What does Sinner incur if he faces the 2y ban?

Golden-24

New User
I have been reading so many contradictory informations on social medias. Articles contradicting each other, giving unreliable or incomplete informations. His detractors stupidly think he doped on purpose and want him gone at all costs, but they aren't aware of what truly happened or what he incurs. His fans are blindly defending him and seem so sure he did nothing wrong and nothing bad will happen to him. The other people either don't care or they rely on biased/bogus articles. What does he truly risk if WADA wins the case and punishes him?

Will Medvedev be the Australian Open winner? The score of this final looks more strange than ever now. He was clearly the better player in the first 2 sets and a half. The only issue in the end was fitness, Sinner looked more fresh and wore him out in the 5th set. Imagine the season Medvedev would have had if he'd won the Australian Open. It destroyed him mentally. If (and it's a big IF) Sinner loses his case and gets the ban, I'd be enraged if I were Medvedev. Is this even a possibility? I know his positive tests were in March so I'd say NO, but I have read many people claiming yes and wanting Medvedev to get this trophy. I'm confused. What about De Minaur in Rotterdam, Dimitrov in Miami and Hurkacz in Halle? Would they automatically be the winner of these tournaments? I don't count Tiafoe and Fritz, since he was cleared during the Cincinnati open. De Minaur shouldn't either, as Rotterdam was in February. But there is a big mystery around Dimitrov and Hurkacz. They should be the real winners of Miami and Halle, IF Sinner is declared guilty.
What about the weeks spent at number #1 since the positive tests? I just checked at Djokovic's ranking. He only lost the spot during the week of June 3. He slipped from #2 to #4 during the week of September 9. There were 14 weeks between Roland-Garros and the US Open. This means Djokovic would have been the world number #1 if Sinner had been banned and/or deprived from his points won in March/April/May/June/July/August. For now Sinner only lost his Indian-Wells points. But logically he should also lose every points he won between his positive tests and Cincinnati when he "won" his first case. If I were Djokovic, I would feel robbed if I know the only obstacle keeping me from the number #1 spot should have been banned. I would definitely complain and try to get those 14 weeks back. 14 weeks is a HUGE loss, even for a guy like Djokovic. There are so many examples of players (ATP or WTA) who tested positive and weren't allowed to play until the case was officially over, even if they're declared innocent in the end. Halep, Jarry and that other Italian player (I forgot his name) come to my mind, but there were many others. They had similar excuses as Sinner to justify their positive tests... and yet they were still banned for several months until the trial.
And then for the ban itself, what does he incur? Could he really face a two-year ban or it's just an unfounded rumor? When would it begin? Could he be banned for most of the 2025 season and if it happens, does Zverev (or whoever is number #2 at this moment) automatically become the number #1?

It's all so confusing right now. I know it's a lot of questions, but does anyone have truthful informations with sources? It's just so hard to find anything reliable on social medias. Thank you.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
If Sinner receives a back-dated suspension of whatever length, then he loses both points and prize money.

This means he still won tournaments but gained nothing from them.

Sinner opted to keep playing while his case was heard in camera. Everyone has that right, but few choose it.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Sinner will receive a ban from CAS, but the ban will last months and not years,

It certainly won't affect his year beginning from March 2025.
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
I have been reading so many contradictory informations on social medias. Articles contradicting each other, giving unreliable or incomplete informations.
Why would you rely on social media to explain anything complex? Tendentious half-ignorance is typically the best you can expect.

Will Medvedev be the Australian Open winner?

No, no, no. Where are you getting that idea? No competitive results were challenged in the original Sinner decision by the Independent Tribunal. No competitive results are being challenged in the appeal to the CAS brought by WADA. There was and will be simply no impact on the outcomes of any tournaments.

