What does it say about Carlos finishing the year outside the ATP top 2?

Will Carlos finish top 2 this year?

  • Total voters
    22
The Guru said:
Fair enough you could argue Zverev this year over Sinner last year that's the only one that's close though all the other seasons are clearly better. Even Sinner is easy to make the case for he had more titles he won the Davis cup in impressive fashion. His master's resume is better. In the fall he displayed a higher level beating tons of top competition than any run of form Zverev has had this year. And then of course he had a very strong WTF as well. Zverev was better at the slams but their AO losses are very similar. They both have two garbage losses though Zverev's are slightly less garbage. And then Sinner lost to Novak at W in an extremely competitive straight setter that actually had a closer DR than Alcaraz-Zverev FO. Though I will admit Zverev has the better performance there. You can easily make the case Sinner's season last year was better than Zverev's this year.
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The year is not even finished and even by end of this week zverev would probably have better year than sinner objectively.

Sinners draw in Canada 2023 wasn't lit for one. His only slams semis was on the back of 5 almost 100 ranked players.

What you are talking is just momentum. That means nothing. He didn't do it last year. Even in fall, when he caught fire, Djokovic thrashed him in ATP finals. So even if zverev wins Paris, he is much ahead as he should be. Sinner was just 4 in the world. Let's not rewrite history AT ALL. It was Djokovic raz meddy as top 3. We can't use 2024 stats for writing rosey pictures.
 
Zverev has 2 slams where he reached semis. Sinner doesn't even have 2 semis. And lost badly in cincy, kept withdrawing from masters time to time. It was not really all good.
 
And then he was heavy favorite vs Djoker at the Olympics and lost that one straight sets. He’s not rookie anymore. He shouldn’t be losing these matches that he’s lost this year. Average year for what should be expected from him at this point. This should have been the year real dominance began. You could argue he was better last year
 
NatF said:
I think it's natural for there to be a bit of regression once you hit your late'ish 20's, but you may disagree with me there. I think after a while the tour starts to understand what patterns of play work against you and what your weaknesses are - along with a bit of a decline in physicality. These guys will need to find dimensions to add to their games otherwise they're going to be on a slow downward trend (or not so slow as far as Tsits is concerned). I think Med's woes are mostly linked to his serve which has lost potency, I can't really comment on his ground game declining and I was never that impressed with anyway :-D
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Right but it's not like other top guys are coming and exposing these weaknesses unless we're talking about like De Minaur and Fritz lol. It seems like everyone is just playing worse. I mean I guess looking at 11-20 seems pretty strong but still like these top guys have just been so unimpressive to me this year. Even when they're winning it's usually by the skin of their teeth.

I actually think Meddy peaked off the ground last year and this year hasn't been much worse but man the serve is just not nearly as damaging as his early prime. I don't see any reason why he can't get it back or why it even declined in the first place. I don't think Med's window is necessarily closed because he's a Sinner upset and some small improvements away from plenty of cracks at big titles on HCs.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
The year is not even finished and even by end of this week zverev would probably have better year than sinner objectively.

Sinners draw in Canada 2023 wasn't lit for one. His only slams semis was on the back of 5 almost 100 ranked players.

What you are talking is just momentum. That means nothing. He didn't do it last year. Even in fall, when he caught fire, Djokovic thrashed him in ATP finals. So even if zverev wins Paris, he is much ahead as he should be. Sinner was just 4 in the world. Let's not rewrite history AT ALL. It was Djokovic raz meddy as top 3. We can't use 2024 stats for writing rosey pictures.
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If Zverev gets this done and he should I concede he'll have a better season than Sinner did last year. But it's close and Sinner is the worst of all those seasons I listed by a fair amount. He'd still be well behind the rest.
 
The Guru said:
If Zverev gets this done and he should I concede he'll have a better season than Sinner did last year. But it's close and Sinner is the worst of all those seasons I listed by a fair amount. He'd still be well behind the rest.
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I don't even about the rest. Tsitsipas in 21 isn't that close either. He won no masters apart from monte carlo.

You just have to check the ranking pts at each time. Who was where.

2019 meddy is exception because big 3 were all top 3. That means something. Now 2021 onwards , this is what we can compare , yes.
 
