What hurts Federer more?

What hurts Federer more?

  • 0-5 against Nadal at French Open

    Votes: 45 61.6%

  • 0-2 Djokovic in Wimbledon finals

    Votes: 28 38.4%
  • Total voters
    73
P

pmh1983

New User
A) 0-5 against Nadal at French Open (0-4 in finals)?

B) 0-2 against Djokovic in Wimbledon finals?

As a Federer fan, I wish neither of these were hanging over him. If Nadal had made the FO final in 2009 and/or had Fed converted his break point in the 5th set of the 2014 Wimbo final this possibly wouldn't even be a discussion. However for me going 0-2 against Djokovic in finals in his own backyard hurts him more than 0-5 (0-4 in finals) against Nadal at the French Open. Federer IS Wimbledon and losing finals 2 straight years to Djokovic was a real kick in the teeth for me, so thats my vote.

Discuss.
 
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Djokovic is comfortably the player of Wimbledon in this decade, no shame in losing to him. Considering Fed was no longer as amazing as before and since Novak was in fantastic form, Fed did well to extend both finals as long as he did.

Nadal at the French Open obviously doesn't need any more introduction...
 
TheAssassin said:
Djokovic is comfortably the player of Wimbledon in this decade, no shame in losing to him. Considering Fed was no longer as amazing as before and since Novak was in fantastic form, Fed did well to extend both finals as long as he did.

Nadal at the French Open obviously doesn't need any more introduction...
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Good observation; I still stand by my choice but solid argument.
 
After 2005 FO SF i think he was always the underdog against Nadal at RG. Losing to the greatest clay courter ever there was very much expected.

Losing to Djokovic on your favorite court, and favorite surface, after all the talk about being the undisputed grass court Goat, and coming as a big favorite in those two Wimbledon finals, while playing some of your best grass tennis in your career, only to get owned by a guy who was thought to be not the most natural grass courter out there, or the weakest grass court player of the big 4, was really eye opening to say it politely. A legacy tarnish, level indefinitely tbh.
 
pmh1983 said:
What do you think would have happened and why?
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Impossible to predict what if scenarios. But certainly Nadal would have been the overwhelming favourite. 34 match winning streak at RG, defeated Federer in the 3 most recent GS meetings - on all three surfaces (2008 RG, Wimby, 2009 AO).
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
I think nadal losses...
Fed should have really won one of 2005/06/07 and he had no business to lose 2011(sick mentalerer, vanished after that missed dropshot at 5-2 set point)
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Too much gets made out of that 2011 first set drop shot...

Federer was not winning that match. Federer had enough in him to fight hard for three sets only, he was completely exhausted by the time the fourth set started, and he had the momentum heading into that fourth set. And there is no way Federer straight sets Nadal at RG, Nadal would have won at worst one of those first three sets and then grinded Federer down in the final two. Federer was done after he won that third set...he was not winning RG 2011.
 
Nadal on clay has been the bane of Fed's existence career wise. He was completely smug about winning it when he did, trying to play it off as something inferior to other surfaces. But Fed and everyone else knows, he has not beaten his rival on their premiere surface for a GS title yet.

Fed owns Wimby so a few loses aren't much of a statement.

That said, I think Nadal will no win the FO this year.
 
pmh1983 said:
A) 0-5 against Nadal at French Open (0-4 in finals)?

B) 0-2 against Djokovic in Wimbledon finals?

As a Federer fan, I wish neither of these were hanging over him. If Nadal had made the FO final in 2009 and/or had Fed converted his break point in the 5th set of the 2014 Wimbo final this possibly wouldn't even be a discussion. However for me going 0-2 against Djokovic in finals in his own backyard hurts him more than 0-5 (0-4 in finals) against Nadal at the French Open. Federer IS Wimbledon and losing finals 2 straight years to Djokovic was a real kick in the teeth for me, so thats my vote.

Discuss.
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Losing to Novak in two Wimbledon finals, his best slam, has to really irk Roger. Sure, losing 5 FO finals to Rafa hurts, but the French is his worst slam and he seems to like Rafa.
 
