What did Djokovic do that Alcaraz didn't?

[btsjungkook]

I thought that Alcaraz was a bad match up for Medvevdev but then Med won. I also thought that Medvevdev was a bad match up for Novak but he won in straights. What did Djokovic do against Medvevdev that Alcaraz failed in that match? Would Alcaraz have beaten Djokovic if he went to the final? What do you guys think?

 

[BrooklynNY]

His serve, despite not hitting more MPH than Alcaraz is light years better than Alcaraz.

No one who stands in the doubles alley to hit a kick serve out wide like a 4.0 doubles player is a great server. Novak has become a great server

 

[socallefty]

Djokovic was 9-5 vs Medvedev before Sunday including being 4-1 after the 2021 USO final. He figured out in Bercy after the 2021 USO final that the best way to end points against Medvedev is to come to net including to S/V periodically. He has been executing it successfully ever since.

Djokovic played very well on Sunday particularly at the net and on big points. Carlos didn’t play well and maybe expected an easier match in the semifinal.

 

[Djokodalerer31]

Djokovic was 9-5 vs Medvedev before Sunday including being 4-1 after the 2021 USO final. He figured out in Bercy after the 2021 USO final that the best way to end points against Medvedev is to come to net including to S/V periodically. He has been executing it successfully ever since.

Djokovic played very well on Sunday particularly at the net and on big points. Carlos didn’t play well and maybe expected an easier match in the semifinal.

Still shame about that Dubai match...for some reason he didn't play that clever tennis against Medvedev that day, otherwise wouldn't have ended like it did...

 

[WeekendTennisHack]

Sometimes people overanalyze. Medvedev believed that he actually did something, that is, had a strategy and it worked. The reality is, Alcaraz just didn't play as well as he can and Medy happened to beat him, and then confirmation bias sets in thinking what you did worked.

 

[Kralingen]

Got to play an injured and hampered Medvedev?

Though I think it’s clear Djokovic is still the best hardcourter in the world, Carlos needs to take that title from him with a couple big victories over him. Djokovic can execute much more consistently and robustly over 5 sets with less dips, errors, and much quicker adjustment than Raz. He’s also a smarter player.

 

[Lauren_Girl']

Better serve and better return than Alcaraz? Better on key points. Better in the tie-break.
I also thought Medvedev was a good matchup for Alcaraz but then again, they only had 1 HC match... Small sample to certify Alcaraz likes Medvedev's game...) And Medvedev hates IW conditions, we should've known the USO surface would give a different result.

Medvedev a bad match up for Nole? I think it'd important to reassess Medvedev's 5 wins.
- WTF 2020 : dead rubber match. Djokovic completely tanked it. No way around it.
- Cincinnati 2019 : Injury (left shoulder) which forced him to pull out from the USO a couple of weeks later
- USO 2021 : Djokovic eaten by the pressure of the CYGS and exhausted from his multiple 4 and 5 sets.
- Dubaï 2023 : transition tournament for Nole. Took place 1 month after AO and he already knew he couldn't play IW/Miami. And he had flu (confirmed by Goran) Honestly don't think Nole cared about Dubaï... at all.
- Monaco 2019 : Djokovic's worst tournament, in the worst, windiest conditions he's ever played in his career...

Not taking anything away from these 5 wins but we've all seen what happens when healthy, rested and motivated Djokovic shows up (USO23, AO21, Paris21,...)

 

[Alcawrath]

Djokovic was 9-5 vs Medvedev before Sunday including being 4-1 after the 2021 USO final. He figured out in Bercy after the 2021 USO final that the best way to end points against Medvedev is to come to net including to S/V periodically. He has been executing it successfully ever since.

Djokovic played very well on Sunday particularly at the net and on big points. Carlos didn’t play well and maybe expected an easier match in the semifinal.

That's an interesting point, but Alcaraz lost because Medvedev was eating him alive trying to serve and volley and Alcaraz didn't re-adjust

 

[btsjungkook]

That's an interesting point, but Alcaraz lost because Medvedev was eating him alive trying to serve and volley and Alcaraz didn't re-adjust

But I thought Carlos was the better serve and volley player than Novak so I was quite surprised when Novak's volleys were so good against Medvevdev.

