What happened to German tennis? A devolution with no end. ATP thread.

Gumby said:
So then Agassi is Armenian, Sampras is Greek, Courier, McEnroe, Connors are Irish, Chang is Chinese, Hewitt is English, etc. Or does that only apply to non-Anglo speaking tennis countries?
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Diversity.

If you preach it, practice it.

Has nothing to do with Anglo-Saxons. Total non-sequitur.
 
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BeatlesFan said:
I'm an American who married an Austrian and who has lived in both Austria and Germany for years. But we're the anomaly and you have to admit the majority of Americans are stupid as hell about other countries. The only European country most Americans could name is England and that's utterly pathetic.
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This.

Americans need to educate themselves about Europe (not just the geography, but history, wars, culture and languages) before jumping to conclusions that are naive at best and laughable at worst.

America ≠ Europe. Not the same.

If you preach diversity, then practice it too. Learn about it, study it, don't oversimplify things just to make it easier for yourself.

"Zverev is German! I don't care what anyone says! There's a German flag next to his name!"

That's the lazy approach. Much easier to say this than to actually get informed.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Sinner and Federer are basically German, so it's not like Germans have had no talent. (Understatement.)

So why are there no top German talents playing for Germany?

Zverev is Russian... just to reiterate.

Russian.

He has a German passport but his parents came from Russia. He has a Russian first name and surname.
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I don't think of him as very german either but for a different reason. First, people can't just name off American players born to immigrant parents and argue that guys like Chang and Agassi are the same. The US and Europe see citizenship/nationality very differently. The US and it's people, for the most part, still see anyone with American citizenship as American. Europe puts a lot more weight into someone's "blood" and it's not like someone is automatically accepted as German if they have German citizenship. That's been my observation. I know Asians who've lived in Switzerland for generations who tell me they are still viewed as Asians living in Switzerland. Certainly, this is just anecdotal but citizenship laws in most of Europe reflect some of this sentiment. Most European countries don't grant citizenship simply because you are born in that country, as opposed to the US. And yes, I'm married to a European too.
But frankly, I don't view Zverev as German in good part because he plays a very traditional Russian tennis game. Most Russian men will stay at the baseline and can hit groundstrokes all day. It's pretty clear they've trained hours hitting groundstrokes with technically sound groundstrokes but there usually isn't much creativity or passion in their games. It's a job. Zverev has a bigger serve than most Russian men (who traditionally just throw a serve in and start hitting groundstrokes) but he doesn't really build his game around the serve. In fact, almost very Russian player I've watched seem to have pretty poor serves considering their height and dexterity. I'm thinking of Davydenko, Kafelnikov, khachanov, Rublev, etc. Safin and Medvedev have slightly more variety in their game but I wouldn't say they are fundamentally different than the traditional Russian baseline basher.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
"Zverev is German! I don't care what anyone says! There's a German flag next to his name!"

That's the lazy approach. Much easier to say this than to actually get informed.
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Zverev: Born in Germany, trained in Germany, speaks German, represents Germany, calls himself German

UnderratedSlam: He's not German and you are not informed
 
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TheRed said:
I don't think of him as very german either but for a different reason. First, people can't just name off American players born to immigrant parents and argue that guys like Chang and Agassi are the same. The US and Europe see citizenship/nationality very differently. The US and it's people, for the most part, still see anyone with American citizenship as American. Europe puts a lot more weight into someone's "blood" and it's not like someone is automatically accepted as German if they have German citizenship. That's been my observation. I know Asians who've lived in Switzerland for generations who tell me they are still viewed as Asians living in Switzerland. Certainly, this is just anecdotal but citizenship laws in most of Europe reflect some of this sentiment. Most European countries don't grant citizenship simply because you are born in that country, as opposed to the US. And yes, I'm married to a European too.
But frankly, I don't view Zverev as German in good part because he plays a very traditional Russian tennis game.
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Lot of ridiculous things in your post.

Getting a citizenship in the US doesn’t make racial biases go away. If so there would be no bias against blacks. A blond haired blue eyed European would fit perfectly here in situations where Asians born to families who have been here for generations won’t. So let’s not get carried away.