ChaelAZ said:
Nadal on clay has been the bane of Fed's existence career wise. He was completely smug about winning it when he did, trying to play it off as something inferior to other surfaces. But Fed and everyone else knows, he has not beaten his rival on their premiere surface for a GS title yet.

Fed owns Wimby so a few loses aren't much of a statement.

That said, I think Nadal will no win the FO this year.
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That is why Federer got so emotional when he won the title? He fully acknowledged the importance of winning on all surfaces, if he felt it was inferior, he wouldn't have fought his way to numerous clay finals everywhere. The fact Nadal is the greater of the two on the surface, doesn't mean Federer played it down as some inferior surface...he has said he grew up on clay, and he enjoys playing on it, it just happens to be his worst surface, and he was hell bent on conquering it no matter how times Nadal kept stopping him, he kept coming back.
 
ChaelAZ said:
Nadal on clay has been the bane of Fed's existence career wise. He was completely smug about winning it when he did, trying to play it off as something inferior to other surfaces. But Fed and everyone else knows, he has not beaten his rival on their premiere surface for a GS title yet.

Fed owns Wimby so a few loses aren't much of a statement.

That said, I think Nadal will no win the FO this year.
Click to expand...

He already did.
 
pmh1983 said:
A) 0-5 against Nadal at French Open (0-4 in finals)?

B) 0-2 against Djokovic in Wimbledon finals?

As a Federer fan, I wish neither of these were hanging over him. If Nadal had made the FO final in 2009 and/or had Fed converted his break point in the 5th set of the 2014 Wimbo final this possibly wouldn't even be a discussion. However for me going 0-2 against Djokovic in finals in his own backyard hurts him more than 0-5 (0-4 in finals) against Nadal at the French Open. Federer IS Wimbledon and losing finals 2 straight years to Djokovic was a real kick in the teeth for me, so thats my vote.

Discuss.
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That’s easy. And it surprises me a lot why 0-5 at RG against Nadal doesn’t get unanimous voting.
 
ChaelAZ said:
He was completely smug about winning it
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He's always said it was one of his greatest victories- along with AO17. Might have been tempting to play it down as an inferior surface when it looked like he might never win it but he didn't do that. He told Neil Harman (UK journalist) that he "needed" to win it and Harman thought he was putting too much pressure on himself.

He puts W 03 as his favourite victory which is fair enough but FO 09 and AO 17 seem to be joint second.
 
If we talk about regret, I believe that Federer regrets very much for not cleaning field prior to 2007 and appearance of Nadal/Djokovic/Murray. He has done a lot, but, in hindsight, he probably wonders "why didn't I have 3 consecutive CGS years"? Based on competition, he could had 5-10 GS more than he had. Everything after 2007 and particularly 2011 was not in his total control and he has done as much as he could. He seems to consider a number of GS to be his main legacy and he knows that Nadal is getting over 20 and that this target could have been 25 (at the moment). At the time he thought that he was very successful, but now he probably thinks that he could have done better.
 
ABCD said:
If we talk about regret, I believe that Federer regrets very much for not cleaning field prior to 2007 and appearance of Nadal/Djokovic/Murray. He has done a lot, but, in hindsight, he probably wonders "why didn't I have 3 consecutive CGS years"? Based on competition, he could had 5-10 GS more than he had. Everything after 2007 and particularly 2011 was not in his total control and he has done as much as he could. He seems to consider a number of GS to be his main legacy and he knows that Nadal is getting over 20 and that this target could have been 25 (at the moment). At the time he thought that he was very successful, but now he probably thinks that he could have done better.
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2004 - may have looked like a lost opportunity on clay, but clay was, is and forever will be his worst surface and the one he is most vulnerable on. That year alone, two past their primes former RG champions beat him on the dirt. He was a contender for sure, but by no means a lock, Coria was playing well, so was Nalbandian, Moya, Gaudio.
2005-2006 - Nadal was the well established King of Clay and was in the midst of his 81 match winning streak, he was at his fastest during those years and was a wall, the type of player that gives Federer issues.