 

[Alcawrath]

But I thought Carlos was the better serve and volley player than Novak so I was quite surprised when Novak's volleys were so good against Medvevdev.

Carlos definitely wasn't the better serve and volley player at the US Open this year. His positioning and directional control of his volleys really cost him in that semi final

 

[DogInSpace]

Better serve and better return than Alcaraz? Better on key points. Better in the tie-break.
I also thought Medvedev was a good matchup for Alcaraz but then again, they only had 1 HC match... Small sample to certify Alcaraz likes Medvedev's game...) And Medvedev hates IW conditions, we should've known the USO surface would give a different result.

Medvedev a bad match up for Nole? I think it'd important to reassess Medvedev's 5 wins.
- WTF 2020 : dead rubber match. Djokovic completely tanked it. No way around it.
- Cincinnati 2019 : Injury (left shoulder) which forced him to pull out from the USO a couple of weeks later
- USO 2021 : Djokovic eaten by the pressure of the CYGS and exhausted from his multiple 4 and 5 sets.
- Dubaï 2023 : transition tournament for Nole. Took place 1 month after AO and he already knew he couldn't play IW/Miami. And he had flu (confirmed by Goran) Honestly don't think Nole cared about Dubaï... at all.
- Monaco 2019 : Djokovic's worst tournament, in the worst, windiest conditions he's ever played in his career...

Not taking anything away from these 5 wins but we've all seen what happens when healthy, rested and motivated Djokovic shows up (USO23, AO21, Paris21,...)

You make very elaborate and well thought out reasons for Djokovic performences vs Med.

Why won't you try that with Medvedev? It's obvious that Med on Friday vs Alcaraz and Med on Sunday were 2 different players. Try to put some context into it. Medvedev was essentialy humiliated by Alcaraz in their past meetings. It's obvious and understandable that his focus as well as his whole mental energy was directed at that SF. Alcaraz was his nemesis and he desperately needed that win or else he could become his pigeon forever. That was his big final and in a way he had to prove to himself as well as to everybody that he is still here and he is not going to let a wonder kid to throw him into the trash once again. Just listen to what he was saying in the press conference before and after that SF.

When he finally managed to climb that mountain and send home a guy against whom he had embarrassing loses before it is very difficult to recharge the batteries and fill up your mind with new and fresh mental energy to play basically "another final" with only one day in between.

 

[Crocodile]

I would imagine that Medvedev beating Alcaraz in the semis would have taken a lot of physical and mental energy out of him and he had to play at his very best so by the time he played Novak he probably was slightly off his absolute best whereas Novak was able to hang on and win the 2nd set tiebreak which had big implications for the match.
If Novak has lost the 2nd set things could have been different. With Carlos I think he is still learning to come to terms with continuous grand slam pressure you need to deal with and he is only a young guy.

 

[uscwang]

I thought that Alcaraz was a bad match up for Medvevdev but then Med won. I also thought that Medvevdev was a bad match up for Novak but he won in straights. What did Djokovic do against Medvevdev that Alcaraz failed in that match? Would Alcaraz have beaten Djokovic if he went to the final? What do you guys think?

That depends on who you think is a bad match up for whom

 

[McGradey]

- Consistency and particularly the ability to hit hard consistently without making a lot of errors
- Better serve; placement and disguise
- Better return of serve
- Better shot selection
- Doing just enough to win the point at critical moments; lockdown mode

 

[Mike Sams]

Better serve and better return than Alcaraz? Better on key points. Better in the tie-break.
I also thought Medvedev was a good matchup for Alcaraz but then again, they only had 1 HC match... Small sample to certify Alcaraz likes Medvedev's game...) And Medvedev hates IW conditions, we should've known the USO surface would give a different result.