The issue in WADA's appeal is whether Sinner should be punished -- by a suspension -- for allowing himself to be exposed to a banned substance by ineffectively supervising/controlling his staff, whose actions led to the accidental exposure that was found to have occurred. The Independent Tribunal found that Sinner had no negligence or fault; WADA disagrees. WADA wants a ban. That's what the case is now about. It's not about being a "doper" (Sinner is not), it's not about "cleaning up" tennis (there was no performance-related impact on any matches), and it's certainly not about deciding whether 2024 on-court outcomes should be nullified. The issue is: Does Sinner get suspended because of what happened, or not?
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Career is done. Over. You do not recover from a 2 year absence. At least not 2 years and come back to dominating. Maybe has some runs and maybe one more slam, but will become the greatest hypothetical after a Young Fed.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Unintentional doping is still considered doping and no actual performance increment needs to be shown.

Most doping cases are not intentional, just ask Cilic or Sharapova.

Why would you rely on social media to explain anything complex? Tendentious half-ignorance is typically the best you can expect.



No, no, no. Where are you getting that idea? No competitive results were challenged in the original Sinner decision by the Independent Tribunal. No competitive results are being challenged in the appeal to the CAS brought by WADA. There was and will be simply no impact on the outcomes of any tournaments.

The issue in WADA's appeal is whether Sinner should be punished -- by a suspension -- for allowing himself to be exposed to a banned substance by ineffectively supervising/controlling his staff, whose actions led to the accidental exposure that was found to have occurred. The Independent Tribunal found that Sinner had no negligence or fault; WADA disagrees. WADA wants a ban. That's what the case is now about. It's not about being a "doper" (Sinner is not), it's not about "cleaning up" tennis (there was no performance-related impact on any matches), and it's certainly not about deciding whether 2024 on-court outcomes should be nullified. The issue is: Does Sinner get suspended because of what happened, or not?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Sinner will get a suspension backdated to the day of the original decision and with any luck that may see him still playing in March 2025.

Career is done. Over. You do not recover from a 2 year absence. At least not 2 years and come back to dominating. Maybe has some runs and maybe one more slam, but will become the greatest hypothetical after a Young Fed.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Sinner will get a suspension backdated to the day of the original decision and with any luck that may see him still playing in March 2025.
Missing AO would be big, but not a career killer by any means. If he is back by March then all will be fine. But the backdating will be weird. They take his slams and wins and points? Does anyone receive those weeks at number one or YE1? That is a no go for me.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The decision is due in February so he won't miss the AO. He might not get any prize money or points and the reality is that it would be a six-month ban at most if he begins anew in March.

Missing AO would be big, but not a career killer by any means. If he is back by March then all will be fine. But the backdating will be weird. They take his slams and wins and points? Does anyone receive those weeks at number one or YE1? That is a no go for me.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The previous verdict came down on August 20, but a suspension is probably retroactive (unlike what I previously suggested) to the time he tested positive on March 10.

That's the date he committed the "deed", so if he got a year that means he would have still played for a year but obtained no points or prize money.

An odd situation!
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Why would you rely on social media to explain anything complex? Tendentious half-ignorance is typically the best you can expect.

No, no, no. Where are you getting that idea? No competitive results were challenged in the original Sinner decision by the Independent Tribunal. No competitive results are being challenged in the appeal to the CAS brought by WADA. There was and will be simply no impact on the outcomes of any tournaments.

Reading the relevant stuff helps, well said.

The issue in WADA's appeal is whether Sinner should be punished -- by a suspension -- for allowing himself to be exposed to a banned substance by ineffectively supervising/controlling his staff, whose actions led to the accidental exposure that was found to have occurred. The Independent Tribunal found that Sinner had no negligence or fault; WADA disagrees. WADA wants a ban. That's what the case is now about. It's not about being a "doper" (Sinner is not), it's not about "cleaning up" tennis (there was no performance-related impact on any matches), and it's certainly not about deciding whether 2024 on-court outcomes should be nullified. The issue is: Does Sinner get suspended because of what happened, or not?

Indeed that is the question. If CAS suspends Sinner and the test machines continue to catch ever smaller traces and more of them contamination will be an absolute nightmare for all professional athletes. The negligence bar would be so lowered that you have a dagger pointed at your the back anytime.
 

