to good benefit. But unless you stay active, your skills wane.

Hold onto your dreams. Just because mine were dashed doesn't mean it will happen to everyone. Keep looking to the future and never look back. That's a killer.
 

buder

Banned
School exists not to teach you the necessary information in a given field, but to teach you to obey and jump through the hoops.

"What does (formal) education often do? It makes a straight cut ditch of a free meandering brook."
- Henry Thoreau.

Exactly. High School normalizes the system of exchange. Most students don't really care about the traditional topics of study. The ones who excel despite not being internally motivated are rewarded. This prepares them for a lifetime of jumping through hoops for rewards. Students who are radically independent and internally driven will have a hard time selling out. They will get weeded out and go to live in trailer parks. The successful ones will go on to become accountants and proctologists. They will live in bland suburbs, breed boring children, and buy patio furniture.
 
I agree with the fact that most high school students don't care about the traditional topics of study, but I think most of us recognize their necessity as classes and can deal with them. I don't think that the independent students get confined to trailer parks,that seems like a rather jaded viewpoint to me.
 

snvplayer

Hall of Fame
Exactly. High School normalizes the system of exchange. Most students don't really care about the traditional topics of study. The ones who excel despite not being internally motivated are rewarded. This prepares them for a lifetime of jumping through hoops for rewards. Students who are radically independent and internally driven will have a hard time selling out. They will get weeded out and go to live in trailer parks. The successful ones will go on to become accountants and proctologists. They will live in bland suburbs, breed boring children, and buy patio furniture.

What is "traditional" topics of studies? You want to go back to the times of Plato and Aristotle and think about how the world started? The world has evolved and developed, it means that there are different topics of studies. People will have different interetests in different areas...
And if you mean "traditional" by philosophy, don't blame the students. The system is set up in a way to provide various topics of studies.

While you criticize and disagree with the system, you call fame, money, social recognition, etc as "success" and "reward"? I guess they meet your "traditional" definition of success and reward.

Students don't drop out of high schools because they are "radically" independent and internally driven. Don't confuse independence and drive with immaturity and laziness.
 
Exactly, and my indifferent attitude is going to sound harsh, but about 25% of the dropouts from my schools are either dead or in juvy, and another 25% are addicted to some form of illicit drugs. Most of the dropouts from my high school fit the schema of the loser dropout. Just saying.
 

Deuce

Banned
You can't speak for all educational institutes. My university department encourages and rewards critical thinking, questioning the established facts/methods, etc.

So... how is this hurtful? I'm sure not all places do this but it's definitely a good thing and helps all of us here to think for ourselves... not just to blindly conform.
^ I feel that when one comes by critical thinking, questioning, etc. on one's own, rather than being encouraged toward that path, it is best.
And formal education does not allow this free development - this "free meandering brook", as Thoreau wrote. At best, as you cite, formal education pushes one in a given direction, complete with its inherent restrictions. At worst, it acts as an obstacle to one's natural capacities to think critically.

I think there's definitely merit in thinking that education is not always the best path for everyone. However, that does not mean that education is useless. Those who are willing to work for it, love it, and enjoy learning will get things out of education others can't dream of outside of it.

My philosophy is, if school's not the right place for you, and you really don't want anything to do with institutionalized education, then that's perfectly fine. Go do what you feel is best for yourself 'cause everyone's different.

For those who love to pursue a higher education and gain knowledge from more academic fields of study, make the best of your educational opportunities.
^ That's fine with me.

It may be boredom, but the fact of the matter is that people who don't have a college degree, on the whole, earn less money and tend to have shorter lives than those that earn a degree. There's something to be said for having enough discipline to be able to jump through the requisite hoops.
^ Indeed, a college degree will make it easier to acquire a higher paying job. But that certainly doesn't mean that true fulfillment will be inherent in that job. It's often quite the opposite.
Believe it or not, there are people whose nature doesn't allow them to jump through hoops and obey things that they don't agree with simply in order to gain a financial reward. There are people whose aim is significantly higher.