Medvedev a bad match up for Nole? I think it'd important to reassess Medvedev's 5 wins.
- WTF 2020 : dead rubber match. Djokovic completely tanked it. No way around it.
- Cincinnati 2019 : Injury (left shoulder) which forced him to pull out from the USO a couple of weeks later
- USO 2021 : Djokovic eaten by the pressure of the CYGS and exhausted from his multiple 4 and 5 sets.
- Dubaï 2023 : transition tournament for Nole. Took place 1 month after AO and he already knew he couldn't play IW/Miami. And he had flu (confirmed by Goran) Honestly don't think Nole cared about Dubaï... at all.
- Monaco 2019 : Djokovic's worst tournament, in the worst, windiest conditions he's ever played in his career...

Not taking anything away from these 5 wins but we've all seen what happens when healthy, rested and motivated Djokovic shows up (USO23, AO21, Paris21,...)

He didn't play anyone worth a damn leading up to the final this year. So he was fresh.
In 2021, he had to play the world number 4 in a brutal 5 setter in the SF that took all the energy out of him for the final.

 

[Mike Sams]

- Consistency and particularly the ability to hit hard consistently without making a lot of errors
- Better serve; placement and disguise
- Better return of serve
- Better shot selection
- Doing just enough to win the point at critical moments; lockdown mode

The second set should've gone to Medvedev. Might've changed the whole dynamic of the match.

 

[McGradey]

The second set should've gone to Medvedev. Might've changed the whole dynamic of the match.

It should've, and it may have turned the match — even Djokovic said as much. I guess that's testament to his ability to sense opportunities and critical points. Experience.

 

[FeroBango]

Sometimes people overanalyze. Medvedev believed that he actually did something, that is, had a strategy and it worked. The reality is, Alcaraz just didn't play as well as he can and Medy happened to beat him, and then confirmation bias sets in thinking what you did worked.

Period. By repeated admission, it was the match of his life, on par with the USO final. Raz could have played better himself.

 

[Subway Tennis]

His serve, despite not hitting more MPH than Alcaraz is light years better than Alcaraz.

No one who stands in the doubles alley to hit a kick serve out wide like a 4.0 doubles player is a great server. Novak has become a great server

Agree totally.

 

[ChrisRF]

Sometimes people overanalyze. Medvedev believed that he actually did something, that is, had a strategy and it worked. The reality is, Alcaraz just didn't play as well as he can and Medy happened to beat him, and then confirmation bias sets in thinking what you did worked.

Also Djokovic really didn't play well in the Wimbledon final for once. If he played a normal match there, the Alcaraz hype wouldn't have become THAT big. Alcaraz is by far the best of the rest over a whole season, but on certain types of hardcourt Medvedev is on a similar level if not slightly better. IMO nothing strange happened after Wimbledon. Wimbledon itself was the surprise of the year.

 

[socallefty]

I think Medvedev’s strategy was to play long rallies, keep unforced errors down and take Djokovic’s legs out - which is what Carlos did at Wimbledon. Medvedev thought that if he tied it at a set apiece after two sets, it would be tough for Djokovic to outlast his younger body and win two out of three in the next three sets especially if he kept rallies long. His problem is that he didn’t win the second set and found himself in a 0-2 hole that he couldn’t recover from emotionally.

I think the match would have been a very long one like Wimbledon if Medvedev had won the set point in the second set. Just like Wimbledon might have been a straight sets win for Djokovic if he had won his setpoints in the 2nd set TB instead of choking.

 

[FeroBango]

Also Djokovic really didn't play well in the Wimbledon final for once. If he played a normal match there, the Alcaraz hype wouldn't have become THAT big. Alcaraz is by far the best of the rest over a whole season, but on certain types of hardcourt Medvedev is on a similar level if not slightly better. IMO nothing strange happened after Wimbledon. Wimbledon itself was the surprise of the year.

That's how winning and losing works. The loser is by definition the inferior player on the day like Raz was against Meddy

 

[JasonZ]

Also Djokovic really didn't play well in the Wimbledon final for once. If he played a normal match there, the Alcaraz hype wouldn't have become THAT big. Alcaraz is by far the best of the rest over a whole season, but on certain types of hardcourt Medvedev is on a similar level if not slightly better. IMO nothing strange happened after Wimbledon. Wimbledon itself was the surprise of the year.

djokovic played very well in the first set of the wimby final. then he played sometimes well and sometimes bad. but he did the same against federer wimby 2019, thiem ao 2020 and tsitsipas fo 2021 finals. the difference was the opponent. alcaraz played better than those players and even much better in the 5th set.