At the end of the day if someone has lived in a country forever and represents that country but you feel he is not a citizen, then you are telling me you are a bigot without explicitly telling me that.

Then to top of the ridiculousness you throw in the lack of creativity stereotype. If you want to hang on to stereotypes the irony is that Germans are stereotyped a lot as being too mechanical without much creativity.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Sinner and Federer are basically German, so it's not like Germans have had no talent. (Understatement.)

So why are there no top German talents playing for Germany?

Zverev is Russian... just to reiterate.

Russian.

He has a German passport but his parents came from Russia. He has a Russian first name and surname.
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Sinner is an Italian from Northern Italy (Südtirol), Federer is from Switzerland. Just because they speak German, does not mean they are German. Are Americans British? And how is this even relevant in terms of German tennis? They have nothing to do with the German tennis federation. And Zverev is German. He was raised in the German tennis system. German tennis has something to do with their tennis federation and academies – and not where a player's parents are from.
 
Tommy Haas carried the can for German Men's tennis and Kohlschreiber was always there for so long. Alex Zverev is now the torch bearer.

Stich and Boris Becker were the two Germans who won and looked like winning slams.

Perhaps German tennis has the same stigma British tennis does, that it's the sport for the posh, "well-to-do" upper classes. Football is usually the go to sport for Germans and Brits.
 
Jokervich said:
No he's Russian. German by citizenship only. There's also a bunch of British players who are from different countries - Konta (Hungary), Raducanu (Romanian/Chinese), Norrie (South African). And there's a bunch of Canadian players who are Eastern European or French - Shapovalov (Israeli I believe, maybe Russian), Raonic (Croatian), FAA (French).
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FFA is Canadian. Why would an English-speaking Canadian be more Canadian than a French-speaking one? Can you somehow explain that?
 
Arak said:
Well, he said he feels 100% German, and he feels no connection to Russia whatsoever. On the other hand, his parents are Russian, they speak Russian at home and he speaks it fluently. Could it be he’s more Russian than he cares to admit? I have no idea.
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Why does anyone care?
 
Gumby said:
Your thread is trash
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Now it is.

Thanks.

Reacting angrily to anyone whose opinions differ from yours... Where's the "diversity" in that? You want diversity but then again you don't.

You won't get very far with this attitude. Try understanding the opposing views instead of just getting upset over them.
 
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jm1980 said:
Zverev: Born in Germany, trained in Germany, speaks German, represents Germany, calls himself German

UnderratedSlam: He's not German and you are not informed
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Fake news "journalism".

Try again. This wasn't very good. At all.

Read the entire thread, read what other people wrote. Instead of being so angry over an opinion different from yours, get informed.

And then comment on why German tennis is in the dumps, why it's been much weaker since the 80s and 90s, on the men's side.
 
jm1980 said:
Which one of the statements above are "fake"?
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Fake news is cherry-picking facts, twisting words, spinning.

And all this just to force an agenda.

You very conveniently omitted that his parents are Russian, that he speaks fluent Russian (with his parents too), that his brother was born in Russia, that Russian tennis fans root for him, that European understanding of nationality and citizenship are very different from that of the US...

Any more questions?

Yes, fake news comment, that's what you did there. Pretty obvious.

If you choose to ignore the facts that bother you while only focusing on those that support your own agenda, then you're not seeking truth, you're doing the opposite. You need to work on that.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
You very conveniently omitted that his parents are Russian, that he speaks fluent Russian (with his parents too), that his brother was born in Russia, that Russian tennis fans root for him, that European understanding of nationality and citizenship are very different from that of the US...
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How is any of that more important than the facts I posted?
 
mcs1970 said:
Lot of ridiculous things in your post.

Getting a citizenship in the US doesn’t make racial biases go away. If so there would be no bias against blacks. A blond haired blue eyed European would fit perfectly here in situations where Asians born to families who have been here for generations won’t. So let’s not get carried away.