FreeJannik

New User
Indeed that is the question. If CAS suspends Sinner and the test machines continue to catch ever smaller traces and more of them contamination will be an absolute nightmare for all professional athletes. The negligence bar would be so lowered that you have a dagger pointed at your the back anytime.
Agree... during USO celebrations Sinner went from the court to his team position... while moving he shook hands with some random spectators... What if one of those guys had some banned substance on his hands? a career ending ban i think... since he don't even know who contaminated him...
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
If Sinner could show he was doped by a random third party then he would be completely exonerated, just as Gasquet was.

There would be no fault or negligence, but if it's your team that is responsible that is a different story.

Agree... during USO celebrations Sinner went from the court to his team position... while moving he shook hands with some random spectators... What if one of those guys had some banned substance on his hands? a career ending ban i think... since he don't even know who contaminated him...
 

RSJfan

Professional
Sinner will not receive any major ban. CAS is not stupid.
You seem to be suggesting that CAS must protect its institutional reputation and that to do so it will favor not banning the #1 player? I guess because it arguably would harm tennis and it’s not in the interest of CAS to do so? Or that CAS will harm its reputation by substituting it’s judgment in place of the independent panel that decided the case between the tennis anti-doping authority (ITIA) and Sinner?

I think this misunderstands what exactly CAS is and what it does. CAS is not a court that consists of set judges that may be cognizant of protecting its institutional reputation. The Sinner-WADA arbitration is a private arbitration; you can’t show up if you are not a party involved and watch the proceedings. CAS helps run arbitrations and formulates the procedural rules. The members of the arbitration panel (usually three) are chosen by Sinner and WADA from a pool of 400 (last I checked) kept on retainer by CAS (mostly lawyers with sports law and/or arbitration experience). They obviously must have no conflict of interest to get on a case. And while there was a study showing that some national anti-doping agencies tend to choose the same CAS arbitrators (suggesting “arbitrator shopping”) apart from that there isn’t evidence any particular panel has any interest in a particular result or thinks about protecting CAS reputation.

FYI, the tennis anti-doping agency uses an entity called Sports Resolutions to form it’s independent panels to resolve tennis doping disputes. These panels often include members with subject matter expertise. But in the WADA appeal the parties are not disputing the science or the facts. As far as I’ve read, they are only disputing whether Sinner bears “No Fault or Negligence” (no suspension) as the tennis independent panel held or some level of fault (possible suspension) as WADA argues. You don‘t need any subject matter expertise to decide. Degree of fault is traditionally the domain of lay jurors. So make up your own mind. After you hear all the facts. And only if you have no conflict of interest, which rules out all of TTW. ;)
 
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Pheasant

Legend
Sinner will be thrown in jail for 2 years and fined 100 million dollars. All of his assets will be seized, which will cause him to file for bankruptcy. Poor Jannik will be panhandling on the streets after he gets out of jail. After Sinner reaches rock-bottom, he will take the best steroids in order to get bigger than peak Lesnar ever got. He will be a ripped 310 lbs with 5% body fat. He will bench press 700 lbs. From there, he’ll join the WWE and become the biggest star in that sport’s history. He’ll have some crazy name like Carrotman, the Crusher.

All will end well for Carrotman the Crusher.
 

FreeJannik

New User
If Sinner could show he was doped by a random third party then he would be completely exonerated, just as Gasquet was.

There would be no fault or negligence, but if it's your team that is responsible that is a different story.
I understand... but in this hypotethical scenario it may be borderline impossible to prove (how many hands an athlete shook in a day/week?) and, moreover, no one will believe his defense anyway (like nobody believe him today), so reputation (and sponsors) are gone forever.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
There would be no fault or negligence, but if it's your team that is responsible that is a different story.

Yeah but how you make a case as a player? We have already seen an instance in which an Italian player got banned for four years because he couldn't prove that the cream of the tournament physio did contaminate him. That guy ghosted him for months, as the court noticed and stated just days before the decision that he did always wear gloves and never used that one.

I wonder now if the girl which kissed Gasquet was actually tested or just testified.
 

RSJfan

Professional
Sinner will be thrown in jail…

The most likely outcome of the WADA appeal is that the arbitration panel will not suspend Carrot but all of his slam titles and weeks at #1 will be awarded to FEDR because that is what most tennis fans prefer.

