What Do You Do When Someone Was Definitely Bumped Down In Error?

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I've never seen anything like this in league tennis.

I just played a guy in 7.5 mixed combo (he is 3.5, his female partner is 4.0). He had a huge serve but inconsistent, messy footwork at times. But he had terrific volleys, great overhead, great transitions, good speed, could hang with my 4.0 male partner. Could S&V at times behind his serve. Tended to spin the second serve in. So, you know, 3.5.

Well, the computer dropped him down to 3.0 based on a 2019 record of 20-2. Most of his play was in mixed, but he played men's 3.5 18+ and 40+. And here is his record in 3.5:

Men's 18+ doubles (same partner): 3 Wins-0 Losses. 7-5, 6-2; 4-6, 6-2, 1-0; 6-4, 6-3
Men's 40+ doubles (different partners): 2 wins-1 loss. All three matches were extremely close in total games, decided by match tiebreak.
Men's 18+ Flight Playoffs, doubles (different partners): 1 win-1 loss. 6-2-6-4 loss, 6-2, 6-1 win.

So how does someone who goes 6-2 at 3.5 on the year drop down to 3.0? This guy is definitely competitive at 3.5. For guys, 3.0 is beginner level; who gets dropped to 3.0 men's without being 65 or losing a limb?

The idea of this guy playing 6.0 mixed and bouncing the ball off of the foreheads of 3.0 women is alarming. Somebody's gonna get hurt.

How did this happen?
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Did he play Adult last year? If not, was he a 3.5S this year?

Not that that would explain getting bumped down to 3.0 with the record you listed playing 3.5. Sometimes the USTA just gets it wrong ...
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
He was a 3.0 self-rate in 2018. Got bumped to 3.5 for 2019.

Good lord. My husband doesn't really play, but I would love for him to get into the game. He is a true beginner, so 3.0. He would probably walk off the court if he faced someone like this guy.
 

esgee48

Legend
If he was playing with a stronger partner, they maintain the differential. That means the stronger partner gets more of the hit than the weaker one for wins and losses. As a team, perhaps they should have blown everyone out with 2 breaks per set. If he is close, he could appeal back up.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
If he was playing with a stronger partner, they maintain the differential. That means the stronger partner gets more of the hit than the weaker one for wins and losses. As a team, perhaps they should have blown everyone out with 2 breaks per set. If he is close, he could appeal back up.
I think the USTA just got it wrong. My ratings had him staying a 3.5, and by @Cindysphinx's account and just the smell test of his record (6-2 in Adult, 3-1 in Tri-Level) it makes you go hmmm.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Every 6.0 mixed captain is going to be calling this guy .... pair him up with a strong 3.0F and beat the tar out of 3.5M/2.5F combos or slaughter weak 3.0M/3.0F combos.

I have seen plenty of times where the USTA magic computer gets it wrong in both directions. If he really likes winning he will play as a 3.0, if he likes competition he will hit that appeal button. (If he was a she the button for appeal up was already hit multiple times LOL)
 

leech

Semi-Pro
I was floored when I heard he got bumped down...makes no sense. He should be by far the best 3.0C in the Section. That was the most confounding bump down I've seen.
 
Isn’t there appeal process with USTA ratings?
Sure: on the USTA web page, log in [don't just view as a guest] and look in the "My Tennis" tab: there is a "Appeal Rating Level" link. Click it and you'll get an immediate answer [yea or nay]. I'm not sure what to do if you don't get the answer you want; talk to the LLC?
 

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
There you go again, using that logic thing.
lol But taking the question at face value there's not many reasons they'll accept as valid if your automatic appeal fails. I think once you get rejected there's a link underneath that leads to filing a manual appeal. But unless you have/had a debilitating medical problem or an opponent put in an incorrect score, you're basically out of luck.
 
lol But taking the question at face value there's not many reasons they'll accept as valid if your automatic appeal fails. I think once you get rejected there's a link underneath that leads to filing a manual appeal. But unless you have/had a debilitating medical problem or an opponent put in an incorrect score, you're basically out of luck.
I've heard anecdotally that appealing down is more likely to get rejected but that appealing up is very likely granted.
 

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
I've heard anecdotally that appealing down is more likely to get rejected but that appealing up is very likely granted.
Perhaps. My guess would be that's because of the type of people who appeal up vs down and not because the system makes one easier than the other. I do know a few people (including a strong 4.0M) who have tried hard to appeal up and got repeatedly declined. But who knows the truth
 

leech

Semi-Pro
Ah, but you're still using him for mixed. Right?
Would have loved to! Alas, he was picked up by a rival 7.0 MXD captain. It hadn't ever occurred to me that a guy that went 5-1 at 3.5 could get bumped down.

If it weren't for the consistency issues, he'd be pretty much unbeatable with a strong 4.0 partner.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
If he really likes winning he will play as a 3.0, if he likes competition he will hit that appeal button. (If he was a she the button for appeal up was already hit multiple times LOL)
Or he could just accept the new rating and still play 3.5. Sounds like everyone in the area knows the guy is a 3.5. Not sure why anyone would appeal up and get that scarlet letter by their name.
 