At the end of the day if someone has lived in a country forever and represents that country but you feel he is not a citizen, then you are telling me you are a bigot without explicitly telling me that.

Then to top of the ridiculousness you throw in the lack of creativity stereotype. If you want to hang on to stereotypes the irony is that Germans are stereotyped a lot as being too mechanical without much creativity.
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I think you're reading more about my comments than I'm saying. I never said the US isn't racist but more of a general sense of what constitutes nationality. The insider/outsider dynamic is pretty different in Europe and race doesn't factor in as heavily. Eastern Europeans have for a long time held a lower status in Europe but of course they're white. There is some racism but it's hard to say it's about skin color if a white slav isn't fully accepted into a country like Germany. At the end of the day, it's a fact that citizenship in Europe relies more on the concept of Jus Sanguine and less on Jus Solis.
I'm not relying on any stereotype of Russians. In fact, I don't know what the prevalent stereotypes of Russians are but the russian players I grew up watching did approach it with "it's a job attitude." Guys like Davydenko and Kafelnikov were well known for playing more tournaments than anyone else and admitted to doing so to get paid. How many Russian men's players can you think of with very dramatic games, who change pace well and have a real "flair" in their game? They are generally more workmanlike, which works well in its own way. I do think Danill Mededev has a pretty interesting game and is a good interview though.
 
jm1980 said:
How is any of that more important than the facts I posted?
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It's not a question of what's more or less important, it's a question of selecting facts that you like, while ignoring the ones that you dislike.

In a discussion about nationality/citizenship all the facts are relevant, both the ones you listed and the ones you omitted listing. Or do you prefer to always ignore everything that's inconvenient?

I can't help it if you don't understand European mentalities, the fact that the US as a colonized continent and melting pot almost since the early years is very different when compared to Europe with its extreme territoriality, very long history, and a multitude of languages and cultures, which had often clashed.

I mean, the fact that you need a TTW user to explain to you the most obvious basic differences between Europe and the US is pretty sad, right?

You can't possibly understand this thread until you are willing to learn st first.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
It's not a question of what's more or less important, it's a question of selecting facts that you like, while ignoring the ones that you dislike.

In a discussion about nationality/citizenship all the facts are relevant, both the ones you listed and the ones you omitted listing. Or do you prefer to always ignore everything that's inconvenient?

I can't help it if you don't understand European mentalities, the fact that the US as a colonized continent and melting pot almost since the early years is very different when compared to Europe with its extreme territoriality, very long history, and a multitude of languages and cultures, which had often clashed.

I mean, the fact that you need a TTW user to explain to you the most obvious basic differences between Europe and the US is pretty sad, right?
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Parents/brother born in Russia: completely irrelevant. My grandparents not being born in the US didn't make my parents any less American
Speaks Russian: Most first generation immigrants speak the native language of their parents
Russians root for him: Me (not a Serb) rooting for Djokovic doesn't make me more Serbian nor does it make Novak less Serbian

The thread is (purportedly) about German tennis, and Zverev is a product of German tennis
 
jm1980 said:
Parents/brother born in Russia: completely irrelevant. My grandparents not being born in the US didn't make me my parents any less American
Speaks Russian: Most first generation immigrants speak the native language of their parents
Russians root for him: Me (not a Serb) rooting for Djokovic doesn't make me more Serbian nor does it make Novak less Serbian

The thread is (purportedly) about German tennis, and Zverev is a product of German tennis
Click to expand...
Again, as long as you believe that Europe is ONE COUNTRY, like the States, or treat it as such, you will not only not understand this thread but you will be confused by so many other similar topics...

Your Djokovic fan analogy is silly, because Zverev has a huge number of Russian fans - and from no other country does he get that kind of support aside from Germany.

Makes you wonder, huh?

That Zverev's fan-base is predominantly German and Russian.

So are all those Russian fans crazy for claiming him as their own? Maybe it's just a wild coincidence...