 

[Wurm]

- Monaco 2019 : Djokovic's worst tournament, in the worst, windiest conditions he's ever played in his career...

"Novak is, I think, the best difficult weather player in conditions of anyone that's ever played the game" - Todd Woodbridge. That'll never not be funny

 

[FeroBango]

djokovic played very well in the first set of the wimby final. then he played sometimes well and sometimes bad. but he did the same against federer wimby 2019, thiem ao 2020 and tsitsipas fo 2021 finals. the difference was the opponent. alcaraz played better than those players and even much better in the 5th set.

Yup. Djokovic was locked in in set 5. It needed Alcaraz to raise his level through the roof for Nole to lose.

 

[socallefty]

"Novak is, I think, the best difficult weather player in conditions of anyone that's ever played the game" - Todd Woodbridge. That'll never not be funny

Lost all respect for Todd’s tennis brain if he said that.

 

[ChrisRF]

djokovic played very well in the first set of the wimby final. then he played sometimes well and sometimes bad. but he did the same against federer wimby 2019, thiem ao 2020 and tsitsipas fo 2021 finals. the difference was the opponent. alcaraz played better than those players and even much better in the 5th set.

Yeah, I actually agree with that. Alcaraz indeed is better than all of those opponents and did very well to capitalize. It was mainly the serve that was subpar for Djokovic. He couldn't save himself with first serves unlike he did so often lately after he improved the serve with Ivanisevic. And for once he lost a tiebreak after a solid lead. But, as we both agreed on, such things happen from time to time, and Alcaraz is the most dangerous opponent to get results out of it.

 

[onehandbh]

But I thought Carlos was the better serve and volley player than Novak so I was quite surprised when Novak's volleys were so good against Medvevdev.

Carlos has youth and speed, but Djokovic has a much more accurate serve. Serving to the deuce court, Djokovic doesn't have to stand so far to the right to be able to hit a good wide serve. By standing more towards the middle, it opens up the T serve for him.

 

[tennis_pro]

win

 

[nevermind]

Better shot selection, higher shot tolerance. More clutch, won the crucial tiebreak in the second set which killed Medvedev both physically and psychologically.

Also, Novak was better at picking a time when to serve and volley and his serve bothered Medvedev more in general. Novak has a better slice serve than Alcaraz(it's more precise, and it stays lower with more sidespin pushing Medvedev basically into the stands/crowds, off the court on the deuce side) which enabled him to win these points on the deuce side almost every time with an easy volley. Djokovic's slice serve(especially on the deuce side of the court) is almost Federer-like in quality.

Alcaraz got too cocky with serve and volleying against Medvedev(and net rushing in general) and made an overkill of it, especially on the ad side.

 

[Move]

Djokovic had a clear plan to play Medvedev. Carlos has not figured that out yet, being constant coached from the box. He needs to do better himself in that department. Constant coaching seemed to cause doubt & hesitation in his rallies and strokes

 

[FeroBango]

Djokovic had a clear plan to play Medvedev. Carlos has not figured that out yet, being constant coached from the box. He needs to do better himself in that department. Constant coaching seemed to cause doubt & hesitation in his rallies and strokes

Djokovic was better but the Serbian team was almost as notoriously talking to Novak as the Spanish team did to Carlos. You cannot have possibly missed this if you'd watched what was going on.

 

[jl809]

Djoker served better, volleyed better for sure. Hung nice and tough in the rallies off both wings.

No question Meddy didn’t play as well as in the SF ofc. Strategy was all wrong, didn’t return as well and wasn’t aggressive enough in general

I just listened to the tennis podcast this morning and they went in really hard on him compared to being full of praise for Ruud after the RG F. Apparently he was underpowered on his shots too

 

[mike danny]

Better serve and better return than Alcaraz? Better on key points. Better in the tie-break.
I also thought Medvedev was a good matchup for Alcaraz but then again, they only had 1 HC match... Small sample to certify Alcaraz likes Medvedev's game...) And Medvedev hates IW conditions, we should've known the USO surface would give a different result.

