What happened to German tennis? A devolution with no end. ATP thread.

UnderratedSlam

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
Discussing men's tennis only.

German tennis was nowhere before Graf and Becker. The two appeared "out of nowhere", at pretty much the same time, so clearly the German federation, DTB, was doing st right in the years before that.

Then they had Stich. It was a step down (one slam), but still a big name in the 90s. (Admittedly, Stich was basically from the Becker/Graf generation, just a little younger.)

Then Haas and Kiefer, a decade younger. Both with potential, both were expected to do big things, but both underachieved for different reasons. (Haas wasn't very clutch, plus injuries. Kiefer was a bit lazy, non-clutch and distracted by other things.)

Then Kohlschreiber. Great shot-making abilities, often clutch, played very well vs top players, but somehow underachieved totally.

Then Struff. A glorified Goellner. Serve-bash, forehand-bash player, very one-dimensional, an "average" top 100 player.

Then... what? Otte? He's not bad at all but don't expect anything stellar from him.

A wealthy country of 80 million, with several slam champs, just can't get it together. At BMW Open the final was contested by Germany's small neighbours, Holland and Denmark. Rune and Zandbot. Very ironic.

Women's tennis in Germany is doing fine. But men's tennis in Germany is nowhere. Why?

Zverev is Russian...

Any Germans here who know more?
 
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Sinner and Federer are basically German, so it's not like Germans have had no talent. (Understatement.)

So why are there no top German talents playing for Germany?

Zverev is Russian... just to reiterate.

Russian.

He has a German passport but his parents came from Russia. He has a Russian first name and surname.
 
Zevrev is German. He was born in Germany and plays under the German flag. There are a lot of people obsessed with names and dna on this board. He didn’t train in Russia he trained in Germany. He is German. As an American I cannot for the life of me understand peoples obsession with this crap.
 
insideguy said:
Zevrev is German. He was born in Germany and plays under the German flag. There are a lot of people obsessed with names and dna on this board. He didn’t train in Russia he trained in Germany. He is German. As an American I cannot for the life of me understand peoples obsession with this crap.
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Let us know when you become European and better understand us...
 
In the 1990s, Germany had both YECs with the ATP Tour World Championship being in Frankfurt (1990-1995) and Hanover (1996-1999) and the Grand Slam Cup in Munich (1990-1999). They had the Hamburg Super 9 event on clay (which stayed so up to 2008), the Stuttgart Outdoor clay event in July which was an ATP 500 equivalent up to 2008, and also a Stuttgart Indoor carpet event (Eurocard Open) that was an ATP 250 equivalent up to early 1995, then moved to Essen later in the year to become a Super 9 event (which Muster won) before the Super 9 event moved back to Stuttgart in 1996, staying a Super 9 event up to 2001. There's also Halle on grass, an event which started in 1993 as an ATP 250 equivalent and stayed that way up to 2014.

The YEC left Germany after the 1990s ended, Hamburg was downgraded to ATP 500 status from 2009 and put in a hard slot for a clay event in this era of late July/early August. The Stuttgart Outdoor clay tournament from 2009 was downgraded to ATP 250 status and moved forward a week or so, and then changed to a grass event in 2015 and moved forward a month in the calendar. Halle became a rare example of a German tennis tournament being upgraded when it was moved to ATP 500 status in 2015.
 
insideguy said:
Get off of your someone is something cause their parent were. The guy has never played for Russia never trained in Russia he’s a part of german tennis. It’s like me say Agassi is from Iran. It’s ridiculous
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Agassi is half-Iranian. Not quite the same, is it...
 
You want to discuss the state of German tennis but exclude Zverev from it, which seems weird. Hasn’t he, besides being a German citizen, been doing quite a lot of training there? And isn’t it exactly that, the possibilities you have to grow and develop as a tennis player in Germany, exactly what should be the focus for your thread?
 
Arak said:
Canada: FAA was born in Africa. Shapovalov is Russian.
France: has no good players.
Sweden: ditto
England: Norrie born in South Africa.
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France has the usual talented young players who will underachieve. They have been fairly constant in the recent decades this way.