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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The tribunal chose to believe the evidence of the tournament physio over the player, and unless you're there and read all the evidence it's hard to second-guess their conclusion.

Gasquet's case involved cocaine so he just had to show that the amount present was consistent with the mode of exposure and the tribunal was satisfied.

Yeah but how you make a case as a player? We have already seen an instance in which an Italian player got banned for four years because he couldn't prove that the cream of the tournament physio did contaminate him. That guy ghosted him for months, as the court noticed and stated just days before the decision that he did always wear gloves and never used that one.

I wonder now if the girl which kissed Gasquet was actually tested or just testified.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Contamination by handshake would be far more difficult to envisage than a massage by a physio.

I understand... but in this hypotethical scenario it may be borderline impossible to prove (how many hands an athlete shook in a day/week?) and, moreover, no one will believe his defense anyway (like nobody believe him today), so reputation (and sponsors) are gone forever.
 

Winner Sinner

Professional
What many do not know is that all those who test positive, and are therefore immediately disqualified by practice, all have the right to lodge an emergency appeal against the disqualification, but to be temporarily exonerated from the sanction (disqualification) they must be able to quickly reconstruct the reasons for the presumed accidental contamination.
Sinner, through his pool of lawyers, was able to immediately understand the contamination, while others did not even know the reasons for the cause, let alone reconstruct the reason for the contamination.

And in any case no, no results obtained from the moment of the positive tests onwards will be taken away from him, apart from the points already taken away in the Indian Wells tournament.
In its appeal against the first instance verdict of the independent tribunal, Wada explicitly made it clear through its press release that in this appeal it will not ask that Sinner be retroactively deprived of the results and points obtained from the moment of the positive results onwards.
 

Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
Will Medvedev be the Australian Open winner? The score of this final looks more strange than ever now. He was clearly the better player in the first 2 sets and a half. The only issue in the end was fitness, Sinner looked more fresh and wore him out in the 5th set. Imagine the season Medvedev would have had if he'd won the Australian Open. It destroyed him mentally.

It was one of the most bizarre matches we have ever seen. Your favourite Meddy was absolutely on fire and looked to be cruising to a Melbourne Major.
And then Meddy suddenly crashed. Everyone attributed it to Meddy's long matches earlier in tournament.
Along with Meddy's GOAT proclivity to choke (with all due respect to your other favourite Kamala).

Compare and contrast to Sinner who appeared shockingly fresh as a daisy as the match wore on. Very very odd. Everyone chalked it up to youth.
But the Sinner bashers claim it was something else? :unsure:

maxresdefault.jpg


All the Sinner haters that are alleging doping need to screw their heads on and think clearly.
*IF* the young Sinner was doping in Melbourne how did he avoid a positive in the land down under?
These players are tested once per week on average in conformance with the spirit of WADA.
It would be impossible.
Why did Sinner's brilliant doping masking strategy work in Feb and fail in March?
Of course these Sinner haters never have an answer to this basic doping question. Dunderheads never do.
:rolleyes:
 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Neither the ATP nor WADA has any say in the matter. There is an original tribunal and an appeals tribunal.

If the original decision is seen as incorrect, parties can appeal.

IF the ATP accepted Sinner's explanation of his doping situation, then WADA should have no say in the matter.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
He won't. The process WADA has discriminates against players and assumes they are guilty from the onset. So a player tests positive and they immediately get removed. Many times the facts show they are not guilty of anything, so then they get reinstated. Should be exactly reversed.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The system works on strict liability. If there is dope in your system then you are "guilty".

The player can then ask to continue playing while a tribunal is convened in secrecy.

Or, you stop playing and the tribunal process begins as a public process.