Exactly. High School normalizes the system of exchange. Most students don't really care about the traditional topics of study. The ones who excel despite not being internally motivated are rewarded. This prepares them for a lifetime of jumping through hoops for rewards. Students who are radically independent and internally driven will have a hard time selling out. They will get weeded out and go to live in trailer parks. The successful ones will go on to become accountants and proctologists. They will live in bland suburbs, breed boring children, and buy patio furniture.
^ ... and buy a minivan.
Good post.

Students don't drop out of high schools because they are "radically" independent and internally driven. Don't confuse independence and drive with immaturity and laziness.
^ Where do you get your information?
There are a lot of intelligent people who didn't/don't do well in school. And it has nothing to do with immaturity or laziness.

I quit high school when I was 15 - one month into grade 9 (or secondary 3). And I never went back to any form of schooling.
I didn't quit because my family was financially priviledged. Far from it. Money was never my thing - as long as I had enough to survive, I was ok.
I stopped high school because I wasn't interested in anything that I was being told to learn. I was bored. So I left school and learned about the things that interested me. I learned by observation on the bus. I learned on my own at the library. I learned by reading books I wanted to read. Many people compliment me on my writing. I learned how to write properly by reading well written books - I didn't learn it in school. And I write better than many (most?) university graduates. And I hope to continue to improve my writing, and to learn more things in other areas that I'm interested in.
I learned what I wanted to learn, and I learned it my way, at my pace. In high school, I was not permitted to learn what I wanted to learn. I was not permitted to learn my way at my pace. And so, for me, high school was a very restrictive environment.

In the end, I quit school because I wanted to learn something.

Exactly, and my indifferent attitude is going to sound harsh, but about 25% of the dropouts from my schools are either dead or in juvy, and another 25% are addicted to some form of illicit drugs. Most of the dropouts from my high school fit the schema of the loser dropout. Just saying.
^ And anyone who chooses to drop out has a 100% choice to be one of those negative statistics, or to not be.
 

snvplayer

Hall of Fame
^ I feel that when one comes by critical thinking, questioning, etc. on one's own, rather than being encouraged toward that path, it is best.
And formal education does not allow this free development - this "free meandering brook", as Thoreau wrote. At best, as you cite, formal education pushes one in a given direction, complete with its inherent restrictions. At worst, it acts as an obstacle to one's natural capacities to think critically.


^ That's fine with me.


^ Indeed, a college degree will make it easier to acquire a higher paying job. But that certainly doesn't mean that true fulfillment will be inherent in that job. It's often quite the opposite.
Believe it or not, there are people whose nature doesn't allow them to jump through hoops and obey things that they don't agree with simply in order to gain a financial reward. There are people whose aim is significantly higher.


^ ... and buy a minivan.
Good post.


^ Where do you get your information?
There are a lot of intelligent people who didn't/don't do well in school. And it has nothing to do with immaturity or laziness.

I quit high school when I was 15 - one month into grade 9 (or secondary 3). And I never went back to any form of schooling.
I didn't quit because my family was financially priviledged. Far from it. Money was never my thing - as long as I had enough to survive, I was ok.
I stopped high school because I wasn't interested in anything that I was being told to learn. I was bored. So I left school and learned about the things that interested me. I learned by observation on the bus. I learned on my own at the library. I learned by reading books I wanted to read. Many people compliment me on my writing. I learned how to write properly by reading well written books - I didn't learn it in school. And I write better than many (most?) university graduates. And I hope to continue to improve my writing, and to learn more things in other areas that I'm interested in.
I learned what I wanted to learn, and I learned it my way, at my pace. In high school, I was not permitted to learn what I wanted to learn. I was not permitted to learn my way at my pace. And so, for me, high school was a very restrictive environment.