Zverev is Russian and German, but in my opinion he is more Russian. And not just my opinion but that of many people. The fact you don't quite understand this opinion is your problem.
 
jm1980 said:
Parents/brother born in Russia: completely irrelevant. My grandparents not being born in the US didn't make my parents any less American
Speaks Russian: Most first generation immigrants speak the native language of their parents
Russians root for him: Me (not a Serb) rooting for Djokovic doesn't make me more Serbian nor does it make Novak less Serbian

The thread is (purportedly) about German tennis, and Zverev is a product of German tennis
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to argue here with you but you've said a few times that Zverev is a product of German Tennis. I'm ready to admit I'm wrong but it seems to me Zverev plays more a Russian style of tennis. I always thought most German tennis players were more aggressive positionally and tended to attack and come forward more, though not necessarily being net players. The russian players I watched growing up tended to prefer slugging it out from the baseline though I think Andrei Medvedev was a bit of an exception. What do you think?
 
Legal nationality is one thing.

Perceived ethnicity (by others) is a completely different thing.

It is also true that the way people perceive "others" as "not like us" (even if they have the same legal nationality) varies a lot from country to country...

The perceived differences range from physical aspects (looks), to culture, costumes, and language aspects ( pronunciation, vocabulary, slang...).

Some people had to live in different countries, when they were children, had to learn different languages in the first few years of their lives, and at the end some of them have neither a homeland nor a "native" language, and everywhere they go people notice that they are "not exactly like us".

It is a bit sad and unfortunate, people notice those little differences and behave (at first) a bit differently to them.

Zverev is legally German, but I don't know how German people perceive him ( I'm sure that German people would be very happy if Zverev wins Wimbledon, for example, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if some of them would be even happier if Wimbledon were won by "a more German" player).
 
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TheRed said:
I'm not trying to argue here with you but you've said a few times that Zverev is a product of German Tennis. I'm ready to admit I'm wrong but it seems to me Zverev plays more a Russian style of tennis. I always thought most German tennis players were more aggressive positionally and tended to attack and come forward more, though not necessarily being net players. The russian players I watched growing up tended to prefer slugging it out from the baseline though I think Andrei Medvedev was a bit of an exception. What do you think?
Click to expand...
I too am trying to engage people in a tennis discussion, but all that some people wanna do is argue about Zverev's nationality, and how "immoral" the European way of viewing these things is.

Btw, A Medvedev is Ukrainian. And he was a baseliner, most of his biggest successes were on clay.
 
TheRed said:
I think you're reading more about my comments than I'm saying. I never said the US isn't racist but more of a general sense of what constitutes nationality. The insider/outsider dynamic is pretty different in Europe and race doesn't factor in as heavily. Eastern Europeans have for a long time held a lower status in Europe but of course they're white. There is some racism but it's hard to say it's about skin color if a white slav isn't fully accepted into a country like Germany. At the end of the day, it's a fact that citizenship in Europe relies more on the concept of Jus Sanguine and less on Jus Solis.
I'm not relying on any stereotype of Russians. In fact, I don't know what the prevalent stereotypes of Russians are but the russian players I grew up watching did approach it with "it's a job attitude." Guys like Davydenko and Kafelnikov were well known for playing more tournaments than anyone else and admitted to doing so to get paid. How many Russian men's players can you think of with very dramatic games, who change pace well and have a real "flair" in their game? They are generally more workmanlike, which works well in its own way. I do think Danill Mededev has a pretty interesting game and is a good interview though.
Click to expand...

What I am trying to say is anyway you try to rationalize it away, it is bigotry at the end of the day.
 
mattennis said:
Legal nationality is one thing.

Perceived ethnicity (by others) is a completely different thing.

It is also true that the way people perceive "others" as "not like us" (even if they have the same legal nationality) varies a lot from country to country...

The perceived differences range from physical aspects (looks), to culture, costumes, and language aspects ( pronunciation, vocabulary, slang...).

Some people had to live in different countries, when they were children, had to learn different languages in the first few years of their lives, and at the end some of them have neither a homeland nor a "native" language, and everywhere they go people notice that they are "not exactly like us".

