What factor is most limiting to one's tennis growth/progression?

[Robert F]

As I'm enjoying the Australian Open and watching these athlete blast serves, blister groundstrokes and cover depths of the court that are off camera, I sometimes wonder would I even be able to see the ball coming at me?
It then makes me think, even if I had perfect strokes are their some inherent characteristics that will limit progress no matter how pure your stroke is?

Endurance is important, but if you had great technique, I think you could still become a world class player, and at the rec level even if your endurance was great it wouldn't hold back the development of your game.
Footspeed is important, but again if you had world class technique, you'd be able to grow your game.

But, I wonder if you don't have good eyes/vision of the ball you will eventually stall in how far you can go. Makes me think of some players that can crush balls at the lower level but once they play someone that hits too fast they can't time the ball right and are just beaten up.
As I think deeper, is it the ablity to watch see the ball well or is it hand eye coordination. Somewhere in there if you can't properly spot or time the ball you will hit a wall.

I even think we see that on the pro level. Guys in the top 100 look unstoppable but when they play the top 20 just get crushed because they can't adapt to that level of speed and play?

 

[10sbeast888]

it's not a factor.. it's many factors. - player's natural ability, motivation/work ethic; coaching, distractions, external resources financial or otherwise.

all the stars need to line up to get to the very top. and the 'top' is self limiting, there are only 20 players in the top 20.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I will still put fitness and footwork as #1. All the technique in the world means nothing if you can get to the ball and set up to hit it, both quickly/accurately and consistently through out a match.

I will say, with my aging eyes, they DEFINITELY have had an impact on my ability to play, having issue with depth perception and also lighting.

 

[10sbeast888]

Physical athletes’ visual skills prove sharper than action video game players

Athletes still have the edge over action video gamers when it comes to dynamic visual skills, a new study shows.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[mad dog1]

As I'm enjoying the Australian Open and watching these athlete blast serves, blister groundstrokes and cover depths of the court that are off camera, I sometimes wonder would I even be able to see the ball coming at me?
It then makes me think, even if I had perfect strokes are their some inherent characteristics that will limit progress no matter how pure your stroke is?

Endurance is important, but if you had great technique, I think you could still become a world class player, and at the rec level even if your endurance was great it wouldn't hold back the development of your game.
Footspeed is important, but again if you had world class technique, you'd be able to grow your game.

But, I wonder if you don't have good eyes/vision of the ball you will eventually stall in how far you can go. Makes me think of some players that can crush balls at the lower level but once they play someone that hits too fast they can't time the ball right and are just beaten up.
As I think deeper, is it the ablity to watch see the ball well or is it hand eye coordination. Somewhere in there if you can't properly spot or time the ball you will hit a wall.

I even think we see that on the pro level. Guys in the top 100 look unstoppable but when they play the top 20 just get crushed because they can't adapt to that level of speed and play?

lots of factors...stamina, footwork, strength (lower body and core) for balance and explosiveness, ability to see & correctly read ball trajectory, spin, and speed, ability to see what your opponent is doing to help anticipate what and where they're hitting, ability to make the correct shot selections quickly when the ball is coming in at 85-140 mph...

i break tennis down into 3 main buckets.

1. ability to hit the ball
2. ability to read the ball correctly
3. ability to get to the ball

you need to be able to do all 3 at an extremely high level to be a high level player.

 

[10sbeast888]

well by definition the one that's most limiting is the one that's limiting

as so many stars need to line up, the weakest link is likely different from player to player.

 

[johnmccabe]

When you compare players with someone from higher level, everything can be limiting. doesn't mean they can't have one thing above their own level. but the limiting factors often are more than one thing, from the lung, to the mental, to the techniques, to the understanding of the game.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Time on court.

How do you eat, how do you walk? You can describe each step, but do you think about anything when doing those tasks?

Tennis can become that natural.

 

[Robert F]

lots of factors...stamina, footwork, strength (lower body and core) for balance and explosiveness, ability to see & correctly read ball trajectory, spin, and speed, ability to see what your opponent is doing to help anticipate what and where they're hitting, ability to make the correct shot selections quickly when the ball is coming in at 85-140 mph...

i break tennis down into 3 main buckets.