He won't. The process WADA has discriminates against players and assumes they are guilty from the onset. So a player tests positive and they immediately get removed. Many times the facts show they are not guilty of anything, so then they get reinstated. Should be exactly reversed.
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
Career is done. Over. You do not recover from a 2 year absence. At least not 2 years and come back to dominating. Maybe has some runs and maybe one more slam, but will become the greatest hypothetical after a Young Fed.
Kim Clijsters "retired" to have a baby and missed 10 slams in a row -- the equivalent of 2.5 years. She came back and won the first slam she played in, the USO. Her first full year back, she won the the USO again, plus the WTA Finals, plus Miami, plus Cincinnati. She finished the year ranked no. 3. Then she won the AO. She also briefly regained the no. 1 ranking that year. There's a fairy tale quality to this career arc, but it's pretty impressive.
 

Drob

Hall of Fame
Kim Clijsters "retired" to have a baby and missed 10 slams in a row -- the equivalent of 2.5 years. She came back and won the first slam she played in, the USO. Her first full year back, she won the the USO again, plus the WTA Finals, plus Miami, plus Cincinnati. She finished the year ranked no. 3. Then she won the AO. She also briefly regained the no. 1 ranking that year. There's a fairy tale quality to this career arc, but it's pretty impressive.
Delpo would have won a Slam or two after two years out with injury had he not cracked his knee. He was on his way. 36-37 year old Gonzalez won BIG tournaments and bedeviled Laver & Rosewall in 1964-65 following a full two-year "retirement". Margaret Court was out for well over a year then won CYGS, no? How long was Agassi out of the game - a year? But agree w Lleytonstation also. His pt is hard to dispute.
 
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Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Kim Clijsters "retired" to have a baby and missed 10 slams in a row -- the equivalent of 2.5 years. She came back and won the first slam she played in, the USO. Her first full year back, she won the the USO again, plus the WTA Finals, plus Miami, plus Cincinnati. She finished the year ranked no. 3. Then she won the AO. She also briefly regained the no. 1 ranking that year. There's a fairy tale quality to this career arc, but it's pretty impressive.
That was the WTA lol.
 

1H-Backhand

Rookie
I have been reading so many contradictory informations on social medias. Articles contradicting each other, giving unreliable or incomplete informations. His detractors stupidly think he doped on purpose and want him gone at all costs, but they aren't aware of what truly happened or what he incurs. His fans are blindly defending him and seem so sure he did nothing wrong and nothing bad will happen to him. The other people either don't care or they rely on biased/bogus articles. What does he truly risk if WADA wins the case and punishes him?

Will Medvedev be the Australian Open winner? The score of this final looks more strange than ever now. He was clearly the better player in the first 2 sets and a half. The only issue in the end was fitness, Sinner looked more fresh and wore him out in the 5th set. Imagine the season Medvedev would have had if he'd won the Australian Open. It destroyed him mentally. If (and it's a big IF) Sinner loses his case and gets the ban, I'd be enraged if I were Medvedev. Is this even a possibility? I know his positive tests were in March so I'd say NO, but I have read many people claiming yes and wanting Medvedev to get this trophy. I'm confused. What about De Minaur in Rotterdam, Dimitrov in Miami and Hurkacz in Halle? Would they automatically be the winner of these tournaments? I don't count Tiafoe and Fritz, since he was cleared during the Cincinnati open. De Minaur shouldn't either, as Rotterdam was in February. But there is a big mystery around Dimitrov and Hurkacz. They should be the real winners of Miami and Halle, IF Sinner is declared guilty.
What about the weeks spent at number #1 since the positive tests? I just checked at Djokovic's ranking. He only lost the spot during the week of June 3. He slipped from #2 to #4 during the week of September 9. There were 14 weeks between Roland-Garros and the US Open. This means Djokovic would have been the world number #1 if Sinner had been banned and/or deprived from his points won in March/April/May/June/July/August. For now Sinner only lost his Indian-Wells points. But logically he should also lose every points he won between his positive tests and Cincinnati when he "won" his first case. If I were Djokovic, I would feel robbed if I know the only obstacle keeping me from the number #1 spot should have been banned. I would definitely complain and try to get those 14 weeks back. 14 weeks is a HUGE loss, even for a guy like Djokovic. There are so many examples of players (ATP or WTA) who tested positive and weren't allowed to play until the case was officially over, even if they're declared innocent in the end. Halep, Jarry and that other Italian player (I forgot his name) come to my mind, but there were many others. They had similar excuses as Sinner to justify their positive tests... and yet they were still banned for several months until the trial.
And then for the ban itself, what does he incur? Could he really face a two-year ban or it's just an unfounded rumor? When would it begin? Could he be banned for most of the 2025 season and if it happens, does Zverev (or whoever is number #2 at this moment) automatically become the number #1?

