What happened to German tennis? A devolution with no end. ATP thread.

Visionary said:
"just to reiterate"? Does that mean that if you say it over again and again it will become the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Will Alexander Zverev's children be Russian too?

We all know that he has the German passport but doesn't he also have the German Birth Certificate? Or, is it that his" Russian blood type" is on his German Birth Cert? Will Alexander Zverev become German, if he changes his name to Alex Tier perhaps?

In conclusion, I hope that I have not misread your compelling thread.
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Technically speaking, you need to be second generation. So basically his children are German, but he is a Russian born in Germany, and holding a German passport.
 
Visionary said:
"just to reiterate"? Does that mean that if you say it over again and again it will become the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Will Alexander Zverev's children be Russian too?

We all know that he has the German passport but doesn't he also have the German Birth Certificate? Or, is it that his" Russian blood type" is on his German Birth Cert? Will Alexander Zverev become German, if he changes his name to Alex Tier perhaps?

In conclusion, I hope that I have not misread your compelling thread.
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Aren't you the guy who made up that nonsense on that other thread that I said Boris Becker was a psychopath?

Yeah, you never apologized for that, so talk to the hand, until I decide otherwise...
 
UnderratedSlam said:
He is German, yet he isn't.

It's tough to explain...
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He's likely ethnically german and he grew up in germany and trained in germany so for any interpretation of this discussion, genetic or developmental, he's german.

Of course he's a mug, but every country in the world these days is only producing mugs so it's not really a German thing.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
I mean like France in the sense of underachieving despite the talent.
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No, I think it is support, to some extent. They just hosted a 250, and could only cough up one wild card for a local youngster. Let's see how many they provide for the Challenger in Troisdorf.

Maybe they didn't get one because there's no talent, but having a slew of Challengers enables the Italian tournaments to be quite generous.
 
Arak said:
Technically speaking, you need to be second generation. So basically his children are German, but he is a Russian born in Germany, and holding a German passport.
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So, if he marries a Russian in Germany, their kids will be German "technically" and practically then. Racist world!
 
Aabye5 said:
No, I think it is support, to some extent. They just hosted a 250, and could only cough up one wild card for a local youngster. Let's see how many they provide for the Challenger in Troisdorf.

Maybe they didn't get one because there's no talent, but having a slew of Challengers enables the Italian tournaments to be quite generous.
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Challengers and Futures are definitely very important, can't disagree there at all...

BMW only had 3 WCs and they gave two to Germans.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Discussing men's tennis only.

German tennis was nowhere before Graf and Becker. The two appeared "out of nowhere", at pretty much the same time, so clearly the German federation, DTB, was doing st right in the years before that.

Then they had Stich. It was a step down (one slam), but still a big name in the 90s. (Admittedly, Stich was basically from the Becker/Graf generation, just a little younger.)

Then Haas and Kiefer, a decade younger. Both with potential, both were expected to do big things, but both underachieved for different reasons. (Haas wasn't very clutch, plus injuries. Kiefer was a bit lazy, non-clutch and distracted by other things.)

Then Kohlschreiber. Great shot-making abilities, often clutch, played very well vs top players, but somehow underachieved totally.

Then Struff. A glorified Goellner. Serve-bash, forehand-bash player, very one-dimensional, an "average" top 100 player.

Then... what? Otte? He's not bad at all but don't expect anything stellar from him.

A wealthy country of 80 million, with several slam champs, just can't get it together. At BMW Open the final was contested by Germany's small neighbours, Holland and Denmark. Rune and Zandbot. Very ironic.

Women's tennis in Germany is doing fine. But men's tennis in Germany is nowhere. Why?

Zverev is Russian...

Any Germans here who know more?
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Do we really write out of nowhere as "out of nowhere"
 
Mustard said:
In the 1990s, Germany had both YECs with the ATP Tour World Championship being in Frankfurt (1990-1995) and Hanover (1996-1999) and the Grand Slam Cup in Munich (1990-1999). They had the Hamburg Super 9 event on clay (which stayed so up to 2008), the Stuttgart Outdoor clay event in July which was an ATP 500 equivalent up to 2008, and also a Stuttgart Indoor carpet event (Eurocard Open) that was an ATP 250 equivalent up to early 1995, then moved to Essen later in the year to become a Super 9 event (which Muster won) before the Super 9 event moved back to Stuttgart in 1996, staying a Super 9 event up to 2001. There's also Halle on grass, an event which started in 1993 as an ATP 250 equivalent and stayed that way up to 2014.