1. ability to hit the ball
2. ability to read the ball correctly
3. ability to get to the ball

you need to be able to do all 3 at an extremely high level to be a high level player.

I think this is a good summary of the core aspects of tennis.
But I still feel you need #2 at a high level in order to be successful with 1 and 3.

#2 directly feeds #1 and #3. But getting more fit won't help you read the ball better, having better techinque qon't help you read the ball better. But if you read the ball better you can execute your technique right, if you see the ball better you will make your movement more efficient.

 

[tennis3]

What factor is most limiting to one's tennis growth/progression?​

 

[mad dog1]

I think this is a good summary of the core aspects of tennis.
But I still feel you need #2 at a high level in order to be successful with 1 and 3.

#2 directly feeds #1 and #3. But getting more fit won't help you read the ball better, having better techinque qon't help you read the ball better. But if you read the ball better you can execute your technique right, if you see the ball better you will make your movement more efficient.

they all go hand in hand, but you need to be able to do all 3 well relative to your competition to be successful. they are all equally important. if you can read spin, depth and ball speed correctly, but you don't have the speed or movement to get to the ball, being great at #2 doesn't do you any good. if you are great at #3 so you have the ability to get to every ball and but are not great at reading spin, depth and ball speed, you will end up running to the wrong spot. if you are good at #2 and #3 but aren't good at #1, you get to the ball but don't have the ability to do anything to it.

 

[Robert F]

they all go hand in hand, but you need to be able to do all 3 well relative to your competition to be successful. they are all equally important. if you can read spin, depth and ball speed correctly, but you don't have the speed or movement to get to the ball, being great at #2 doesn't do you any good. if you are great at #3 so you have the ability to get to every ball and but are not great at reading spin, depth and ball speed, you will end up running to the wrong spot. if you are good at #2 and #3 but aren't good at #1, you get to the ball but don't have the ability to do anything to it.

I agree like 99%
But I still feel if I have the movment of a world class tennis player and the strokes of a 3.0 player, I might be able to play 4.5 or 5.0. Just outlasting so many good rec players.
If I have the ball reading ability of 2.0 with 5.0 strokes, I might be stuck being the best 2.0 player around. I'll be crushing every ball hit to me and people will be you should play up, but when I face good 4.0s the ball is moving too fast for me to time everything right.

 

[10sbeast888]

I agree like 99%
But I still feel if I have the movment of a world class tennis player and the strokes of a 3.0 player, I might be able to play 4.5 or 5.0. Just outlasting so many good rec players.
If I have the ball reading ability of 2.0 with 5.0 strokes, I might be stuck being the best 2.0 player around. I'll be crushing every ball hit to me and people will be you should play up, but when I face good 4.0s the ball is moving too fast for me to time everything right.

lol what if you can hit like ATP but move like 3.0.. you will certainly kill all the 5.0s as they won't even be able to return your serves, and you can probably walk up to the ball, have a sip of tea, and then crush any weak returns coming back.

 

[Robert F]

lol what if you can hit like ATP but move like 3.0.. you will certainly kill all the 5.0s as they won't even be able to return your serves, and you can probably walk up to the ball, have a sip of tea, and then crush any weak returns coming back.

I wonder in the futures level if you sees guys like this. They have great strokes but lack the fitness and speed. So they win a lot of free points and hold serve easy but can't break serve to safe their lifes.

 

[10sbeast888]

I wonder in the futures level if you sees guys like this. They have great strokes but lack the fitness and speed. So they win a lot of free points and hold serve easy but can't break serve to safe their lifes.

say if the average score is #1 beats #200 2&2; and #200 beats #500 2&2, your only talking about a few % in overall points won/lost.

the margins are very small up there.

 

[mad dog1]

I wonder in the futures level if you sees guys like this. They have great strokes but lack the fitness and speed. So they win a lot of free points and hold serve easy but can't break serve to safe their lifes.