NatF said:
Been a weird year, that Zverev is number two or likely to be just shows how spotty Alcaraz has been. Zverev hasn't impressed at all this year, prime example of how efficacy isn't the same as playing well.
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A bit like 1989, where any ranking system would have had Lendl above Becker (just as it was in reality), yet Becker had the better year really and everyone would have preferred Becker's 1989 to Lendl's 1989, even Lendl himself.
 
The Guru said:
Right but it's not like other top guys are coming and exposing these weaknesses unless we're talking about like De Minaur and Fritz lol. It seems like everyone is just playing worse. I mean I guess looking at 11-20 seems pretty strong but still like these top guys have just been so unimpressive to me this year. Even when they're winning it's usually by the skin of their teeth.

I actually think Meddy peaked off the ground last year and this year hasn't been much worse but man the serve is just not nearly as damaging as his early prime. I don't see any reason why he can't get it back or why it even declined in the first place. I don't think Med's window is necessarily closed because he's a Sinner upset and some small improvements away from plenty of cracks at big titles on HCs.
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I've not watched every match, but I assume by now most players know that to win they serve to Stef's backhand :laughing:

You think? What was better about his ground game last year? He had that hernia (?) didn't he, that impacted his serve. I'm not clued up on sports medicine so I don't know what the long term impact of that generally is.

Unfortunately you're right the field is so thin that he's an upset or two away from winners more majors or masters.
 
I’d rather be ranked number 20 with a channel slam than ranked 2 with nothing.

I doubt Carlos would trade his 2 majors this year with Zverev’s ranking lol.
 
The number one thing it tells us is what a sham the rankings computer can be.

People read so much into rankings stats and completely forget that the rankings computer is just an approximation.
 
Donkus_Reborn said:
the GOAT conversation literally revolves around it.

Zverev being ahead of Alcaraz in 2024 is the equivalent of Roddick being ahead of Federer after US Open 04
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There’s not a single player on the ATP that would a trade channel slam with a number 2 ranking.

I doubt Rafa would have traded his 2 majors with Alcaraz number 1 ranking in 2022. :rolleyes:
 
zakopinjo said:
Novak's losses in the 2008 season
Nadal 4x, Federer 2x, Murray 2x, Tsonga 2x, Simon, Roddick, Anderson, Karlovic, Safin

Alcaraz defeats in 2024
Djokovic, Zverev, Monfils, Humbert, VDP, Rublev, Monteiro, Dimitrov, Draper, Machac, Jarry


Novak's losses are to very strong names while most of Alcaraz's losses are to pathetic players
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So? Carlos has the channel slam :cool:
 
Rankings matter as much as slams

Only rafans who are now raz fans will say otherwise because they know they don't have it.

Rafans loved rankings in 2013/14 when rafa was winning week in and week out remember all
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
Has anyone ever won 2 slams and finished #3? Very odd.
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No more "odd" than 2016 Nole winning 2 slams/4 Masters and finishing #2.

The rankings are mostly about defending points. The points Carlos lost in BO3 were nearly double the points he earned earned in BO5. Meanwhile, Zverev didn't lose any points this year. He either defended points won in 2023 or (and mostly) performed much better at the tournament and earned points.
 
Incognito said:
There’s not a single player on the ATP that would a trade channel slam with a number 2 ranking.

I doubt Rafa would have traded his 2 majors with Alcaraz number 1 ranking in 2022. :rolleyes:
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I would trade two slams for the number 2 ranking to keep this forum buzzing thankyou very much.
 
Donkus_Reborn said:
I would trade two slams for the number 2 ranking to keep this forum buzzing thankyou very much.
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Of course everyone would prefer the Channel Slam over finishing #2. Ranking does not matter all that much.

OTOH, Raz was healthy and played all year. Raz is in his prime. It is not a good look for the young prime Raz to possibly be finishing #3 behind Zed.

Finishing #2 behind fellow possible future GOAT Sinner is no disgrace. Not at all. But finishing #3 behind Zed is a reflection of his inconsistency. It may very well damage his legacy.
:unsure:
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
Of course everyone would prefer the Channel Slam over finishing #2. Ranking does not matter all that much.

OTOH, Raz was healthy and played all year. Raz is in his prime. It is not a good look for the young prime Raz to possibly be finishing #3 behind Zed.