Medvedev a bad match up for Nole? I think it'd important to reassess Medvedev's 5 wins.
- WTF 2020 : dead rubber match. Djokovic completely tanked it. No way around it.

It wasn't a dead rubber match, it was only the second match for both.

- Cincinnati 2019 : Injury (left shoulder) which forced him to pull out from the USO a couple of weeks later

He didn't pull out, he played 3 matches and then retired vs Stan after 2 sets.

 

[mike danny]

djokovic played very well in the first set of the wimby final. then he played sometimes well and sometimes bad. but he did the same against federer wimby 2019, thiem ao 2020 and tsitsipas fo 2021 finals. the difference was the opponent. alcaraz played better than those players and even much better in the 5th set.

And unlike Federer, he had no mental block against Djokovic since they haven't played 50 matches.

 

[Chanwan]

Carlos serve and return was under par (much slower than usual serve) vs Medvedev. His ground game was under par. The net was were he won his points. Couldn't rally and finish points well from the back court and didn't use his variety, including the slice, enough. Went into Sinner mode at times trying to blast through Medv. His shots bounces higher than Novak's which Meddy prefers
Also, Medv was 12/10.

Medvedev returned wayyyyy under par (frankly like a brain dead player) vs Novak and served slightly worse too, compared to the Alcaraz match.
He didn't have the same oomph in his groundies, maybe partially due to Novak

His groundies were fine though, but Novak's own ground game was way better than Carlos'

And he just played better and smarter.
Also, Medv was 6/10 at best.

Gave his first service game away and in effect the set. Didn't take his chances in the 2nd. And didn't put up much of a fight in the third

Adios amigos

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Djokovic serve and return combo was much better than Alcaraz and it hurt meddy more.

Novak also exploited meddy’s court positioning better by playing one of his best matches ever at the net.

Djoko was also very solid in the long rallies and stayed with meds baseline game well being strong on FH and BH side. At times he even beat meddy at his own game but he mixed it up well.

In the end he just had the answer for whatever med threw at him on the day.

Meddy was brilliant in the 2nd set and had he won it may have changed things a lot and outcome less certain. Djoko was more clutch on the big points compared to Carlos too.

Djoko is probably the best indoor player ever as well so that made it tougher for meddy and harder for Carlos in his SF with mad lad.

 

[nachiket nolefam]

His serve, despite not hitting more MPH than Alcaraz is light years better than Alcaraz.

No one who stands in the doubles alley to hit a kick serve out wide like a 4.0 doubles player is a great server. Novak has become a great server

True. But it did work at clay for the kid. Nole serve is better than the kid.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

The second set should've gone to Medvedev. Might've changed the whole dynamic of the match.

If if if

 

[Lauren_Girl']

It wasn't a dead rubber match, it was only the second match for both.

He didn't pull out, he played 3 matches and then retired vs Stan after 2 sets.

He was struggling in all his USO matches, specially the 2nd round against Londero. That shoulder injury started in his 2nd round match in Cincinnati against Pouille.

For the WTF, Djokovic only needed to win 1 set in his last match against Zverev. He really didn't need to beat Medvedev to qualify for the SF. It was crystal clear that he tanked the match after the initial break, in order to save energy for the Semifinals.

I think it'd be wrong to state that Medvedev didn't benefit from the context in these 2 matches.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Didn't make quick errors on big points, mostly.

 

[TennisFan3]

We can overanalyze as much as we want. But tennis is a game of inches. It was all about the 2nd set in the last 2 slams - where 1 pt basically decided the match. 2nd sets in both Wimbledon and UsOpen were long and decisive and the loser had a set point in both.

Wimbledon Final: Djokovic loses the 2nd set. Loses in 5 sets. Had he converted the SP he had, he would have won in straights. Even Alcaraz acknowledged that.
UsOpen Final: Djokovic is clutch, saves a set pt, wins the 2nd set. Ultimately, wins in straight sets. Had Medvedev converted the (2nd set) set point, he had a shot of winning the match in 5 sets.