Doan

Rookie
Would have loved to! Alas, he was picked up by a rival 7.0 MXD captain. It hadn't ever occurred to me that a guy that went 5-1 at 3.5 could get bumped down.

If it weren't for the consistency issues, he'd be pretty much unbeatable with a strong 4.0 partner.
There's always 2020 TriLevel. Did he sign-up for 6.0 mixed ? I would think he would find 6.0 boring and be done in under an hour.
 

leech

Semi-Pro
There's always 2020 TriLevel. Did he sign-up for 6.0 mixed ? I would think he would find 6.0 boring and be done in under an hour.
Yes, he's on a 6.0 MXD team that has aspirations of winning Nationals. He played on a 6.0 MXD team that went to Nationals in 2018, but didn't fare well there. I think he's improved since 2018 (when he went 12-11 in regular season), despite what the USTA computer thinks!
 

Doan

Rookie
Or he could just accept the new rating and still play 3.5. Sounds like everyone in the area knows the guy is a 3.5. Not sure why anyone would appeal up and get that scarlet letter by their name.
Its not often but does happen. I know a 3.5S guy who got a 3.0C rating and appealed up 3.5A two years in a row. I think this year he's finally accepted his rating as I haven't seen him appeal up yet.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
My fave ever: Dude was a 4.0S .... got bumped down to a 3.5C ... CHANGED HIS NAME and went to a 4.0S ... got bumped down to a 3.0C and hasn't been seen since.

That said on the women's side ... you see a lot of As ... almost entirely appeals up.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
What do you reckon was his correct rating?
I played as his partner in 7.5 mixed ... he double-faulted 2 ENTIRE service games, his groundstrokes rarely found the court and he would not leave the baseline ... opponents (who I knew well) said after the match I would have fared better playing with a potted plant.
3.0C was about right.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
I think is was about 10 or 12 years ago, but we had a very prolific 5.0 in the PNW get bumped down to 4.5 by the computer. This player was in his mid-40s at the time, but was a former top 150 ATP player who had played in the main draw of several Grand Slams, won Challenger level tournaments in singles (with some wins over some big name players), and was still making the semis and finals of local Open tournaments on a regular basis. He was in great shape and had a dominating record on a 5.0 team that year, so it was unexplainable how the computer would bump him down. Anyway, that 4.5 rating lasted about 30 minutes because as soon as the USTA Section office started getting emails, they manually moved him back to 5.0... pronto!
 
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I played as his partner in 7.5 mixed ... he double-faulted 2 ENTIRE service games, his groundstrokes rarely found the court and he would not leave the baseline ... opponents (who I knew well) said after the match I would have fared better playing with a potted plant.
3.0C was about right.
What kind of potted plant?
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
I've never seen anything like this in league tennis.

I just played a guy in 7.5 mixed combo (he is 3.5, his female partner is 4.0). He had a huge serve but inconsistent, messy footwork at times. But he had terrific volleys, great overhead, great transitions, good speed, could hang with my 4.0 male partner. Could S&V at times behind his serve. Tended to spin the second serve in. So, you know, 3.5.

Well, the computer dropped him down to 3.0 based on a 2019 record of 20-2. Most of his play was in mixed, but he played men's 3.5 18+ and 40+. And here is his record in 3.5:

Men's 18+ doubles (same partner): 3 Wins-0 Losses. 7-5, 6-2; 4-6, 6-2, 1-0; 6-4, 6-3
Men's 40+ doubles (different partners): 2 wins-1 loss. All three matches were extremely close in total games, decided by match tiebreak.
Men's 18+ Flight Playoffs, doubles (different partners): 1 win-1 loss. 6-2-6-4 loss, 6-2, 6-1 win.

So how does someone who goes 6-2 at 3.5 on the year drop down to 3.0? This guy is definitely competitive at 3.5. For guys, 3.0 is beginner level; who gets dropped to 3.0 men's without being 65 or losing a limb?

The idea of this guy playing 6.0 mixed and bouncing the ball off of the foreheads of 3.0 women is alarming. Somebody's gonna get hurt.

How did this happen?
Easy, appeal and you will get back next day
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Would have loved to! Alas, he was picked up by a rival 7.0 MXD captain. It hadn't ever occurred to me that a guy that went 5-1 at 3.5 could get bumped down.

If it weren't for the consistency issues, he'd be pretty much unbeatable with a strong 4.0 partner.
**A-HA!** So you would have used him knowing he has no business playing as a 3.0? **A-HA!** :p

Seriously, the only time I had a player who was way out of level was a woman who came here from France. We weren't sure of her level, but she had played as a junior and had a loss to Bartoli and a win over another female pro of that era. USTA said 4.0 based on their assessment of the French rating system or whatever, so I signed her onto my 7.5 combo team.

She played one match for me, and her opponents were pretty much standing there with their hands on their hips as she blasted the ball. Hearing this, I set up a practice set of doubles, and it became abundantly clear she was going to kill somebody at 7.5 combo, where you sometimes get 3.0s playing up. I could do nothing with her ball because it seemed to be moving all over the place in the air. And when she got anything short and above the net, she drilled it up the middle. That's not 4.0-level stuff.