I cannot see them as massive lost opportunities.

As for Nadal getting over 20, that we just need to wait and see. Nadal has made zero progress on Federer since RG 2014. Four seasons have past and he is still three slams behind, time is not on Nadal's side either. This year was a massive blow to Nadal, it should have been a multi slam year, yet again he got reduced to just RG. And if he loses RG, then that could be it, and if Federer wins one more, the task becomes that much harder.

And finally, Djokovic has come back to life, he could change everything if he enters into another period of dominance, especially if he wins the next slam. Nadal will not be thinking about number one then, he will thinking his number two position is under threat.
 
Hitman said:
2004 - may have looked like a lost opportunity on clay, but clay was, is and forever will be his worst surface and the one he is most vulnerable on. That year alone, two past their primes former RG champions beat him on the dirt. He was a contender for sure, but by no means a lock, Coria was playing well, so was Nalbandian, Moya, Gaudio.
2005-2006 - Nadal was the well established King of Clay and was in the midst of his 81 match winning streak, he was at his fastest during those years and was a wall, the type of player that gives Federer issues.

I cannot see them as massive lost opportunities.

As for Nadal getting over 20, that we just need to wait and see. Nadal has made zero progress on Federer since RG 2014. Four seasons have past and he is still three slams behind, time is not on Nadal's side either. This year was a massive blow to Nadal, it should have been a multi slam year, yet again he got reduced to just RG. And if he loses RG, then that could be it, and if Federer wins one more, the task becomes that much harder.

And finally, Djokovic has come back to life, he could change everything if he enters into another period of dominance, especially if he wins the next slam. Nadal will not be thinking about number one then, he will thinking his number two position is under threat.
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I believe that Nadal will do anything possible to get to 20. I also think that Federer has to win more if he wants to have more GS than Nadal when everything is done and dusted. Regarding Djokovic, everything depends on Jelena. If she supports him he can overtake both Nadal and Federer in GS counts.
 
Well considering that Federer's record against Nadal at majors is often used against him in GOAT “debates” than I’d have to say that.
 
ABCD said:
I believe that Nadal will do anything possible to get to 20. I also think that Federer has to win more if he wants to have more GS than Nadal when everything is done and dusted. Regarding Djokovic, everything depends on Jelena. If she supports him he can overtake both Nadal and Federer in GS counts.
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Everything possible though doesn't mean the impossible. Nadal got stopped by Djokovic who wasn't even playing anywhere close to his best at W. Then at USO, despite so many here uber confident in him, especially after he won Toronto, he struggled at almost every round and Thiem pretty much killed him. His body is getting older, injuries are coming more and more frequently. He didn't even play the first three months, barring a few matches in AO, then skipped grass warm up, skipped Cincy and he is out again with injury...trying to win with injuries is not possible, twice this year he retired hurt in a slam match. Time is running out, and it not all in his hands.

I do agree with your second line though, I think Federer needs at least one more to truly put the record away for good. I don't personally see Nadal getting 22 from this point, 2018 was a massive lost chance, and as stated, after his 28 birthday until now, he has made zero progress in closing the gap. That is huge. Slams are not a gimme, if Nadal has another 2015-2016 period, that is it for him.

Djokovic has the most catching up to do, where he will stand, who knows, it very possible, he remains where he is, or he moves closer. The momentum though is with him, and it seems as of now Jelena is with him every step of the way.
 
Hitman said:
Everything possible though doesn't mean the impossible. Nadal got stopped by Djokovic who wasn't even playing anywhere close to his best at W. Then at USO, despite so many here uber confident in him, especially after he won Toronto, he struggled at almost every round and Thiem pretty much killed him. His body is getting older, injuries are coming more and more frequently. He didn't even play the first three months, barring a few matches in AO, then skipped grass warm up, skipped Cincy and he is out again with injury...trying to win with injuries is not possible, twice this year he retired hurt in a slam match. Time is running out, and it not all in his hands.