In the end, I quit school because I wanted to learn something.


^ And anyone who chooses to drop out has a 100% choice to be one of those negative statistics, or to not be.

Well, I didn't claim that all high-school drop-outs weren't intelligent or indepedent. Nor did I say that your grades reflect your intelligence. But you'd be also wrong to say there is no immaturity or laziness invovled in many people who drop out high school.

Perhaps you don't equate immaturity to some of the things that I would.
Unlike you did, most high school drop outs find their way into troubles; crimes, drugs, or whatever.

Educational system exists to encourage students to develop whatever you developed - to think independently and critically, to learn and exchange ideas, and so on. Perhaps I have been fortunate enough to have been a part of good institutions. I have met teachers who spiked my interest in certain area, were willing to spend time so that I'd learn the material....Also, I have met teachers who didn't give two craps about teaching or whatever....

So it doesn't mean that the system is doing a particularly great job in it. Yet, it doesn't mean that the system has failed either. After all, it is the system that has allowed us to live in a more developed and advanced world. (Let's not get into "does more developed mean "better"?).

The society has evolved in such a way that it encourages people to equate success in school will bring sucess in life. The place sometimes turns into a competition rather than a place of education. It has definately tarnished the true intention of education and academia.
 
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Deuce

Banned
Well, I didn't claim that all high-school drop-outs weren't intelligent or indepedent. Nor did I say that your grades reflect your intelligence. But you'd be also wrong to say there is no immaturity or laziness invovled in many people who drop out high school.
^ You strongly suggested that immaturity and laziness are inherent ingredients in drop outs.
I corrected you.
Indeed, some drop out due to immaturity and/or laziness. And others drop out because they need to work to earn money for their family. And others drop out because they find the school environment uninteresting and lacking in challenge.
I apparently paint with a narrower brush than do you.

Perhaps you don't equate immaturity to some of the things that I would.
Unlike you did, most high school drop outs find their way into troubles; crimes, drugs, or whatever.
^ Unlike you do, I prefer not to latch on to the stereotype bandwagon.
Some drop outs get into trouble after they drop out. Some don't.
For some, it's a very good decision to stop school and pursue their true interests.

Educational system exists to encourage students to develop whatever you developed - to think independently and critically, to learn and exchange ideas, and so on.
^ This looks like something you copied directly out of a pamphlet promoting a college.

Perhaps I have been fortunate enough to have been a part of good institutions. I have met teachers who spiked my interest in certain area, were willing to spend time so that I'd learn the material....Also, I have met teachers who didn't give two craps about teaching or whatever....
^ Based on my experiences and observations, mediocre and bad teachers greatly outnumber good teachers, unfortunately.
So I decided to become my own teacher in a sense - I chose (and still choose) from whom I was going to learn. And none of those people were professional teachers. In fact, some of them were even dead.

So it doesn't mean that the system is doing a particularly great job in it. Yet, it doesn't mean that the system has failed either. After all, it is the system that has allowed us to live in a more developed and advanced world. (Let's not get into "does more developed mean "better"?).
^ No... because if we "got into" that, your point in defence of the education system wouldn't hold water.
 

OrangeOne

Legend
The society has evolved in such a way that it encourages people to equate success in school will bring sucess in life. The place sometimes turns into a competition rather than a place of education. It has definately tarnished the true intention of education and academia.

The ultimate problem is that society is geared to evalute success in monetary terms.

The sooner people realise that money is irrelevant to happiness, things will improve. I'm realistic enough to know that this is unlikely to happen on a grand scale.

I also wish more people would realise that 'success' (by almost any definition at all) is not important when it is compared to living a life that is true to yourself and generous to others.
 

snvplayer

Hall of Fame
I worded my statement the way I did because I was making a point to the person who I was making an argument against. It doesn't mean I am not aware of people dropping out for other reasons.