Sweden is a real mystery. Norway, Finland and Denmark have prospects, but Sweden doesn't. That is amazing.

England always relies on Scots and South Africans to get their glory. (With apologies to Evans.) Murray even tries to sound less Scottish to make them happy. His accent must have been a lot different before...?
 
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UnderratedSlam said:
Agassi is half-Iranian. Not quite the same, is it...
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Apparently not to you. You just make up what someone is by their last name or who their parents were. I mean I’m not technically American my dad was German and Irish. My mom was Croatian and Slovenian. My last name is Irish. That doesn’t make me anything except I’m an American
 
Aabye5 said:
Probably not, but that's not to say he isn't talented.

In general, Germany could probably use some more Challengers. They have three on clay, but I think many of the public courts are hard.
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I have to wonder how much interest and motivation there is among young German kids to become tennis pros. Compared to much earlier.
 
insideguy said:
Apparently not to you. You just make up what someone is by their last name or who their parents were. I mean I’m not technically American my dad was German and Irish. My mom was Croatian and Slovenian. My last name is Irish. That doesn’t make me anything except I’m an American
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Mischa Zverev was born in Russia.

Fun fact.
 
insideguy said:
Apparently not to you. You just make up what someone is by their last name or who their parents were. I mean I’m not technically American my dad was German and Irish. My mom was Croatian and Slovenian. My last name is Irish. That doesn’t make me anything except I’m an American
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So... why do you believe Germany has fallen as a tennis nation, as far as ATP?
 
UnderratedSlam said:
I have to wonder how much interest and motivation there is among young German kids to become tennis pros. Compared to much earlier.
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No, there are like 20 in high the 1000s, as far as rankings. That suggests they could benefit from some Challengers on their better surface. If you keep getting wildcards to clay events and prefer hard courts, your ranking won't change that much. Also, having 2 on clay or 2 on hard would give their youngest players a lot more experience.
 
Aabye5 said:
No, there are like 20 in high the 1000s, as far as rankings. That suggests they could benefit from some Challengers on their better surface. If you keep getting wildcards to clay events and prefer hard courts, your ranking won't change that much. Also, having 2 on clay or 2 on hard would give their youngest players a lot more experience.
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Good point.

So the interest is there, the numbers are there, but the big success, the slams, are missing.

So are they becoming like the next France that way?
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Sinner and Federer are basically German, so it's not like Germans have had no talent. (Understatement.)

So why are there no top German talents playing for Germany?

Zverev is Russian... just to reiterate.

Russian.

He has a German passport but his parents came from Russia. He has a Russian first name and surname.
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Zverev doesn't look very Russian to me.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
So... why do you believe Germany has fallen as a tennis nation, as far as ATP?
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Things go in cycles. Same as Australia or USA or Sweden or many many other countries. I don’t really see them as fallen at all. They had a few really great players they were never a huge tennis power. It’s just Becker and graf came on at similar times. It happens
 
insideguy said:
Things go in cycles. Same as Australia or USA or Sweden or many many other countries. I don’t really see them as fallen at all. They had a few really great players they were never a huge tennis power. It’s just Becker and graf came on at similar times. It happens
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Yes, but they had Haas and Keifer after that, and they were more successful than the ones AFTER that. It seems like a clear steady decline.
 
@Mustard gave a great response to this question.

Another big reason German tennis has faltered in the last 30 years is that there hasn't been a great, dominating German player who won slams and became #1. So interest in the sport has plummeted. The Germans had Gottfried von Cramm in the 1930's who won a couple of Wimbledon titles and then really nothing until Becker won Wimbledon in 1985. That was massive for Germany and transcended the sport. Most people here weren't alive in 1985 and all I can say is that when Boris won Wimbledon it was huge, world-wide news. He was an absolute phenom. He was 500 times the hype of Carlos, probably because he had won two majors by the time he was just 18.