I handed her off to a 4.5 captain, where she dominated for a season or two until she was bumped up to 5.0.
 
**A-HA!** So you would have used him knowing he has no business playing as a 3.0? **A-HA!** :p

Seriously, the only time I had a player who was way out of level was a woman who came here from France. We weren't sure of her level, but she had played as a junior and had a loss to Bartoli and a win over another female pro of that era. USTA said 4.0 based on their assessment of the French rating system or whatever, so I signed her onto my 7.5 combo team.
If the French system is like the English system, lower #s mean better players. Maybe the USTA didn't know that? :D
 

brownbearfalling

Hall of Fame
Regardless of what he is computer rated the rating will portray his ability eventually if he keeps playing and doesn’t utilize and loopholes to sandbag his rating. Honestly if he is as skilled as you are portraying why would he want to play beginners and be beating them? Or maybe he just had a good day or doesn’t perform as well in men’s leagues. Either way if he continues to protect his low rating, I think that people who find fulfillment in sandbagging have other issues. As the saying goes, pick on someone your own size.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
There were two pretty egregious computer errors around here in the last 10 or so years, and both times, the guy did the same thing - continue to play primarily 4.5 but register for a 4.0 team that he knew would make the playoffs without him and just play the minimum regular season matches to be able to play in the 4.0 playoffs.

The first was a guy about 10 years ago who was 5-0 at 4.5 but got bumped down anyway. He played his season but then his team lost in the district playoffs anyway. He was bumped back up to 4.5 and has been 4.5 since. The other was a kid from Mexico. He played 4 years of NAIA tennis, and registered 5.0 and appealed to 4.5 to play tri-level. I played him in tri-level on the 4.5 court (before I was bumped back down). He was a pretty high level 4.5, although not completely out of level playing 4.5, either. He was 7-0 on the 4.5 court in tri-level (so clearly NOT sandbagging or anything), and bumped down to 4.0 C at the end of the year. He played his 2 minimum 4.0 matches, which he won easily, and was 10-3 in the regular season at 4.5. He played in the district playoffs at both 4.0 and 4.5 and won both matches easily at #1 singles at both levels. His 4.0 team qualified for sectionals, but he and their other ringer, who was a high school kid who is also nowhere even close to 4.0, did not play at sectionals and their team got blown out and finished dead last. He was double bumped 4.0->5.0 at the end of the season, and won both his 5.0 matches this past year, although they were very close matches.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
IMO if the Computer spits out a rating there's nothing wrong with a player playing at that level, unless they manipulated their scores to get that rating.
 

Traffic

Hall of Fame
Well, I played 3.0 and 3.5 men's last season. Won every 3.0 and 3.5 40+ matches. Won 3.0 18+ and most of my 3.5 18+. However, my partner typically had a higher dynamic rating that I did. So my guess is that my partner got the brownie points and my dynamic rating stayed low enough to stay a 3.0. (FWIW, my UTR is 4.8)

It came as a surprise to all my team mates, coaches and captains.

The only thing it impacts is that I can't participate in the 3.5+ rated in-club ladder flights. Nothing really changes for play in USTA.

I'm still on a 3.0 and 3.5 team. And I will play on the same 6.0 and 7.0 mxd teams. Actually, those captains are really salivating as they thought they'd have to find a mercenary 3.0M player for their 3 - 4.0 females. For my men's team, I'm recovering from an injury so it's probably just as well I didn't get bumped.

As far as the comment about a strong 3.5 hitting the forehead of a 3.0F,...that shouldn't be a concern. At that level, you should be able to control your shots and also understand your shots to know that you don't have to hit a shot at a underskilled net player. You should be able to hit their shoelaces not their heads. :p
 
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leech

Semi-Pro
**A-HA!** So you would have used him knowing he has no business playing as a 3.0? **A-HA!** :p
Of course! Finding these ratings anomalies is the holy grail of captaining! (And looking back, this guy had some postseason losses as a 3.0, including at TriLevel Sectionals with @Doan earlier this year for a team I captained)
 

Traffic

Hall of Fame
Of course! Finding these ratings anomalies is the holy grail of captaining! (And looking back, this guy had some postseason losses as a 3.0, including at TriLevel Sectionals with @Doan earlier this year for a team I captained)
I've come to the conclusion that the team with the highest number of under-rated players wins!
 

Doan

Rookie
Of course! Finding these ratings anomalies is the holy grail of captaining! (And looking back, this guy had some postseason losses as a 3.0, including at TriLevel Sectionals with @Doan earlier this year for a team I captained)
LOL - Thanks for reminding me. I didn't play well that weekend as can be seen by my 1-3 record. So you can blame me for deflating his dNRTP, seeing as the guys we lost to are currently 3.0/3.5
 

J B

Semi-Pro
Well given they are putting D1-D3 guys at 4.5-4.0 are you surprised? They have a stinking rating system that specificies strokes etc, they dont use. Then they say have garbage strokes but beat a 4.0 and you are a 4.0. Then they bump a 5-1 3.5 down to 3.0.....
 
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