Seriously, what are the chances of high school drop outs to get invovled in some kind of criminal activity? Or at least among those who drop out because they couldn't keep themselves out of trouble?

Dropping out of high school.....may work out for some, but probably not for most students. You can accuse me of being brainwashed, close minded or whatever... A lot interests can still be kept and nurtured while you attend high school. Being in school actually could help them to follow their interests through programs, clubs, friends, teachers, etc, etc....

Most importantly, because it's not a decision you can easily reverse. For every person you find who was glad to drop out of school, you could find a person who regrets dropping out of school as well.

Well, it maybe sound exactly like words out of some catalogue because that's what educational system is SUPPOSED to do. How did whole academia and school start? From as much reading as you have done, I am sure you know the origin of it...

I guess our views on teachers differ slightly, though I agree there will be more mediocre teachers than good teachers...Maybe you just need some humility? (this was a joke)

My last statement wasn't to say that the world has become a better place, but more advanced and developed. And educational system has been a big part of it. We could get further into this..
 

snvplayer

Hall of Fame
The ultimate problem is that society is geared to evalute success in monetary terms.

The sooner people realise that money is irrelevant to happiness, things will improve. I'm realistic enough to know that this is unlikely to happen on a grand scale.

I also wish more people would realise that 'success' (by almost any definition at all) is not important when it is compared to living a life that is true to yourself and generous to others.

well success is a subjective and relative term, right? In the days before Capitalism, whoever could hunt and get most food was probably the most successful man in the tribe.

But you can't deny the importance of money, either. In today's society, you can't do anything with NO money. I don't think money brings happiness, but I do think lack of money can take away happiness. Just imagine you have to work 80 hours a week just to provide basic needs of life to your family. Where will you find "happiness"?
 

Deuce

Banned
Seriously, what are the chances of high school drop outs to get invovled in some kind of criminal activity?
^ 50/50.
Or at least among those who drop out because they couldn't keep themselves out of trouble?
^ More than 50%.
But not all those who drop out are kids who can't stay out of trouble. Far from it.

Dropping out of high school.....may work out for some, but probably not for most students.
^ I would drop the "but probably not for most students".
It works for some, and not for others.
You can accuse me of being brainwashed, close minded or whatever... A lot interests can still be kept and nurtured while you attend high school. Being in school actually could help them to follow their interests through programs, clubs, friends, teachers, etc, etc....
^ Yes... But for those who find no interest in the limited and restrictive subjects that school covers, the only logical choice is to seek their knowledge through another means.

Most importantly, because it's not a decision you can easily reverse. For every person you find who was glad to drop out of school, you could find a person who regrets dropping out of school as well.
^ I never disputed this. It's not a decision to be made without much thought.

Well, it maybe sound exactly like words out of some catalogue because that's what educational system is SUPPOSED to do. How did whole academia and school start? From as much reading as you have done, I am sure you know the origin of it...
^ Many elements of our culture began with noble intentions and aspirations... only to be exploited and abused to the point where the positive eventually became a negative.
 
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snvplayer

Hall of Fame
Hmm, I should look out wat % of students drop out of school because they couldn't stay away from troubles..

I guess interesting statistics would be what percentage of non-criminal student to be involved in crimes? (I said non-criminal because I couldn't think of any better terms..).

Well in order for dropping out to work, the kid would need a pretty good discipline, ability to self-learn, and strong desire to learn...(if we consider that dropping out should be substituted with another form of learning.)..A lot of teen-agers do lack these quailities. So I am still going to say "most". But I guess we can differ..

Yes it would be logical to look for another means to fulfil their interests. I guess, my question is "is dropping out of high school necessary to do that?" If the student retained both school and his interest, s/he is going to be that much more well rounded.

Hmmm...I think only very few originated from noble intentions and aspirations. Many pretended to be noble and altruistic to hide their self-interest.
Anyway, I guess no good can come without bad and no bad can come with no good.......I don't even know if I make sense any more....