The YEC left Germany after the 1990s ended, Hamburg was downgraded to ATP 500 status from 2009 and put in a hard slot for a clay event in this era of late July/early August. The Stuttgart Outdoor clay tournament from 2009 was downgraded to ATP 250 status and moved forward a week or so, and then changed to a grass event in 2015 and moved forward a month in the calendar. Halle became a rare example of a German tennis tournament being upgraded when it was moved to ATP 500 status in 2015.
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That was basically all a result of Becker and Graf though. Hamburg was an established event, but moving the YEC to Germany, creating the GS Cup, etc... all those things would never have happened without the Boris/Steffi-inspired boom. The NY Times even reported in 1998 that the ATP was seeking a merger with the WTA. The reason? Becker had retired, and their sponsorship Deutschmarks were disappearing.

As for what happened to the sport... I suspect that Germans have just never been overly committed to producing tennis players. Too many other sports they participate in? Too many other distractions for young athletes? They hit paydirt twice, and happened to do so at the same time. It created a short term boom, but wasn't going to sustain itself without those icons.
 
Arak said:
You are correct. Had any of his Russian parents been born in Germany, he would have been German, technically and practically and even ethnically.
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What some people fail to understand that the 1st generation born in a foreign country is always in that "netherworld" between its origins and the new home. Not here nor there. Both yet neither.

The 2nd generation then becomes a clear-cut case, especially if their parent is an immigrant who marries a local.
 
insideguy said:
Zevrev is German. He was born in Germany and plays under the German flag. There are a lot of people obsessed with names and dna on this board. He didn’t train in Russia he trained in Germany. He is German. As an American I cannot for the life of me understand peoples obsession with this crap.
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No he's Russian. German by citizenship only. There's also a bunch of British players who are from different countries - Konta (Hungary), Raducanu (Romanian/Chinese), Norrie (South African). And there's a bunch of Canadian players who are Eastern European or French - Shapovalov (Israeli I believe, maybe Russian), Raonic (Croatian), FAA (French).
 
insideguy said:
Things go in cycles. Same as Australia or USA or Sweden or many many other countries. I don’t really see them as fallen at all. They had a few really great players they were never a huge tennis power. It’s just Becker and graf came on at similar times. It happens
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Cycles is right, but there is another factor driving the cycles. Looking at all the waves of top players, they almost never come from a rich, decadent country, at least not that I can remember, and if they did, they came from immigrant families. For Graf and Becker, they emerged just around the time Germany was reclaiming its status as a truly rich country as prior to the 80s it was still recovering from WWII and dealing with Cold War tension. You could almost say that it was more Eastern than Western Europe back in those days. The top players from the US in the 90s were Sampras, Agassi and Chang who were all from immigrant families, with Courier being the exception. Now you look at countries where the top players come from in the 2000s and 2010s and they are mostly from poorer countries even if the player comes from a wealthy family. I’m not saying this is the predominant reason for top players no longer emerging from rich countries, but it is ONE reason. It probably has to do with the lack of other career opportunities available in poorer countries driving many youths to athletics as an alternative and as a source of national pride. With all the opportunities and first world distractions in the US, it doesn’t surprise me at all that we haven’t been able to produce another top player. The most recent all time great (the Williams) also did not come from a well off family. Part of the problem in the US, I think, is tennis has become a very expensive sport if a player wants top tier instruction/coaching as a youth. And so that automatically puts a bias in favor of well to do kids who are not likely to ever have the kind of crazy hunger to be a world #1. I imagine that a similar factor is at play now in Germany, to answer the OP.
 
Jokervich said:
No he's Russian. German by citizenship only. There's also a bunch of British players who are actually foreign - Konta (Hungary), Raducanu (Romanian/Chinese), Norrie (South African). And there's a bunch of Canadian players who are Eastern European or French - Shapovalov (Israeli I believe, maybe Russian), Raonic (Croatian), FAA (French).
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You're gonna get crucified by the PC bunch now!

Get ready for battle...

Of course, you are right, but for some reason those who preach "diversity" actually dislike diversity. They want everyone to be the same thing.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Challengers and Futures are definitely very important, can't disagree there at all...