No, go watch a futures event. All the guys are fast and fairly fit. I haven’t seen any players who are completely outclassed by others in terms of speed, footwork, and movement. The difference between the ones who go deeper in the tournaments are the ones with better decision making and shotmaking and are able to adapt quickly. You have to choose the right shot for the given circumstance which is also dependent on what can make your opponent uncomfortable depending on court conditions. The right shot in a given situation against player A might not be the right shot against player B. There are other factors as well.

 

[mad dog1]

I agree like 99%
But I still feel if I have the movment of a world class tennis player and the strokes of a 3.0 player, I might be able to play 4.5 or 5.0. Just outlasting so many good rec players.
If I have the ball reading ability of 2.0 with 5.0 strokes, I might be stuck being the best 2.0 player around. I'll be crushing every ball hit to me and people will be you should play up, but when I face good 4.0s the ball is moving too fast for me to time everything right.

if you have world class movement, but strokes of a 3.0 player, you wouldn't be able to handle a heavy topspin groundstroke that a 5.0 can hit even if it's right to you. in fact, the ball might have so much diving action to it that if you aren't able to read the speed, spin and trajectory correctly, you might get there and completely whiff with your 3.0 swing. i hit with a 3.5 who completely whiffed on my 60-70% rally ball that i hit right to his fh because he wasn't used to seeing the kind of spin and depth that i hit with. in a cooperative rally session sharing half the court with others, he failed to get more then 2 consecutive shots back in the court even when the ball was hit to him so just because you can get to the ball with world class movement does not mean you can actually hit the ball back in the court if the quality of the incoming ball is high enough to overwhelm your senses.

 

[10sbeast888]

in a different sport (board game) I am about a 5.5, competed in intercollegiate, and actually improved in recent years with better coaching.... however when I watch top pros (heck even low pros), I'd have no clue in the nuances of their moves.

according to this graph, the vast majority of tennis amateurs won't be able to recognize the level differences in the pros' games.

No, go watch a futures event. All the guys are fast and fairly fit. I haven’t seen any players who are completely outclassed by others in terms of speed, footwork, and movement. The difference between the ones who go deeper in the tournaments are the ones with better decision making and shotmaking and are able to adapt quickly. You have to choose the right shot for the given circumstance which is also dependent on what can make your opponent uncomfortable depending on court conditions. The right shot in a given situation against player A might not be the right shot against player B. There are other factors as well.

 

[socallefty]

To be a pro in any sport including tennis even at the lowest levels, you have to be far above average in athleticism, hand-eye coordination, visuospatial skills, balance etc. in addition to having a lot of years of experience playing the sport. Since tennis is very technique-heavy in terms of importance, it is not easy for a self-taught player to develop enough proper technique to be a pro without receiving coaching. In terms of vision, most pros would likely have better than average vision also especially if they are at the top of the sport but even if they wear contacts or glasses, the ability to react to their opponent, anticipate the next shot etc. will make them superior to rec players in reading the game and knowing where to move to early.

If you put an average kid and a pro-suitable athlete through the same training and experience since they were kids, the first would probably top out at college level while the 2nd would have a chance to become a pro. In terms of men’s pro tennis, everyone is quite fit and gone are the days when a visibly out-of-shape player can make it on tour.

 

[Robert F]

How much of reading the ball is genetic--just how fast the eyes can react and feed the brain info vs. seeing enough tennis to identify patterns to understand how the ball moves?

 

[mad dog1]

How much of reading the ball is genetic--just how fast the eyes can react and feed the brain info vs. seeing enough tennis to identify patterns to understand how the ball moves?

ball tracking is a skill. elite level ball tracking is an elite level skill that definitely requires special "talent." you can take a person who doesn't see the ball well and with lots of training through exposure to a variety of balls, they can improve their ball tracking. but no amount of training will allow them to reach the level of ball tracking that pros have.

 

[Chas Tennis]

For me, it was ignorance of stroke techniques. Especially believing things that are not true - for 3 1/2 decades.

 

[tennis3]

For me, it was ignorance of stroke techniques. Especially believing things that are not true - for 3 1/2 decades.

How much has your game improved since you left behind ignorant stroke techniques and discovered the truth?