So, just out of curiousity, what were your interests? Beside the obvious interest in tennis...
 

Nadal_Monfils

Semi-Pro
Dude, I realize that I'm only a year older than you, but just hear me out. Your junior year is the worst year of high school, because you finally reach the transition from childhood to adulthood, and you figure you take the more challenging courses, and you overdo it. Instead of taking, like, 1 A.P class, you sign up for four, and then you're swamped. Trust me, in about 4 months, it'll be a lot better, because being a senior is awesome. But please, please, enjoy it, because it's true what they say: your senior year is the fastest year ever. It seems like yesterday that the first day of school was here, and I'm about to graduate in like... a month, a little over. I can't even fathom that.

So, yeah, it seems boring, repetitive, jumping through hoops, but on the upside, you're gonna have a lot of memories and good times in the next year and a half that you'll never have again, so enjoy it. High school = the best time of your life.

The problem isn't a strenuous workload, I feel that freshman and sophomore year were just as hard as this year. In fact, my two AP classes are my favorite classes (English and US History) and they are also the classes I have my best grades in.
 

SlapShot

Hall of Fame
^ Indeed, a college degree will make it easier to acquire a higher paying job. But that certainly doesn't mean that true fulfillment will be inherent in that job. It's often quite the opposite.
Believe it or not, there are people whose nature doesn't allow them to jump through hoops and obey things that they don't agree with simply in order to gain a financial reward. There are people whose aim is significantly higher.

That's where the idea of "work to live, not live to work" comes in. I don't particularly enjoy my time at the office, but luckily, I'm not here 60+ hours per week, and they pay me better than a job that I'm truly passionate about would right now.

I still have hobbies that I truly enjoy (tennis and music), am still involved in the music industry, and don't have to worry about where my next meal is coming from.
 

origmarm

Hall of Fame
While I agree with the sentiment expressed by some here that it is not about money and success (because it isn't), I would love to know how many of the people that followed their heart truly support themselves. It's an easy case to argue to follow your heart, what you want out of life and a path to personal learning if someone else be it a person or the state (i.e. the taxpaying people) are paying for it, or partially paying for it (through subsidised housing, medical care etc..). It's also easy when you don't have anyone that depends on you.

Its easy to dismiss the merits of standard education when you misunderstand it's purpose. To learn, yes, but not really to learn, to give you a recognised universal skillset to get a job. That's all. If you learn something interesting about the world and humanity on the way that's a laudable goal. But it's not the point. We school our children, not to teach them, but to give them a standard set of tools to use to earn money in the future. To really teach them, is a parent's role. If you have the intelligence to drop out of school and learn yourself and make your way, that's great. Many don't

While I for one made the grave mistake of being overly motivated by money earlier on in my life I feel that while that brook should meander as free as it can, sometimes you need to cut the banks and divert it a bit to water your crops and grow food. Dreams, desires and passions dosed with realism are more powerful than passions alone.

Deuce I feel has ideas on life that while noble are very different from mine.
"Too much Thoreau will kill you, just as sure as none at all...." :)
 

snvplayer

Hall of Fame
While I agree with the sentiment expressed by some here that it is not about money and success (because it isn't), I would love to know how many of the people that followed their heart truly support themselves. It's an easy case to argue to follow your heart, what you want out of life and a path to personal learning if someone else be it a person or the state (i.e. the taxpaying people) are paying for it, or partially paying for it (through subsidised housing, medical care etc..). It's also easy when you don't have anyone that depends on you.

Its easy to dismiss the merits of standard education when you misunderstand it's purpose. To learn, yes, but not really to learn, to give you a recognised universal skillset to get a job. That's all. If you learn something interesting about the world and humanity on the way that's a laudable goal. But it's not the point. We school our children, not to teach them, but to give them a standard set of tools to use to earn money in the future. To really teach them, is a parent's role. If you have the intelligence to drop out of school and learn yourself and make your way, that's great. Many don't

While I for one made the grave mistake of being overly motivated by money earlier on in my life I feel that while that brook should meander as free as it can, sometimes you need to cut the banks and divert it a bit to water your crops and grow food. Dreams, desires and passions dosed with realism are more powerful than passions alone.

