What happened to German tennis? A devolution with no end. ATP thread.

jm1980 said:
Repeatedly claiming others are "angry" doesn't make that true no matter how many times you do it
Click to expand...
Angry users repeatedly claiming others are "racist" doesn't make that true here no matter how many times they do it.

Or do you find that behaviour acceptable, just because they agree with you on this particular subject?

Trying being a little more objective... It's not that hard.
 
LeungD said:
This is not a tennis discussion. And you're definitely a racist, I got 9 pages of your posts to prove it
Click to expand...
There's no racist like a latent racist who seeks out to blame non-racists for racism.

And if that's too confusing I will try to simplify it for you...
 
Last edited:
LeungD said:
Stop trying to rationalize your racism. Disgusting.
Click to expand...
If it's disgusting then why do it?

Kind of hypocritical.

Still no tennis opinions from you, ey?

You just came here to argue. About me.

LeungD said:
This is not a tennis discussion. And you're definitely a racist, I got 9 pages of your posts to prove it
Click to expand...
This post proves my point about you, that you're here because of me. You joined TTW because...

Why did you join?
LeungD said:
Don't recall any interactions with you.
Click to expand...
You posted this reply to me a few days ago on a different thread. (Naturally, one of my threads, because you never seem to get enough of my wisdom.)

You said you don't recall talking to me, yet you claim to have 9 pages of my posts stashed somewhere.

So which is it?

Were you lying then, or are you lying now?
 
Last edited:
UnderratedSlam said:
Discussing men's tennis only.

German tennis was nowhere before Graf and Becker. The two appeared "out of nowhere", at pretty much the same time, so clearly the German federation, DTB, was doing st right in the years before that.

Then they had Stich. It was a step down (one slam), but still a big name in the 90s. (Admittedly, Stich was basically from the Becker/Graf generation, just a little younger.)

Then Haas and Kiefer, a decade younger. Both with potential, both were expected to do big things, but both underachieved for different reasons. (Haas wasn't very clutch, plus injuries. Kiefer was a bit lazy, non-clutch and distracted by other things.)

Then Kohlschreiber. Great shot-making abilities, often clutch, played very well vs top players, but somehow underachieved totally.

Then Struff. A glorified Goellner. Serve-bash, forehand-bash player, very one-dimensional, an "average" top 100 player.

Then... what? Otte? He's not bad at all but don't expect anything stellar from him.

A wealthy country of 80 million, with several slam champs, just can't get it together. At BMW Open the final was contested by Germany's small neighbours, Holland and Denmark. Rune and Zandbot. Very ironic.

Women's tennis in Germany is doing fine. But men's tennis in Germany is nowhere. Why?

Zverev is Russian...

Any Germans here who know more?
Click to expand...

In what way is Struff a “glorified” Goellner? I think them about equal.

Good post though.
 
helterskelter said:
In what way is Struff a “glorified” Goellner? I think them about equal.

Good post though.
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to say he's better than Goellner, certainly he wasn't more successful.

He hasn't even won an event yet. Goellner won two if I'm not mistaken.

Struff has more power, but that's about it. Both are/were very much serve-and-FH bashers.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Angry users repeatedly claiming others are "racist" doesn't make that true here no matter how many times they do it.

Or do you find that behaviour acceptable, just because they agree with you on this particular subject?

Trying being a little more objective... It's not that hard.
Click to expand...
If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Racists often point to someone's ancestry (or how they look, which is a result of their ancestry) to say something like: "You don't belong with us. It doesn't matter if you were born here, live here, speak our language. You are not one of us"

There's an easy way to not be called a racist, and that is stop espousing racist viewpoints
 
jm1980 said:
If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Racists often point to someone's ancestry (or how they look, which is a result of their ancestry) to say something like: "You don't belong with us. It doesn't matter if you were born here, live here, speak our language. You are not one of us"

There's an easy way to not be called a racist, and that is stop espousing racist viewpoints
Click to expand...

100%
 
jm1980 said:
If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Racists often point to someone's ancestry (or how they look, which is a result of their ancestry) to say something like: "You don't belong with us. It doesn't matter if you were born here, live here, speak our language. You are not one of us"

There's an easy way to not be called a racist, and that is stop espousing racist viewpoints
Click to expand...
You understand racism like you understand ducks.

That is to say zero.
 
LeungD said:
It doesn't matter: Goellner was born in Brazil so according to OP he's not a real German.
Click to expand...
"It doesn't matter what OP says: I will always claim the opposite, because obsession, it is real."