Novak was physically done in 2nd set of UsOpen Final. However, Med wasn't clutch enough to convert his opportunties. In the 3rd set, the fight had gone out of Med and Novak got a 2nd wind.

Basically Med zoned in vs Alcaraz in the SF. He is unlikely to repeat the performance. There is no doubt that Alcaraz-Djokovic would have been a better UsOpen Final.

 

[btsjungkook]

We can overanalyze as much as we want. But tennis is a game of inches. It was all about the 2nd set in the last 2 slams - where 1 pt basically decided the match.

Wimbledon Final: Djokovic loses the 2nd set. Loses in 5 sets. Had he converted the SP he had, he would have won in straights. Even Alcaraz acknowledged that.
UsOpen Final: Djokovic is clutch - wins the 2nd set. Wins in straight sets. Had Medvedev converted the 2nd set - set point, he had a shot of winning the match in 5 sets.

Novak was physically done in 2nd set of UsOpen Final. However, Med wasn't clutch enough to convert. In the 3rd set, the fight had gone out of Med and Novak got a 2nd wind.

Basically Med zoned in vs Alcaraz in the SF. He is unlikely to repeat the performance. There is no doubt that Alcaraz-Djokovic would have been a better UsOpen Final.

Who do you think would've won the final if Djokovic and Alcaraz met?

 

[Biotic]

Djokovic was better but the Serbian team was almost as notoriously talking to Novak as the Spanish team did to Carlos. You cannot have possibly missed this if you'd watched what was going on.

Yeah well, Medvedev's team may not have been as loud, but there were few nasty exchanges between Med and his coach in the 3rd set.

 

[Rattie]

I thought that Alcaraz was a bad match up for Medvevdev but then Med won. I also thought that Medvevdev was a bad match up for Novak but he won in straights. What did Djokovic do against Medvevdev that Alcaraz failed in that match? Would Alcaraz have beaten Djokovic if he went to the final? What do you guys think?

Alcaraz didn’t play well enough. Had he done, the result would have been as it was the last two occasions he played Daniil. Novak played well. Simple as.

 

[ND-13]

Alcaraz softened it up for Djokovic to eat the cake

 

[junior74]

I thought that Alcaraz was a bad match up for Medvevdev but then Med won. I also thought that Medvevdev was a bad match up for Novak but he won in straights. What did Djokovic do against Medvevdev that Alcaraz failed in that match? Would Alcaraz have beaten Djokovic if he went to the final? What do you guys think?

Why did you think Medvedev was a bad matchup for Novak when he loses 2 out of 3 matches, and the only big win was when Novak had a mental breakdown on court?

 

[FeroBango]

Yeah well, Medvedev's team may not have been as loud, but there were few nasty exchanges between Med and his coach in the 3rd set.

It's just the new norm, pleasant or not

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

We can overanalyze as much as we want. But tennis is a game of inches. It was all about the 2nd set in the last 2 slams - where 1 pt basically decided the match.

Wimbledon Final: Djokovic loses the 2nd set. Loses in 5 sets. Had he converted the SP he had, he would have won in straights. Even Alcaraz acknowledged that.
UsOpen Final: Djokovic is clutch - wins the 2nd set. Wins in straight sets. Had Medvedev converted the 2nd set - set point, he had a shot of winning the match in 5 sets.

Novak was physically done in 2nd set of UsOpen Final. However, Med wasn't clutch enough to convert. In the 3rd set, the fight had gone out of Med and Novak got a 2nd wind.

Basically Med zoned in vs Alcaraz in the SF. He is unlikely to repeat the performance. There is no doubt that Alcaraz-Djokovic would have been a better UsOpen Final.

Perfect summary. I agree 100%.

 

[TennisFan3]

Who do you think would've won the final if Djokovic and Alcaraz met?

Hard to predict. Alcaraz is really the only one who can beat Novak in a slam final even when Novak is playing at his best.
For the UsOpen, I'd give the slight edge to Novak as Alcaraz hasn't played at his Wimbledon level in the fall hardcourt season.
That said, if Alcaraz irons out a few chinks in his game (cut down on neutral ball UFEs and 2nd serve return UFEs), he would be very hard to beat even by Novak.