 

[user92626]

To be a pro in any sport including tennis even at the lowest levels, you have to be far above average in athleticism, hand-eye coordination, visuospatial skills, balance etc. in addition to having a lot of years of experience playing the sport. Since tennis is very technique-heavy in terms of importance, it is not easy for a self-taught player to develop enough proper technique to be a pro without receiving coaching. In terms of vision, most pros would likely have better than average vision also especially if they are at the top of the sport but even if they wear contacts or glasses, the ability to react to their opponent, anticipate the next shot etc. will make them superior to rec players in reading the game and knowing where to move to early.

If you put an average kid and a pro-suitable athlete through the same training and experience since they were kids, the first would probably top out at college level while the 2nd would have a chance to become a pro. In terms of men’s pro tennis, everyone is quite fit and gone are the days when a visibly out-of-shape player can make it on tour.

Maybe "a pro" is too much, but certainly a very very good rec player like 5.0 IF rec players really choose to.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

I agree like 99%
But I still feel if I have the movment of a world class tennis player and the strokes of a 3.0 player, I might be able to play 4.5 or 5.0. Just outlasting so many good rec players.
If I have the ball reading ability of 2.0 with 5.0 strokes, I might be stuck being the best 2.0 player around. I'll be crushing every ball hit to me and people will be you should play up, but when I face good 4.0s the ball is moving too fast for me to time everything right.

lol what if you can hit like ATP but move like 3.0.. you will certainly kill all the 5.0s as they won't even be able to return your serves, and you can probably walk up to the ball, have a sip of tea, and then crush any weak returns coming back.

The beast is correct. I've got a real world example. Played a guy who took up tennis 3 years prior to us playing, just 3 years, he was damn good, I only found out about his newly begun tennis tourney when I had to ask him some questions because of our match...

He was doing well at first, good in warmups, fit, like triathlete/soccer/basketball combo fit, late 20s, I thought it was going to be a very competitive match. But, as the match started getting into the first few games, I hit my first lefty slice backhand to him, he couldn't barely get a racket on it and would flail in despair at it, hitting 100% errors. It was so confusing, his technique on regular shots was quite good and very athletic using his full body, but hit a lefty spin to him and it all fell apart completely.

Was his movement world class, no, but he had enough movement to play for hours without being tired, still wouldn't help him overcome that one deficiency. I had to ask him about it, then he revealed how new he was to tennis and he didn't have a lot of experience against lefty's, almost none I guess and I figure his pro lessons involved aggggresssive baseliner bashing.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

How much of reading the ball is genetic--just how fast the eyes can react and feed the brain info vs. seeing enough tennis to identify patterns to understand how the ball moves?

ball tracking is a skill. elite level ball tracking is an elite level skill that definitely requires special "talent." you can take a person who doesn't see the ball well and with lots of training through exposure to a variety of balls, they can improve their ball tracking. but no amount of training will allow them to reach the level of ball tracking that pros have.

Sure some are elite, but it's repetition or seeing the patterns as you mention. See a person hit thousands of balls in front of your eyes from age 5 or so year after year day after day and you see the patterns, I think everyone can begin to see these things.

 

[Chas Tennis]

For me, it was ignorance of stroke techniques. Especially believing things that are not true - for 3 1/2 decades.

The truth for me comes in bits and pieces, actually with each sub-motion.

I began learning the truth in 2011, when on this forum I learned about Internal Shoulder Rotation. That is the most important and least understood sub-motion in tennis. I was 68.

In 2024, I learned about Spinal Engine from bits and pieces said by coach Gavin MacMillian in my thread, The Serve - What's True? I believe what MacMillan has to say, but can't see spinal bends in high speed video.

I performed a few one hand backhands many years ago that were very strong and did not understand what I had done. Running, I knew & felt that I could hit it before I did on the first one. That was my only discovered new strong tennis stroke.

Some years later, in 2013, I started a long 1HBH thread to study how I had performed those few 1HBHs.