I am glad this obsession is helping you Google players, their place of birth, their age, their results.

You're improving.
 
helterskelter said:
Goellner at least trademarked the backwards baseball cap!
Click to expand...
Goellner was expected big things when he first showed up, around 1993, I believe. But he couldn't handle the pressure. He suffered some bad defeats, then just petered out.

Of course, it wasn't realistic to expect so much from him, but the German media were quite adamant in getting that next big prospect, they weren't being objective.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Sinner and Federer are basically German, so it's not like Germans have had no talent. (Understatement.)

So why are there no top German talents playing for Germany?

Zverev is Russian... just to reiterate.

Russian.

He has a German passport but his parents came from Russia. He has a Russian first name and surname.
Click to expand...
But his tennis development was in Germany and he was born in Germany. If we followed the logic that we only regard someone as being of a country based on their parents birthplace, then the USA wouldn't have had Agassi, Chang or Sampras.
 
I see posts alluding to Irish heritage, my father was Irish, my mother is Italian/Slovenian but I was born in Britain and my loyalties lie with Britain.

Zverev was born in Germany and he has Russian ancestry, he could have played for Russia but he plays for the country he was born in.

Remember in football the Boateng brothers? Both born in Germany, Jerome played for Germany, Kevin Prince played for Ghana as they have Ghanaian ancestry.

Ancestry and Nationality aren't really linked, the Romans occupied Britain, the Romans born in Britain during the occupation were British of Roman ancestry.
 
Zardoz7/12 said:
I see posts alluding to Irish heritage, my father was Irish, my mother is Italian/Slovenian but I was born in Britain and my loyalties lie with Britain.

Zverev was born in Germany and he has Russian ancestry, he could have played for Russia but he plays for the country he was born in.

Remember in football the Boateng brothers? Both born in Germany, Jerome played for Germany, Kevin Prince played for Ghana as they have Ghanaian ancestry.

Ancestry and Nationality aren't really linked, the Romans occupied Britain, the Romans born in Britain during the occupation were British of Roman ancestry.
Click to expand...
Good lord your right Tim Henman was probably a Roman. He should have probably played for Italy. Not a True Brit.
 
timnz said:
But his tennis development was in Germany and he was born in Germany. If we followed the logic that we only regard someone as being of a country based on their parents birthplace, then the USA wouldn't have had Agassi, Chang or Sampras.
Click to expand...
We can't follow the same logic because America and Europe are two completely different entities in terms of culture, language, history...

For example, there is no such thing as a "typical American" in terms of appearance, because it's a melting pot and the only "true" Americans are native Indians, yet there are definitely typical Swedes, typical Balkans, typical Italians... Just a completely different demographic break-up, mentality... We can pretend everything is the same everywhere, but it simply isn't. It's no coincidence that Americans and Europeans on this thread often disagree.

Doesn't mean one is right the other wrong.
 
Last edited:
UnderratedSlam said:
For example, there is no such thing as a "typical American" in terms of appearance, because it's a melting pot and the only "true" Americans are native Indians, yet there are definitely typical Swedes, typical Balkans, typical Italians...
Click to expand...
Actually in larger countries there are fairly distinct groups e.g. from the south of the country vs. the north. For example in Italy, France people from the north look more 'Nordic', while those from the south look more 'Mediterranean'.
 
nam416 said:
Actually in larger countries there are fairly distinct groups e.g. from the south of the country vs. the north. For example in Italy, France people from the north look more 'Nordic', while those from the south look more 'Mediterranean'.
Click to expand...
In the examples given here, France and Italy, people from the north and south actually do not like each other.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
We can't follow the same logic because America and Europe are two completely different entities in terms of culture, language, history...

For example, there is no such thing as a "typical American" in terms of appearance, because it's a melting pot and the only "true" Americans are native Indians, yet there are definitely typical Swedes, typical Balkans, typical Italians... Just a completely different demographic break-up, mentality... We can pretend everything is the same everywhere, but it simply isn't. It's no coincidence that Americans and Europeans on this thread often disagree.

Doesn't mean one is right the other wrong.
Click to expand...
I understand the differing perspectives…but I don’t think that many would regard Sampras as a Greek player or Agassi an Iranian player - regardless of whether you ask someone from Europe or America. So why do some think of Zverev as a Russian player?
 
How is Zverev not German? He was born and raised in Germany. speaks German as his first language, represents Germany, and identifies as German. He's only Russian because of his parents.