I do agree with your second line though, I think Federer needs at least one more to truly put the record away for good. I don't personally see Nadal getting 22 from this point, 2018 was a massive lost chance, and as stated, after his 28 birthday until now, he has made zero progress in closing the gap. That is huge. Slams are not a gimme, if Nadal has another 2015-2016 period, that is it for him.

Djokovic has the most catching up to do, where he will stand, who knows, it very possible, he remains where he is, or he moves closer. The momentum though is with him, and it seems as of now Jelena is with him every step of the way.
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Perfectly possible Nadal and Djoko will both get to 18 and Fed sends them a crate of Dom Perignon each...…

Back in 2014 Nadal can't have imagined that he would have 17 slams, be still looking at Federer in front of him AND looking over his shoulder.
 
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Fedforever said:
Why is that a certainty? He is probably no longer the favourite to win off clay slams. And to win the next four French Opens is a big ask even for him - he has to be injury free for a start.

He may do it but it's not rational to talk about it as a certainty.
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I am not saying that it is certain, but, in my opinion, probable. I believe that his target is to play 5 years after Federer is retired, when GS numbers become a stationary target. I even envisage Federer coming out of retirement to defend his record (like Foreman). Nadal will use all (legal stuff; stem cells are legal; the most efficient things are legal) on his disposal that can help him with longevity. He will priorities. He is "only" 3 down and he has 20-30 opportunities. Most people think that he will not play that long. I think that he will. Also, I don't see these players (Djokovic, Nadal, Federer) declining. I see them improving in their abilities to win matches.
 
Definitively RG.
It's not Fed's fault that Djokovic wasn't good enough to reach 2006,2007,2008,2009 and 2017 finals
 
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Fedforever said:
Perfectly possible Nadal and Djoko will get to 18 each and Fed sends them a crate of Dom Perignon each...…

Back in 2014 Nadal can't have imagined that he would have 17 slams, be still looking at Federer in front of him AND looking over his shoulder.
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Back then after RG 2014, Nadal to Djokovic slam count was 14-6. So in the past four years, not only has he made zero strides in lessening the distance between him and Federer, the gap back then was 3, it is still 3, but the slam gap between him and Djokovic has dropped from 8 slams to 3....
 
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ABCD said:
in my opinion, probable
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Nadal won one slam in the three years between 2014 and 2016, two in 2017 when he, like Federer, took advantage of Novak's hiatus, and one in 2018. Four more at 33+ given his injury record, Djokovic's revival and the possible emergence of new talent (they may not look like multi-slam winners but that doesn't mean they can't beat ageing legs on a given day) is not probable.

Federer winning three more slams at 35+ was not probable and the fact that it actually happened does not change that.
 
Fedforever said:
Nadal won one slam in the three years between 2014 and 2016, two in 2017 when he, like Federer, took advantage of Novak's hiatus, and one in 2018. Four more at 33+ given his injury record, Djokovic's revival and the possible emergence of new talent (they may not look like multi-slam winners but that doesn't mean they can't beat ageing legs on a given day) is not probable.

Federer winning three more slams at 35+ was not probable and the fact that it actually happened does not change that.
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Nadal's also a lot older tennis wise, and is carrying more injuries than a Federer at the same age. He cannot even do half a season, let alone a full season without getting injured.
 
His back.

No, but seriously. The Roland Garros record. First of all there's almost twice as many matches, and second of all he was so old when he played those finals with Novak it was impressive that he made them to start with and took a set/two sets off of Djokovic in them. I don't think they're even comparable, and judging by his reaction certainly after that first one "Can't believe I made it to five" I don't think he took it all that hard either.
 
ibbi said:
His back.

No, but seriously. The Roland Garros record. First of all there's almost twice as many matches, and second of all he was so old when he played those finals with Novak it was impressive that he made them to start with and took a set/two sets off of Djokovic in them. I don't think they're even comparable, and judging by his reaction certainly after that first one "Can't believe I made it to five" I don't think he took it all that hard either.
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859413440.gif
 
Hitman said:
Nadal's also a lot older tennis wise, and is carrying more injuries than a Federer at the same age. He cannot even do half a season, let alone a full season without getting injured.
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Federer also was not putting off the rest of his life whilst playing tennis. I can see why Nadal doesn't want to bring up his kids on tour given the importance his culture and birthplace has for him but if injuries start to make his career less enjoyable then it could be more of a struggle to keep denying himself things that most of us want.
 