Deuce I feel has ideas on life that while noble are very different from mine.
"Too much Thoreau will kill you, just as sure as none at all...." :)


If we compare today's society to anicient civilization where people made a living out of hunting and harvesting crops. Most member was expected to take part in the labor to survive (well, maybe except for the leaders). Wouldn't you say working and earning money are similar to labor in those days? We work and get money in return.

I think it's important to follow your heart, desire, and interest, yet it's also important to find out how you can utilize them to make contributions to society -euphemistically speaking.

In a sense, school is perhaps the easiest place to learn about these. You encounter various areas which can trigger interest in you or not. And I also think this is just one aspect of educational system.

When done properly, school can provide mutiple rewards; you can develop criticial, analytical, and logical thinking skills, which would be essential abilities in life, and you can also develop a sense of discipline and a value of hardwork. You learn to do something that you may not entirely enjoy, and you also realize that, with hardwork, there is a corresponding reward. Although your hardwork isn't always properly compensated in real world, but work ethic is an important quaility to have. It's one of the reasons why I think grades speak more than they do, but can't judge people based on that.
 

jmverdugo

Hall of Fame
You should do whatever seems right to do at the moment, you can never know that you are on the wrong path if you have not been in the right one. Live may be short but there is time to make mistakes and learn from them, I beleive that is better to spend your live trying than your oldness regreting the things you never tried.

Also, sometimes, things fall in to their place by themself, sometimes it takes a lot of effort to make them happen. You will know what do do, if you are not happy or are bored to death, it is time to make a change, it is time to try again.

I am with the people that thinks a a degree wont kill you, in fact starting to study, anything, is a way to find out what you want to do with your life.
 

SlapShot

Hall of Fame
With regard to college, etc - if you don't feel that you're ready to attend college, don't. Most likely, you'll go through class aimlessly, and won't glean the amount of information from your classes as if you were focused on learning.

I personally took a semester off, and it changed my perspective. I went back, and was able to really focus on what I wanted out of each class. It took that time off for me to really gain that focus.
 
When I was in college, I saw a guy on the courts who looked to be about 70 years old, shirtless, hitting against a wall with pretty good pace and consistency.

I don't know what will happen in between, but that's who I want to end up as.
 

LuckyR

Legend
The perfect setup is to:

1- have a job you love

and

2- this job makes a ton of money.

That's a no-brainer, if you have the opportunity, take it. For everyone else, which is a majority, you've got to decide: a job you can tolerate but certainly don't love, that makes a ton of money -- or -- a job you love that doesn't make much. One benefit of taking the first option is that you can do your passion outside of you job and still have a ton of money.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
The perfect setup is to:

1- have a job you love

and

2- this job makes a ton of money.

That's a no-brainer, if you have the opportunity, take it. For everyone else, which is a majority, you've got to decide: a job you can tolerate but certainly don't love, that makes a ton of money -- or -- a job you love that doesn't make much. One benefit of taking the first option is that you can do your passion outside of you job and still have a ton of money.



This is NEVER a no-brainer!

Even that setup you defined still gives you ton of headache. Is the job you love loved by those you love? If it's not, you'll be in a world of pain. Even a job that makes you 10 million may be too little sometimes.

There's no guarantee of anything.
 

LuckyR

Legend
This is NEVER a no-brainer!

Even that setup you defined still gives you ton of headache. Is the job you love loved by those you love? If it's not, you'll be in a world of pain. Even a job that makes you 10 million may be too little sometimes.

There's no guarantee of anything.


Sounds like "paralysis by over-analysis", to me...
 
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