One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

One Hand Backhand - What Force to Start Forward Swing? I have just been watching great one-hand backhands at the Madrid Open. Including excellent slow motion that can be replayed in even slower motion or single frame with my DVR. Often when I try to swing forward for a one hand backhand...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Over the years, I found many specific 1HBH sub-motions that are in the best 1HBHs of the ATP and also Justine Henin has them. The sub-motions are spread throughout the thread, posted as I found them. I'm still posting in that thread in 2024. My backhand improved because I added uppermost body turn but practicing some did not give me the fast 'chest press' speed that I was after.

My forehand improved also as I added uppermost body turn with more separation.

In 2024, I now believe in Spinal Engine and the claim that Spinal Engine plays a central part in timing the body parts and SE may be capable of optimizing performance for all strokes, including the serve. SE is more than core.

I am 82 now and enjoy discovering sub-motions very much but practicing, not so much. I consider identifying ATP sub-motions to be "my strokes".

 

[toth]

Most of the rec players do not practise at all.
I have not a good opinion of the coaches i could have as well - maybe this situation is better in the USA i dont know. I lern more from pro videos.Sure, videos from myself would be good too...but my tennis friends do not make self videos too...
..

 

[pizzadontdie]

I wonder in the futures level if you sees guys like this. They have great strokes but lack the fitness and speed. So they win a lot of free points and hold serve easy but can't break serve to safe their lifes.

You see it with the giants, like Isner, Opelka, and even Shelton to an extent.

 

[heninfan99]

Rafa said at the top level the difference between the very top and others is 100% mental.

For hacks in the park it is stubbornness that holds people back. Just a rigid refusal to make changes.

 

[10sbeast888]

Rafa said at the top level the difference between the very top and others is 100% mental.

For hacks in the park it is stubbornness that holds people back. Just a rigid refusal to make changes.

right on about the mental.

for the hacks.. it's a mixed bag, many seem to have entered the old dog new trick phase.... somehow the brain matters have fossilized, which gives the appearance of stubbornness.

 

[5263]

I wonder in the futures level if you sees guys like this. They have great strokes but lack the fitness and speed. So they win a lot of free points and hold serve easy but can't break serve to safe their lifes.

This is all part of the beauty of the game of tennis. Seeing how different combo or bag of skills (each player with their different mix) plays out vs another bag of skills.

Imo Technique stands out a bit uniquely as the better technique you have, the better you can employ the rest of you "bag of skills". With bad technique, there is little or nothing that can save your game. If you are old, fat and slow, with good technique you can max out your diminished physical abilities, as many of us older coaches do against younger students every day. You bring us vision, which can also be a limiting factor since you can't hit what you can't see. But on the whole, given avg abilities, technique is generally the most limiting factor. Good technique is hard to find, but pretty easy to do if you can find a good source on the info. Good technique can then allow you to maximize your fitness and tactics to see how good you can be.

 

[johnmccabe]

I agree like 99%
But I still feel if I have the movment of a world class tennis player and the strokes of a 3.0 player, I might be able to play 4.5 or 5.0. Just outlasting so many good rec players.
If I have the ball reading ability of 2.0 with 5.0 strokes, I might be stuck being the best 2.0 player around. I'll be crushing every ball hit to me and people will be you should play up, but when I face good 4.0s the ball is moving too fast for me to time everything right.

Isn't this pretty much the definition of 3.5

 

[Bagumbawalla]

The most limiting factors to improvement in tennis are

1. life

2. Not having (had) wealthy parents

1- Life goes on and we sacrifice to make ends meet. Whereas we want/need to practice at least 5 hours a day, we have to work,
fix meals, go shopping, spend family time, read a book... so you are limited to maybe two hours a week.

2. So if you came from wealth, you could afford a great coach, great tennis club, hours of practice, travel to tournaments...

Otherwise your tennis life revolves around the neighborhood courts and striving to become a "4", but not really because you
are the best 3.5 on your team and nobody will want you as the worst 4 on their team.

 

[user92626]

Otherwise your tennis life revolves around the neighborhood courts and striving to become a "4", but not really because you
are the best 3.5 on your team and nobody will want you as the worst 4 on their team.

....and your online life revolves around a chat board getting tennis tips from questionable players. More nails on your tennis coffin.

I'm gonna go pour myself another drink. Waiting to watch Learner Tien play.