What does "Plow Through" actually mean...

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by AmeliasDad, Apr 23, 2008.

  1. tom_asdelonge182

    tom_asdelonge182 Semi-Pro

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    would plow through be the feeling that you get when you feel the weight from the racquet do the job for you?
     
    #51
  2. fuzz nation

    fuzz nation Legend

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    In my opinion, abso-tively. A lighter frame feels good when I catch the ball right on the sweetspot, but a heavier frame feels like it won't get pushed around by the ball. For heavy doubles where we're really rippin' on each other, that plow through does a lot of work for me, but it also feels easier to fight off a tougher ball or half-volley with much more confidence. Sure, a lot of the issue is subjective, but when I can just get the racquet in the way of the ball to send it back, that can give me a whole lot of confidence. Very subjective indeed...
     
    #52
  3. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Dont use physics for an excuse for why you dont know what you are talking about.

    The faster the mini-Cooper goes, the more potential for damage on the Hummer. It may get scrunched just the same either way, but if a mini-Cooper hits a car at 200 mph, even a Hummer is going to get damaged.

    If the Hummer is rolling at 2 mph and just bumps into the mini-Cooper, the mini-Cooper may be unharmed as well.

    The simple formula for force is (Mass * Acceleration)

    And in tennis we are not talking about the difference between a Hummer and a Mini-Cooper, we are talking about objects that are in some cases have a less then 10% difference in mass.

    So it's more than reasonable that if you can get a lighter racquet around faster, you can put just as much force on it as you could a heavier racquet that you had a tougher time getting around. (due to poor technique, etc.....)
     
    #53
  4. movdqa

    movdqa G.O.A.T.

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    I hit with my son yesterday (he hasn't hit in a long time) and I gave him one of my K90s. He had a lot of trouble getting used to it. He prefers the old Dunlops which weigh 17 ounces and are fairly headlight. He likes the complete lack of vibration on off-center shots with the heavier racquet. He also complained about the K90's stiffness and thought that it was strung tightly even though the Dunlops are strung at 62 and the K90s at 47/48.

    Definitely plow-through on the Dunlops.
     
    #54
  5. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    The Hummer doesn't even have to be moving. What happens to a Mini Cooper travelling at 100mph when it slams into a solid cinder block wall?

    If a lighter racquet can put just as much power on the ball as a heavier racquet just by swinging faster (all else being equal) then why are almost all lighter racquets stiffer and thus inherently more powerful? Oh yeah, it's because swinging faster cannot make up for the lack of mass, thus, they also have to make the racquet much stiffer to compensate for the lack of mass in producing power. Otherwise, a 9 oz. racquet with a stiffness of 50 will have very little power no matter how fast you can physically swing it. Your arm just can't swing that much faster or else the pros wouldn't add lead tape to their racquets to increase their swingweight while knowing how important racquet head speed is. You also lose control when you swing too fast, thus, a heavier racquet gives you controllable power.

    BTW, you obviously don't know physics because we're not talking about F=ma here, we're talking about p=mv. Yes, I do have a degree in mechanical engineering from an Ivy League university.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2008
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  6. anirut

    anirut Legend

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    The mini cooper and the hummer scenarios are all off.

    The cars are of different CONSTRUCTION.

    IF we were to design both of the cars using the same material, but different in weight, the scenario would be more valid.

    And, BTW, I agree with Jarvier. That's a much more valid scenario.

    Edit: Why not visit www.wreckedexotics.com for some bike-through-a-car pictures? That's plow-through by an object that's only about 15% the weight of a car, but hitting it at "warp speed".
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2008
    #56
  7. movdqa

    movdqa G.O.A.T.

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    My bicycle weighs about 21 pounds and it's from the 1980s so maybe bicycles are lighter today. I'd assume at least 3K pounds for a car. Not sure how you came up with 15%.
     
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  8. anirut

    anirut Legend

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    ^^
    I mean motorbike ....
     
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  9. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    I lol'd
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  10. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    You are assuming that lighter racket means faster swings - it doesn't - lighter racket will mean faster reaction, but the max speed at the point of impact can be greater with heavier or differently balanced stick. For example the (flat) serve velocity is almost entirely dependent on racket head velocity at the point of impact, yet very fast serves can be had from very heavy frames. Research on details is still ongoing.

    P.S. Not even in ivy league does engineering degree make you a tennis gear dynamics specialist...though I'm surprised it's not helping you come up with better arguments either.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2008
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  11. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    #61
  12. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Other people are talking about lighter racquets giving faster swings. I'm saying that even a lighter racquet will not allow you to swing the racquet fast enough to compensate for the lack of mass.

    BTW, if you know more about this, then please explain to us why most lighter racquets also tend to be stiffer? Could it be to compensate for the lack of mass? According to some people here, all you need to do is to swing the lighter racquet faster to compensate for the lack of mass. If that were the case, there would be no need to make lighter racquets also stiffer, with wider beams, and thus, more powerful.

    And, no, research on basic fundamental physics (mechanics) is not ongoing. Issac Newton already figured it all out over 300 years ago. Heavy racquets can give you faster serves because the greater mass transfers more mometum to the ball, provided you can maintain your racquet head speed. The greater mass can also offset a slightly lower swing speed and still produce bigger serves. I can serve huge with heavy racquets like the PS 6.0 85 and the PS Tour 90. It's much harder for me to pound flat serves with lighter racquets even though I can swing them faster.
     