By that logic, Federer is German/South African (not Swiss), Thiem is German (not Austrian), Sampras is Greek (not American), Agassi is Armenian (not American), Chang is Taiwanese (not American), etc.
 
Entername said:
How is Zverev not German? He was born and raised in Germany. speaks German as his first language, represents Germany, and identifies as German. He's only Russian because of his parents.

By that logic, Federer is German/South African (not Swiss), Thiem is German (not Austrian), Sampras is Greek (not American), Agassi is Armenian (not American), Chang is Taiwanese (not American), etc.
Click to expand...

He's a German citizen of Russian descent.

Are you saying that Asians and Asian-Americans, for example, treated Chang the exact same as McEnroe or Courier?
 
Entername said:
How is Zverev not German? He was born and raised in Germany. speaks German as his first language, represents Germany, and identifies as German. He's only Russian because of his parents.

By that logic, Federer is German/South African (not Swiss), Thiem is German (not Austrian), Sampras is Greek (not American), Agassi is Armenian (not American), Chang is Taiwanese (not American), etc.
Click to expand...

Federer's father is Swiss so ethnically he's half-Swiss, half-South African.
 
Entername said:
How is Zverev not German? He was born and raised in Germany. speaks German as his first language, represents Germany, and identifies as German. He's only Russian because of his parents.

By that logic, Federer is German/South African (not Swiss), Thiem is German (not Austrian), Sampras is Greek (not American), Agassi is Armenian (not American), Chang is Taiwanese (not American), etc.
Click to expand...
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.
 
timnz said:
I understand the differing perspectives…but I don’t think that many would regard Sampras as a Greek player or Agassi an Iranian player - regardless of whether you ask someone from Europe or America. So why do some think of Zverev as a Russian player?
Click to expand...

Sure, but you wouldn't expect, for example, people from Greece to treat Sampras the same as every other American player, right? Likewise, people of Greek ancestry in the US might get a little more excited to see Sampras win than other American players. Nothing wrong with any of that.

Zverev is properly a German CITIZEN, with all the rights and benefits attached thereto. He isn't "German", which implies ethnicity given that German is an ethnic group.

If I move to Spain and become a citizen and learn the Spanish language, I wouldn't call myself SPANISH.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Discussing men's tennis only.

German tennis was nowhere before Graf and Becker. The two appeared "out of nowhere", at pretty much the same time, so clearly the German federation, DTB, was doing st right in the years before that.

Then they had Stich. It was a step down (one slam), but still a big name in the 90s. (Admittedly, Stich was basically from the Becker/Graf generation, just a little younger.)

Then Haas and Kiefer, a decade younger. Both with potential, both were expected to do big things, but both underachieved for different reasons. (Haas wasn't very clutch, plus injuries. Kiefer was a bit lazy, non-clutch and distracted by other things.)

Then Kohlschreiber. Great shot-making abilities, often clutch, played very well vs top players, but somehow underachieved totally.

Then Struff. A glorified Goellner. Serve-bash, forehand-bash player, very one-dimensional, an "average" top 100 player.

Then... what? Otte? He's not bad at all but don't expect anything stellar from him.

A wealthy country of 80 million, with several slam champs, just can't get it together. At BMW Open the final was contested by Germany's small neighbours, Holland and Denmark. Rune and Zandbot. Very ironic.

Women's tennis in Germany is doing fine. But men's tennis in Germany is nowhere. Why?

Zverev is Russian...

Any Germans here who know more?
Click to expand...
Zverev was born in Germany. Zverev is the product of German tennis. He didn't switch nationality to play tennis.
 
HelenCH said:
Zverev was born in Germany. Zverev is the product of German tennis. He didn't switch nationality to play tennis.
Click to expand...
He is German, yes. And a product of German tennis.

But he is also Russian.

And because part of his tennis upbringing stems from his Russian-born brother, so...

To me he is more Russian, to you he is more German. Nobody is "right". This isn't maths.
 
FrontHeadlock said:
Sure, but you wouldn't expect, for example, people from Greece to treat Sampras the same as every other American player, right? Likewise, people of Greek ancestry in the US might get a little more excited to see Sampras win than other American players. Nothing wrong with any of that.

Zverev is properly a German CITIZEN, with all the rights and benefits attached thereto. He isn't "German", which implies ethnicity given that German is an ethnic group.