Finishing #2 behind fellow possible future GOAT Sinner is no disgrace. Not at all. But finishing #3 behind Zed is a reflection of his inconsistency. It may very well damage his legacy.
:unsure:
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nope, i would rather be ranked number 2 and win 0 slams than be ranked 3rd with 4 slams. Ranking is the most important thing in tennis. We can say that Zverev is currently playing at a level only one has surpassed.
 
Subway Tennis said:
The number one thing it tells us is what a sham the rankings computer can be.

People read so much into rankings stats and completely forget that the rankings computer is just an approximation.
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Yeah. I'd want to be world number 1 at some point, and would ideally want to stay there as long as possible, but weeks at number 1 is far lesser in importance compared to winning tournaments and beating your biggest rivals in direct matchups.
 
Donkus_Reborn said:
Ok, how about this? Slams are everything and without a slam you do not make it into the tennis HoF and no one would look at you as a very good player without one. In a top 50 players of all time list, all of them have a slam. Slam's are a barometer of success and anyone who says they are an underrated metric is a megadonk.


Slams are everything in tennis. When was the last player who said 'it was my dream as a kid of winning the madrid masters'.
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I get your point, but it's just a bit narrow.

I have heard players say that want to win M1000s. Even 250s, depending on if it's a hometown event or something. Reaching a certain ranking is also a big deal for a lot of players. Heck, even Federer was happy to dominate Basel, Nole wants to keep Belgrade alive, and Rafa loved Barcelona almost as much as Rome.

Prior to the big 3, fans also took more of an interest in other players. People would watch a Santoro or a Rios because they enjoyed watching them, not because they were major winners.
 
Aabye5 said:
I have heard players say that want to win M1000s. Even 250s, depending on if it's a hometown event or something. Reaching a certain ranking is also a big deal for a lot of players.

Prior to the big 3, fans also took more of an interest in other players. People would watch a Santoro or a Rios because they enjoyed watching them, not because they were major winners.
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wanting to win and dreaming to win are not the same

please let's not put ms1000 titles in the same category as slams, instead, let's live in reality.

Slams are slams for a reason. They are everything. MS1000 titles are only indicative of a career if you have loads, and most players who have loads of slams have loads of masters.
 
Donkus_Reborn said:
wanting to win and dreaming to win are not the same

please let's not put ms1000 titles in the same category as slams, instead, let's live in reality.

Slams are slams for a reason. They are everything. MS1000 titles are only indicative of a career if you have loads, and most players who have loads of slams have loads of masters.
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Majors are the pinnacle of the sport. But it's a myth that no one cares about M1000s. And no, most players don't boast a huge number of Masters, even Slam winners.
 
TheGoldenEra1990’s said:
And then he was heavy favorite vs Djoker at the Olympics and lost that one straight sets. He’s not rookie anymore. He shouldn’t be losing these matches that he’s lost this year.
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No, he is not a rookie, yet some insist on trying to address him as though he is some "kid" and not the adult he is. That said, Djokovic beat Alcaraz in convincing fashion, because he's getting used to playing Alcaraz. It takes time to understand someone who has defeated you, but once Djokovic fully analyzes Alcaraz's game, you might see more Olympic replays on other courts.
 
NatF said:
I've not watched every match, but I assume by now most players know that to win they serve to Stef's backhand :laughing:

You think? What was better about his ground game last year? He had that hernia (?) didn't he, that impacted his serve. I'm not clued up on sports medicine so I don't know what the long term impact of that generally is.

Unfortunately you're right the field is so thin that he's an upset or two away from winners more majors or masters.
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Nothing super dramatic or anything but I think he got better at generating offense off the forehand and has continued to hone his already great understanding of his own game and how he can best construct points. I also thought his footwork got better inside the court and his ability to change depth behind the baseline was better than it was in his earlier prime. Again small differences and not enough to compensate for the declined serve but I think the differences are there to see if you pay close enough attention.
 
The Guru said:
Medvedev was worse than last year his serve seems in perpetual slow decline though his baselining still feels as good as ever which is weird considering usually the opposite happens as you age.
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idk i think even his baselining has gotten worse. even less finishing power than he's had before on his forehand (which is saying something) and less consistency on his backhand (which is huge for his play style and a big part of why the Sinner matchup has suddenly become so polarized imo, and not just the serve-return changes)
 
I fail to see why there is so much friendly attention and gung-ho spirit for Ashtray Alcaraz.
There are a lot of more personally interesting players out there, even if their rankings are lower.
------ So Be It ⚜ ------
 
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