It is a bit sad and unfortunate, people notice those little differences and behave (at first) a bit differently to them.
Click to expand...
One user here made a very good analogy last year, when he said "what if Citybus got a Japanese passport and started playing Davis Cup for Japan? Would he be Japanese? Would Greeks be wrong to say he's Greek?"

That comment pretty much shut down all dissension.

Papers are one thing, (perceived) nationality is a far more complex subject, one too complex for people used to lumping everyone into one category (for example, "American").
 
mcs1970 said:
What I am trying to say is anyway you try to rationalize it away, it is bigotry at the end of the day.
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How is it bigotry?

When you make a serious (and in this case utterly silly) accusation you need to support it with serious facts. Screaming "racist!" proves nothing but your own inability to construct a logical argument.

What's this thread got to do with racism? Nothing. We are discussing German tennis, and also Zverev's nationality because some people want it to be simply and easy. Nobody is attacking either Germans nor Russians here. Not one person said anything negative about either. (At least I hope not.)

So where's the racism?

Nowhere. You made it up... because...?
 
UnderratedSlam said:
How is it bigotry?

When you make a serious (and in this case utterly silly) accusation you need to support it with serious facts. Screaming "racist!" proves nothing but your own inability to construct a logical argument.

What's this thread got to do with racism? Nothing. We are discussing German tennis, and also Zverev's nationality because some people want it to be simply and easy. Nobody is attacking either Germans nor Russians here. Not one person said anything negative about either. (At least I hope not.)

So where's the racism?

Nowhere. You made it up... because...?
Click to expand...

I am not wasting my time trying to explain bigotry to a bigot.
 
insideguy said:
Zevrev is German. He was born in Germany and plays under the German flag. There are a lot of people obsessed with names and dna on this board. He didn’t train in Russia he trained in Germany. He is German. As an American I cannot for the life of me understand peoples obsession with this crap.
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And won Gold for Germany
 
mattennis said:
Legal nationality is one thing.

Perceived ethnicity (by others) is a completely different thing.

It is also true that the way people perceive "others" as "not like us" (even if they have the same legal nationality) varies a lot from country to country...

The perceived differences range from physical aspects (looks), to culture, costumes, and language aspects ( pronunciation, vocabulary, slang...).

Some people had to live in different countries, when they were children, had to learn different languages in the first few years of their lives, and at the end some of them have neither a homeland nor a "native" language, and everywhere they go people notice that they are "not exactly like us".

It is a bit sad and unfortunate, people notice those little differences and behave (at first) a bit differently to them.

Zverev is legally German, but I don't know how German people perceive him ( I'm sure that German people would be very happy if Zverev wins Wimbledon, for example, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if some of them would be even happier if Wimbledon were won by "a more German" player).
Click to expand...
I think Russians will be happy if Zverev wins Wimbledon.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
How is it bigotry?

When you make a serious (and in this case utterly silly) accusation you need to support it with serious facts. Screaming "racist!" proves nothing but your own inability to construct a logical argument.

What's this thread got to do with racism? Nothing. We are discussing German tennis, and also Zverev's nationality because some people want it to be simply and easy. Nobody is attacking either Germans nor Russians here. Not one person said anything negative about either. (At least I hope not.)

So where's the racism?

Nowhere. You made it up... because...?
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Yeah, I wonder if mcs1970 is American. I wonder how much he/she's been exposed to europeans. I'm just pointing out what mattennis said better than me. Europeans see nationality a bit different than americans
 
mcs1970 said:
You are a bigot. Maybe you don’t realize it but it’s ok. As I said I am not interested in wasting my time.
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Do you always end every argument that you lose by calling the other person a bigot?

"I have no more arguments, I've been out-classed, out-argued, out-gunned. I'd better use the Racism Card again..."

Laughable.

That is the equivalent of that pigeon analogy, a pigeon smashing the chess board after he realizes he can't win...
 
UnderratedSlam said:
I too am trying to engage people in a tennis discussion, but all that some people wanna do is argue about Zverev's nationality, and how "immoral" the European way of viewing these things is.