If I move to Spain and become a citizen and learn the Spanish language, I wouldn't call myself SPANISH.
Click to expand...
Brilliant post. You are speaking facts and truth.
 
Who actually gives a crap where you were born or you´re parents or whatever ...

As a german, i can confirm that Tennis in germany is a little bit on the decline ... after Becker & Graf, every village in germany build it´s own Courts, and there was really a run towards Tennis ... but unfortunately, the popularity has gone ... Tennis is still played a lot, but today it´s more of an sport for older people, any many Clubs have massive problems with fading members and members getting too old ... but i think we had and have a lot of good players ... actually a lot more then the US looking at the last 20 Years .. ;-) ... but no Player, Male or Female, has reached such stardom as Becker & Graf. So we have to wait .. ;-)
 
UnderratedSlam said:
According to some posters, all American Greeks rooting for Sampras and Kyrgios are racists.

I mean, I can't believe we're even discussing this... Has the world gone bonkers?
Click to expand...

This is from the Michael Chang Wikipedia page:

>> Chang subsequently defeated Ronald Agénor in the quarter-final and Andrei Chesnokov in the semi-final. Then seven days after his match against Lendl, after beating Stefan Edberg in five sets, Chang went on to lift the Coupe des Mousquetaires, becoming the youngest men's champion in Grand Slam history.[17][18] Chang's match against Lendl was played on June 5, 1989, just one day after the height of the Tiananmen Square Massacre. Chang has frequently noted the impact of the massacre when recalling his French Open victory:

A lot of people forget that Tiananmen Square was going on. The crackdown that happened was on the middle Sunday at the French Open, so if I was not practicing or playing a match, I was glued to the television, watching the events unfold...I often tell people I think it was God's purpose for me to be able to win the French Open the way it was won because I was able to put a smile on Chinese people's faces around the world at a time when there wasn't much to smile about.[19] <<

Remember, Chang was born in America, spoke English, lived in America all his life, etc. Are people suggesting that he would have said the same thing had he been any other ethnicity?
 
Wooly said:
Who actually gives a crap where you were born or you´re parents or whatever ...

As a german, i can confirm that Tennis in germany is a little bit on the decline ... after Becker & Graf, every village in germany build it´s own Courts, and there was really a run towards Tennis ... but unfortunately, the popularity has gone ... Tennis is still played a lot, but today it´s more of an sport for older people, any many Clubs have massive problems with fading members and members getting too old ... but i think we had and have a lot of good players ... actually a lot more then the US looking at the last 20 Years .. ;-) ... but no Player, Male or Female, has reached such stardom as Becker & Graf. So we have to wait .. ;-)
Click to expand...
But in a population of 80 million, surely there should be a great junior coming up ever few years, oder?

It's a rich country, plus has a very solid history of champs, I simply am amazed that Germans haven't had a male slam winner in 26 years.

Women doing well though...
 
FrontHeadlock said:
Sure, but you wouldn't expect, for example, people from Greece to treat Sampras the same as every other American player, right? Likewise, people of Greek ancestry in the US might get a little more excited to see Sampras win than other American players. Nothing wrong with any of that.

Zverev is properly a German CITIZEN, with all the rights and benefits attached thereto. He isn't "German", which implies ethnicity given that German is an ethnic group.

If I move to Spain and become a citizen and learn the Spanish language, I wouldn't call myself SPANISH.
Click to expand...
He was born in Germany of RussIan Ethnicity, Sampras was born in the US of Greek ethnicity. There situations seem identically equivalent.
 
UnderratedSlam said:
Sinner and Federer are basically German, so it's not like Germans have had no talent. (Understatement.)

So why are there no top German talents playing for Germany?

Zverev is Russian... just to reiterate.

Russian.

He has a German passport but his parents came from Russia. He has a Russian first name and surname.
Click to expand...
How many generations have to be born in a country so a player can be considered from that country even if he was born there?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

soft_manatee
What happened to South African tennis? A devolution with no end.
Replies
16
Views
415
Backspin1183
Backspin1183
BGod
Lack of German & Canadian Tennis Greats? (Men)
Replies
33
Views
1K
Deleted member 307496
D
H
Why is Germany so bad at Tennis?
3 4 5
Replies
236
Views
5K
BorgTheGOAT
BorgTheGOAT
K
Tennis' popularity in Germany
Replies
11
Views
3K
booster75
B
Break To Win
What actually happens in Women's Tennis in Germany?
Replies
0
Views
340
Break To Win
Break To Win
Back
Top