Fedforever said:
Federer also was not putting off the rest of his life whilst playing tennis. I can see why Nadal doesn't want to bring up his kids on tour given the importance his culture and birthplace has for him but if injuries start to make his career less enjoyable then it could be more of a struggle to keep denying himself things that most of us want.
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His girlfriend has been very patient. It will reach a point where he will have to stop thinking only about himself, and I do not think he is that far off from it.
 
Hitman said:
And there is no way Federer straight sets Nadal at RG
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He could surely have if not for that sick mentality...
With all those tactics and mentality he played with throughout the tournament, he was zoning and playing perhaps his best clay court tennis....
Fed with his 2017 mentality takes that match 6-2 6-3 7-6
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
He could surely have if not for that sick mentality...
With all those tactics and mentality he played with throughout the tournament, he was zoning and playing perhaps his best clay court tennis....
Fed with his 2017 mentality takes that match 6-2 6-3 7-6
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That sick mentality was always part of his clay game with Nadal, you cannot remove emotion. Tennis in mainly about what is between the ears, on their day everyone can become a Rosol.

He wasn't going to ever win three straight sets against Nadal at RG, that is reaching too far. Federer was going to lose to that match regardless of whether his set point drop shot went in or not.
 
pmh1983 said:
A) 0-5 against Nadal at French Open (0-4 in finals)?

B) 0-2 against Djokovic in Wimbledon finals?

As a Federer fan, I wish neither of these were hanging over him. If Nadal had made the FO final in 2009 and/or had Fed converted his break point in the 5th set of the 2014 Wimbo final this possibly wouldn't even be a discussion. However for me going 0-2 against Djokovic in finals in his own backyard hurts him more than 0-5 (0-4 in finals) against Nadal at the French Open. Federer IS Wimbledon and losing finals 2 straight years to Djokovic was a real kick in the teeth for me, so thats my vote.

Discuss.
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Not Federer's fault Djokovic never played him at Wimb before Roger was 30.

Losing those 2 finals was no shame. Djokovic was at his peak/prime, while Fed was old and way past his.
 
If the DCGS is as coveted as the Nadal and Djokovic fans claim, the answer has to be Fed’s losses at the French Open.

But the correct answer are the 2 Wimbledon losses. Those are matches he should have won and could have won. Fed was not beating peak Rafa in RG finals, because nobody ever did. He’d be sitting on 10 Wimbledon titles now had he beaten Djoker in those 2 finals on his preferred surface.
 
TennisFan97068 said:
Definitely the 0-5.

Federer not finding an answer for Nadal on clay like Djokovic did is probably his biggest career hole.
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Djokovic never found a solution against a well-playing Nadal at RG either. Fed would have beaten 2015 Nadal at RG too, but never got the chance of playing such a poor Nadal.

Djokovic found solutions against Nadal in masters. At RG he was just as useless as Fed.
 
mike danny said:
Not Federer's fault Djokovic never played him at Wimb before Roger was 30.

Losing those 2 finals was no shame. Djokovic was at his peak/prime, while Fed was old and way past his.
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I think differently. Prior to 2014-15 Federer was still developing to play his best in 2015 and after. On August 17th Federer self-assessed himself:

“I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practised for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.”

What is H2H with Nadal prior and after 2015?

What is H2H with Murray prior and after 2015?
 
mike danny said:
Djokovic never found a solution against a well-playing Nadal at RG either. Fed would have beaten 2015 Nadal at RG too, but never got the chance of playing such a poor Nadal.

Djokovic found solutions against Nadal in masters. At RG he was just as useless as Fed.
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I'm afraid NOT. Federer would lost to Nadal in BO5 before match even started.
 
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