Btw, A Medvedev is Ukrainian. And he was a baseliner, most of his biggest successes were on clay.
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didn't realize A Med was Ukranian. I just think his game was a bit more interesting
 
mattennis said:
Legal nationality is one thing.

Perceived ethnicity (by others) is a completely different thing.

It is also true that the way people perceive "others" as "not like us" (even if they have the same legal nationality) varies a lot from country to country...

The perceived differences range from physical aspects (looks), to culture, costumes, and language aspects ( pronunciation, vocabulary, slang...).

Some people had to live in different countries, when they were children, had to learn different languages in the first few years of their lives, and at the end some of them have neither a homeland nor a "native" language, and everywhere they go people notice that they are "not exactly like us".

It is a bit sad and unfortunate, people notice those little differences and behave (at first) a bit differently to them.

Zverev is legally German, but I don't know how German people perceive him ( I'm sure that German people would be very happy if Zverev wins Wimbledon, for example, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if some of them would be even happier if Wimbledon were won by "a more German" player).
Click to expand...
Sure just like there were many Americans who liked Chris Everett winning slams more than Serena Williams. That didn’t make Serena Williams not American. That’s just means many Americans are racist.
 
insideguy said:
Sure just like there were many Americans who liked Chris Everett winning slams more than Serena Williams. That didn’t make Serena Williams not American. That’s just means many Americans are racist.
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Or perhaps they liked Evert more because she is a nicer person?

This never occurred to you as a possibility...?

I mean, I personally don't think Evert is worth rooting for at all... She is awful... I used to root for Serena in her younger years. So is that proof I'm not racist?

"Whoever roots for Serena = not racist.

Whoever roots for Evert but not Serena = racist."

You gonna go with this "logic", or? It's that simple, huh?
 
UnderratedSlam said:
One user here made a very good analogy last year, when he said "what if Citybus got a Japanese passport and started playing Davis Cup for Japan? Would he be Japanese? Would Greeks be wrong to say he's Greek?"

That comment pretty much shut down all dissension.
Click to expand...
Was Tsitsipas born in Japan? Did he train in Japan? Does he speak Japanese? Does he identify himself as Japanese?

This would be a completely different scenario
 
jm1980 said:
Was Tsitsipas born in Japan? Did he train in Japan? Does he speak Japanese? Does he identify himself as Japanese?

This would be completely different scenario
Click to expand...
Yes, it would be different, but to people who use only papers as basis (several people on that thread) for these things it would have been the exact same.

But hey, we're making headway here, you are starting to analyze this subject, making it less simplistic than before, so that's good.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Again, as long as you believe that Europe is ONE COUNTRY, like the States, or treat it as such, you will not only not understand this thread but you will be confused by so many other similar topics...

[...]

Zverev is Russian and German, but in my opinion he is more Russian. And not just my opinion but that of many people. The fact you don't quite understand this opinion is your problem.
Click to expand...
Where did I say anything that would indicate I believe Europe is one country? Stop putting words in people's mouths

It doesn't surprise me at all that "many" people see him as more Russian, but not only are you in the minority in this thread; you also are choosing to either ignore those who disagree with you, or attack them and claim they are "angry" or "fake news". Which is just par for the course for people who think this way.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Now it is.

Thanks.

Reacting angrily to anyone whose opinions differ from yours... Where's the "diversity" in that? You want diversity but then again you don't.

You won't get very far with this attitude. Try understanding the opposing views instead of just getting upset over them.
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The moment you said Zverev isn't a "real" German your thread should've been deleted
 
jm1980 said:
It doesn't surprise me at all that "many" people see him as more Russian, but not only are you in the minority in this thread; you also are choosing to either ignore those who disagree with you, or attack them and claim they are "angry" or "fake news". Which is just par for the course for people who think this way.
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You trying to project their irrational, angry behaviour onto me... Nah, not gonna work.
 
Gumby said:
The moment you said Zverev isn't a "real" German your thread should've been deleted
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Of course, that's your solution to every thread that disagrees with you.

"Please DELETE. I hate this opinion." So child-like.

If you actually read what some people wrote here you could learn st, but then again, you seem to already know everything...
 
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