I won't get into the Zverev nationality question, but whereas Boris was adored during his playing years in Germany, Zverev is not. He's a polarizing figure because of his on-court behavior and the allegations against him. Boris was worshiped, Zverev emphatically is not, even in Germany.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
He looks a lot like a certain Moscow born man called Mischa.

But I am sure that is a coincidence...
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Mischa does not look like an ethnic russian either.

If Mischa or Zverev's parents are Russians because they were born in Russia then Zverev is German because he was born in Germany. If you're actually looking at ethnicity not nationality, as it seemed like you were since you said Federer was german, it's clear they are not Russian.
 
Is club tennis still as big. It used to be strong Germans just hung around and earned a good living playing for a club.
 
BeatlesFan said:
@Mustard gave a great response to this question.

Another big reason German tennis has faltered in the last 30 years is that there hasn't been a great, dominating German player who won slams and became #1. So interest in the sport has plummeted. The Germans had Gottfried von Cramm in the 1930's who won a couple of Wimbledon titles and then really nothing until Becker won Wimbledon in 1985. That was massive for Germany and transcended the sport. Most people here weren't alive in 1985 and all I can say is that when Boris won Wimbledon it was huge, world-wide news. He was an absolute phenom. He was 500 times the hype of Carlos, probably because he had won two majors by the time he was just 18.

I won't get into the Zverev nationality question, but whereas Boris was adored during his playing years in Germany, Zverev is not. He's a polarizing figure because of his on-court behavior and the allegations against him. Boris was worshiped, Zverev emphatically is not, even in Germany.
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Becker winning 1985 Wimby was like an earthquake in tennis, and like a religious event in Germany. It was really huge.
 
metsman said:
Mischa does not look like an ethnic russian either.

If Mischa or Zverev's parents are Russians because they were born in Russia then Zverev is German because he was born in Germany. If you're actually looking at ethnicity not nationality, as it seemed like you were since you said Federer was german, it's clear they are not Russian.
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Never sad he does...

Just weaseled in the comment that he was born in Russia...
 
insideguy said:
Apparently not to you. You just make up what someone is by their last name or who their parents were. I mean I’m not technically American my dad was German and Irish. My mom was Croatian and Slovenian. My last name is Irish. That doesn’t make me anything except I’m an American
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Your country is a melting pot of ethnicities. Otherwise only the native Americans can claim to be truly American. In the old world people tend to be more tribal.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Zverev is Russian... just to reiterate.

Russian.

He has a German passport but his parents came from Russia. He has a Russian first name and surname.
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"just to reiterate"? Does that mean that if you say it over again and again it will become the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Will Alexander Zverev's children be Russian too?

We all know that he has the German passport but doesn't he also have the German Birth Certificate? Or, is it that his" Russian blood type" is on his German Birth Cert? Will Alexander Zverev become German, if he changes his name to Alex Tier perhaps?

In conclusion, I hope that I have not misread your compelling thread.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Good point.

So the interest is there, the numbers are there, but the big success, the slams, are missing.

So are they becoming like the next France that way?
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Not really. France has a lot of Challengers and they have a young players coming through the ranks: Debru, Van Assche, Cazaux, Fils

As far as the older generation in France, they lacked neither talent or resources. Tsonga was competing before the injures. Monfils is perhaps a more talented, more genial Kyrgios.

Gasquet never recovered from his ban, and I could never tell how much he enjoyed playing versus how much his father wanted him to play.
 
Aabye5 said:
Not really. France has a lot of Challengers and they have a young players coming through the ranks: Debru, Van Assche, Cazaux, Fils

As far as the older generation in France, they lacked neither talent or resources. Tsonga was competing before the injures. Monfils is perhaps a more talented, more genial Kyrgios.

Gasquet never recovered from his ban, and I could never tell how much he enjoyed playing versus how much his father wanted him to play.
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I meant like France in the sense of underachieving despite the talent.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Exactly. Some Americans don't understand Europe, not do some of them try to. I am informed about the States, but I'm not sure how informed Americans are about us Europeans.
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Hey buddy I’m actually married to a German who is a us citizen. Her mom lives in Germany so does her brother. So don’t lecture me on what I understand or not
 
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