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  13. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Ummm, ya. p=mv doesnt exactly help your argument either. (did they teach you what the v stands for in your Ivy League college??)

    Now you are throwing brick walls into it. The material and it's ability to withstand force is a major factor here that does not apply to your argument.

    Otherwise I might as well mention how if you throw a penny off of a tall building it could go right thru someone's skull.

    Nobody is debating that if you swing two racquets at the same speed, the heavier one will hit the ball somewhat further.

    But the common sense observation is that not eveyone can swing the heavier racquet at the same speed, and anyone who's went out and gotten the k90 but doesnt have good form experiences what NBM mentioned, the ball isnt going to go anywhere.

    So the point is that you go find the racquet with the most mass that you can handle.

    Otherwise what the heck is your point? That we should all go out and buy k90's because they are the heaviest and produce the most power?

    And since speed doesnt matter at all, perhaps I dont even have to swing my k90. I can just sort of block everything and hit incredible shots, more so then my 10oz racquet. (in reality they will both produce the same result, they wont do anything if you dont move them)
     
    #63
  14. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Huh? I'm guessing you have no idea what "v" means. :(

    This is a thread about plow through. I have no idea why you are talking about "force", "acceleration", and how "far" you can hit the ball. :confused:

    A heavier racquet will plow through the ball better than a lighter racquet will, all else being equal. End of story.

    You still haven't answered why lighter racquets tend to be stiffer, have wider beams, and are more inherently powerful than most heavier racquets if all one needs to do is to swing the lighter racquet faster to generate the same power as the heavier racquet.

    There is no substitute for weight. That's why they classify boxers by weight classes and not by how fast they can swing their arms. A heavyweight boxer swinging slower will pack more plow through in his punch than a featherweight boxer swinging his arm faster.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2008
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  15. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Yea but your argument for that being the case hinged on lighter=faster assumption

    Even without considering an answer, a question of "Could it be to compensate for the lack of speed?" would be no less likely, so you can see how it is not helpful to you right?




    Ahh but not everyone can swing that lighter racket faster ;)

    If you give a junior player a 12+ oz stick their ball velocity will probably drop, but many stronger players, with less wrist dependandant technique will find more power there.


    ROFL, here we go again - Didn't I just point out to you that the relationship between the racket weight and swing speed that can be generated is an illusive one and cannot be assumed??

    You cannot rule out that the reason you cannot serve harder with lighter racket is because you are swinging them SLOWER.
     
    #65
  16. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Which one would you say will plow through the ball better - 11oz 10 points head heavy racket or a 12 oz 10 points headlight racket?
     
    #66
  17. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Well, those two racquets aren't exactly equal other than weight are they?
     
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  18. Agent Orynge

    Agent Orynge Professional

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    Agreed. You really can't argue with physics, people.

    The skill of the player swinging the racquet is immaterial to this debate. You can't say, for example, that a heavier racquet is less powerful because a certain player uses his wrist more. The laws of physics don't change in my hand, nor do they in yours. The player's inability to land the ball within the bounds of the court has everything to do with his lack of skill, and if he dumps the ball into the net because of poorly timed wrist movement then you're no longer making a valid comparison.
     
    #68
  19. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    ahh yes right you are.
     
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  20. kimbahpnam

    kimbahpnam Hall of Fame

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    #70
  21. BigT

    BigT Professional

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    to the OP, I think previous posts miss the main point. True, plow through is a good, solid feeling of hitting the ball. But I think the result is what matters most with plow through: which is the ball plowing through the court. Off the same swing, on a racket with good plow through, the ball will land in the court and hit the fence before the second bounce, where on a racket with less plow through, the ball will bounce at least two or more times before hitting the fence. Agreed?
     
    #71
  22. red7flag

    red7flag Rookie

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    Plow Through is especially effective when hitting a very hard hit ball, sometimes called a heavy ball. You are able to hit it back with out a lot of vibrations. The negative is that to do that requires a bit of weight, which can make the axe less manoeverable, especially at net when you need fast reactions. There is a trade off and it really depends on an individuals style. I tend to like a mixture of plow and moneuverabllity, but I tend to be an all courter.
    Tony
     
    #72
  23. Agent Orynge

    Agent Orynge Professional

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    Searching through some of my old posts, and came across this gem of a thread. A good read for anyone interested.
     
    #73
  24. goosala

    goosala Hall of Fame

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    Plow through is when your woman says "Harder!" and you thrust with all yor might. Actually it means how well you hit through the ball with your racquet. All else being equall the heavier weight usually means the easier you will hit through the ball.
     
    #74
  25. happycamperjack

    happycamperjack Rookie

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    Plow through is directly correlated with the control with your shots when receiving a heavy ball from your opponent. A better plow racket for example will allow you to return a fast serve or heavy top spin shots with good amount of control. To do that, the racket needs to be heavy and have consistant flex and other characteristics to ensure consistant returns
     
    #75
  26. Donny0627

    Donny0627 Professional

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    i think of it as mostly swingweight.


    i.e.: once you send the racket in motion the weight pulls it through the ball...


    just my 2c...
     
    #76
  27. tt2003

    tt2003 New User

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    who has plow through forehand?

    Steffi Graff, Sampras, Roger has plow through forehand.

    who does not have plow through forehand?

    Michael Chang does not have plow through forehand

    Am I right?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
    #77

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