BMW only had 3 WCs and they gave two to Germans.
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True, although mysteriously in the qualies, one of the wildcards went to Marko Topo, a young Serbian player around the same age as those young German players.

It's good to look at talent and not just nationality when awarding wildcards, but if any of any of the German players can pick one up elsewhere.
 
insideguy said:
My German wife just read this thread and is laughing her ass off.
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I didn't realize poll results were decided on a sample of one...

Weird.

Lemme know when you interview several thousand Germans...

And glad that laughter is finally used as proof in a court of law... A revolutionary new approach.
 
But then my wife laughed and said maybe she isn’t even German cause her parents were born in Austria Hungary which where her dad was born is now part of Serbia. I mean maybe nadal isn’t even Spanish. We need to look at that
 
Aabye5 said:
True, although mysteriously in the qualies, one of the wildcards went to Marko Topo, a young Serbian player around the same age as those young German players.

It's good to look at talent and not just nationality when awarding wildcards, but if any of any of the German players can pick one up elsewhere.
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The Topo thing is very fishy, I noticed that too and was very confused.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
What some people fail to understand that the 1st generation born in a foreign country is always in that "netherworld" between its origins and the new home. Not here nor there. Both yet neither.

The 2nd generation then becomes a clear-cut case, especially if their parent is an immigrant who marries a local.
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Indeed, the second generation rule is quite universally accepted, and it’s even the law in Germany for giving citizenship with exceptions.
 
insideguy said:
But then my wife laughed and said maybe she isn’t even German cause her parents were born in Austria Hungary which where her dad was born is now part of Serbia. I mean maybe nadal isn’t even Spanish. We need to look at that
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I'm just glad you're getting an education in European ancestry and ethnicity. Bottom line.

And it's all because of this thread.

Thank me later...
 
wangs78 said:
Cycles is right, but there is another factor driving the cycles. Looking at all the waves of top players, they almost never come from a rich, decadent country, at least not that I can remember, and if they did, they came from immigrant families. For Graf and Becker, they emerged just around the time Germany was reclaiming its status as a truly rich country as prior to the 80s it was still recovering from WWII and dealing with Cold War tension. You could almost say that it was more Eastern than Western Europe back in those days. The top players from the US in the 90s were Sampras, Agassi and Chang who were all from immigrant families, with Courier being the exception. Now you look at countries where the top players come from in the 2000s and 2010s and they are mostly from poorer countries even if the player comes from a wealthy family. I’m not saying this is the predominant reason for top players no longer emerging from rich countries, but it is ONE reason. It probably has to do with the lack of other career opportunities available in poorer countries driving many youths to athletics as an alternative and as a source of national pride. With all the opportunities and first world distractions in the US, it doesn’t surprise me at all that we haven’t been able to produce another top player. The most recent all time great (the Williams) also did not come from a well off family. Part of the problem in the US, I think, is tennis has become a very expensive sport if a player wants top tier instruction/coaching as a youth. And so that automatically puts a bias in favor of well to do kids who are not likely to ever have the kind of crazy hunger to be a world #1. I imagine that a similar factor is at play now in Germany, to answer the OP.
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I don’t really look at west Germany as not rich when graf and Becker came along. They were probably in the top 15 richest countries at the time by gdp. And Sweden when borg and others came along was not poor. I sort of see your point but I don’t think it applies all the time
 
UnderratedSlam said:
I'm just glad you're getting an education in European ancestry and ethnicity. Bottom line.

And it's all because of this thread.

Thank me later...
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Your not educating me on anything except for ignorance. Zev says he is German. He plays under German flag. He was born in Germany. You tell him he isn’t German.
 
insideguy said:
But then my wife laughed and said maybe she isn’t even German cause her parents were born in Austria Hungary which where her dad was born is now part of Serbia. I mean maybe nadal isn’t even Spanish. We need to look at that
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German minorities born in as far as Romania were given German citizenship after they were kicked out.
 
In Germany football is by far the most popular sport and no other sports can really compete in the long run. There are only certain hypes from time to time if we have a great player (for instance when Nowitzki entered the NBA, basketball was at an all time high), but this quickly vanishes when said player disappears and no equally good successor follows.