It's all so confusing right now. I know it's a lot of questions, but does anyone have truthful informations with sources? It's just so hard to find anything reliable on social medias. Thank you.
You start on the right track by saying "his detractors STUPIDLY think he doped..." and then somehow lose yourself by implying that if Sinner gets banned everybody who lost to him should feel aggrieved and should be given the trophy. You obviously seem to be one of the latter category: "Those who rely on bogus informations" and does not know what he's talking about.
Everybody, including WADA, knows and have established that Jannik did NOT dope and that he did NOT gain any advantage whatsoever (if anything he was at a disadvantage for most of the year because of the weight of this allegations and still managed to win!)
If he gets banned, it's only because they decide he had some form of responsibility and negligence (being the one who chooses and employs his assistants) for how a banned substance (albeit in minuscular quantity) ended up in his system. End of.
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
That was the WTA lol.
ATP players seldom take time off to have babies, so two-year career interruptions are less common among them. Coming back from a significant injury is not the best point of comparison because, well, it requires recovery from a serious injury, which a ban wouldn't involve.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
ATP players seldom take time off to have babies, so two-year career interruptions are less common among them. Coming back from a significant injury is not the best point of comparison because, well, it requires recovery from a serious injury, which a ban wouldn't involve.
I guess we do not have too many good comparisons. But WTA is not consistent and the stamina is not as important either. I do not think those 2 are comparable for this type of situation.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The system is one of strict liability, so if dope is in your system you have doped. This is a penalty of up to two years if unintentional.

No one can claim no fault by shifting responsibility onto the team, or at least that has not been allowed until the Sinner "miracle judgement".

You start on the right track by saying "his detractors STUPIDLY think he doped..." and then somehow lose yourself by implying that if Sinner gets banned everybody who lost to him should feel aggrieved and should be given the trophy. You obviously seem to be one of the latter category: "Those who rely on bogus informations" and does not know what he's talking about.
Everybody, including WADA, knows and have established that Jannik did NOT dope and that he did NOT gain any advantage whatsoever (if anything he was at a disadvantage for most of the year because of the weight of this allegations and still managed to win!)
If he gets banned, it's only because they decide he had some form of responsibility and negligence (being the one who chooses and employs his assistants) for how a banned substance (albeit in minuscular quantity) ended up in his system. End of.
 

1H-Backhand

Rookie
The system is one of strict liability, so if dope is in your system you have doped. This is a penalty of up to two years if unintentional.

No one can claim no fault by shifting responsibility onto the team, or at least that has not been allowed until the Sinner "miracle judgement".
Your quote is an intrinsic contradiction. The very meaning of "you have doped" requires intention. This is a clear cut case of contamination. And if the system is one of strict liability then he will get some kind of punishment. Or maybe this could be the time to reflect on whether the system needs adjusting allowing for discretion in clear cut cases where the athlete is a victim of unintentional contamination. The sole purpose of anti-doping agencies should be to prevent athletes from cheating and gaining an advantage. Not to destroy or damage the careers of those unlucky enough to fall victim of unintentional contamination.
 

FreeJannik

New User
Maybe will just play Saudi LIV Tour and bag 6 millions for every match.
This may lead to unforseen consequences.... what if top other top players start to skip grand slams in favor of "rich" exhibitions? The whole ATP/Grand slam system will lose interest and crumble...
 

vokazu

Legend
This may lead to unforseen consequences.... what if top other top players start to skip grand slams in favor of "rich" exhibitions? The whole ATP/Grand slam system will lose interest and crumble...
Then we will find out which players who really love tennis and integrity, and which players who sacrifice their integrity for money.
 
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