Same happened in tennis: During the Graf/Becker/Stich era tennis was booming and thousands of parents let their kids play in the hope to get the next Boris. Once these big three retired, Haas and Kiefer were under immense pressure to follow their footsteps (German sport fans are very demanding with their sports stars and only accept winning) which they couldn’t achieve in the end. After Kiefer and Haas also got older, tennis quickly decreased in popularity, especially as this fell together with Nowitzki and the mentioned temporary basketball boom (from my tennis club during that time I knew three kids who left tennis for basketball, even though they were all pretty good). In my town where I live there were a lot of public tennis courts and indoor centers 20 years ago that are now all shut down or changed to indoor football. Quite sad actually.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
You're gonna get crucified by the PC bunch now!

Get ready for battle...

Of course, you are right, but for some reason those who preach "diversity" actually dislike diversity. They want everyone to be the same thing.
Click to expand...
Yep. No doubt I will be called racist for just saying the truth. And also the classic strawman argument "but but but your ancestors were immigrants!!!".
 
Jokervich said:
Yep. No doubt I will be called racist for just saying the truth. And also the classic strawman argument "but but but your ancestors were immigrants!!!".
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I'd much rather we discuss the state of German tennis, but clearly some people prefer to get political and start non-tennis arguments.

Because if you don't view the world as they do, you are automatically evil. It is indeed a very sad attitude. So much for "tolerance" and "diversity"...
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
In Germany football is by far the most popular sport and no other sports can really compete in the long run. There are only certain hypes from time to time if we have a great player (for instance when Nowitzki entered the NBA, basketball was at an all time high), but this quickly vanishes when said player disappears and no equally good successor follows.

Same happened in tennis: During the Graf/Becker/Stich era tennis was booming and thousands of parents let their kids play in the hope to get the next Boris. Once these big three retired, Haas and Kiefer were under immense pressure to follow their footsteps (German sport fans are very demanding with their sports stars and only accept winning) which they couldn’t achieve in the end. After Kiefer and Haas also got older, tennis quickly decreased in popularity, especially as this fell together with Nowitzki and the mentioned temporary basketball boom (from my tennis club during that time I knew three kids who left tennis for basketball, even though they were all pretty good). In my town where I live there were a lot of public tennis courts and indoor centers 20 years ago that are now all shut down or changed to indoor football. Quite sad actually.
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Germany was a football country before Becker and graf and after Becker and graf. I will have to find the article but check this out I read a couple months ago do you know what sport gets the second highest tv ratings in Germany? The NFL. I know I didn’t believe it and my wife was shocked but apparently it has a large following
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
In Germany football is by far the most popular sport and no other sports can really compete in the long run. There are only certain hypes from time to time if we have a great player (for instance when Nowitzki entered the NBA, basketball was at an all time high), but this quickly vanishes when said player disappears and no equally good successor follows.

Same happened in tennis: During the Graf/Becker/Stich era tennis was booming and thousands of parents let their kids play in the hope to get the next Boris. Once these big three retired, Haas and Kiefer were under immense pressure to follow their footsteps (German sport fans are very demanding with their sports stars and only accept winning) which they couldn’t achieve in the end. After Kiefer and Haas also got older, tennis quickly decreased in popularity, especially as this fell together with Nowitzki and the mentioned temporary basketball boom (from my tennis club during that time I knew three kids who left tennis for basketball, even though they were all pretty good). In my town where I live there were a lot of public tennis courts and indoor centers 20 years ago that are now all shut down or changed to indoor football. Quite sad actually.
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Finally a topic-related reply!

This is very interesting. I had no clue so many courts were shut down. But is this the case throughout Germany though?
 
insideguy said:
You made your own thread off topic by claiming zev isn’t German.
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No, your struggle with facts and other people's different - DIVERSE - views placed us off topic.

Supporting and actually SUPPORTING diversity are very different.

Because why discuss st when you can pick "fights"... right?
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Finally a topic-related reply!

This is very interesting. I had no clue so many courts were shut down. But is this the case throughout Germany though?
Click to expand...
Not sure about it as I only know how about my own town how it looked like 20 years ago. The three indoor centers I used to play as a kid or teenager got all replaced by other indoor sports or shut down entirely. The club I used to play in my early twenties also has far fewer memberships than 10-15 years ago. All in all tennis is far less popular than during Becker’s time, even though with Zverev it might have increased a little again.
 
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