what if it is not the social media?

blablavla

Legend
we tend to blame social media for all the shortcomings in the youngsters, well, at least here on TT, tennis related
but what if it is not connected to Social Media?
what if the real difference between the generations that had real champions and the current snowflakes is very simple
I believe nowadays, kids in particular and people in general are getting medals and praise and encouragement for participation, not so much for result
or if it comes to result, than gone are the days when you were either #1 or just one of the losers

hence, what if this fear to hurt someone's feelings is the reason why so many generations coming after Djokodal are quite OK with being #4 or #5?

P.S.
I think both Rafa and Toni are quite transparent that Toni coached Rafa in the "either you are #1 or just one of the losers" mentality
And Nole is also not happy with anything but #1
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
And yet the women don't struggle with having young slam champions... funny that.

It's not this participation/snowflake mentality that you say but perhaps that the men have to fight to B05 and can't keep up with those who have been doing this for decades. All your points come unstuck when you look at the WTA who have had multiple slam champs in the 2000's and ate 1990's.
 

topher

Professional
And yet the women don't struggle with having young slam champions... funny that.

It's not this participation/snowflake mentality that you say but perhaps that the men have to fight to B05 and can't keep up with those who have been doing this for decades. All your points come unstuck when you look at the WTA who have had multiple slam champs in the 2000's and ate 1990's.
I think the difference with the women is there's only one of the Big 3 and she's Roger's age. If that was the case in the men's game we'd have new slam winners too by now.
 

Lleytonstation

G.O.A.T.
we tend to blame social media for all the shortcomings in the youngsters, well, at least here on TT, tennis related
but what if it is not connected to Social Media?
what if the real difference between the generations that had real champions and the current snowflakes is very simple
I believe nowadays, kids in particular and people in general are getting medals and praise and encouragement for participation, not so much for result
or if it comes to result, than gone are the days when you were either #1 or just one of the losers

hence, what if this fear to hurt someone's feelings is the reason why so many generations coming after Djokodal are quite OK with being #4 or #5?

P.S.
I think both Rafa and Toni are quite transparent that Toni coached Rafa in the "either you are #1 or just one of the losers" mentality
And Nole is also not happy with anything but #1
I think it is much more simple than that. They just are not that good.
 

nachiket nolefam

Hall of Fame
And yet the women don't struggle with having young slam champions... funny that.

It's not this participation/snowflake mentality that you say but perhaps that the men have to fight to B05 and can't keep up with those who have been doing this for decades. All your points come unstuck when you look at the WTA who have had multiple slam champs in the 2000's and ate 1990's.
That's a good pt. Look at wta tour. Everyone wins there after serena declined. Good example of participation trophies ruining competitive mentality.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
I think the difference with the women is there's only one of the Big 3 and she's Roger's age. If that was the case in the men's game we'd have new slam winners too by now.
Fully agreed, but that still doesn't back up OP's points. Op is trying to say ATP is failing because of "woke culture that praises participation" when it's not the case. It's 3 ATG battling it out stamina wise and defeating them.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
That's a good pt. Look at wta tour. Everyone wins there after serena declined. Good example of participation trophies ruining competitive mentality.
That literally makes 0 sense when you see women being wheeled off court in wheelchairs cause they wanted to win their match. Participation trophies are irrelevant and you thinking it is shows you know nothing of these players who literally hurt themselves to try and win.
 

blablavla

Legend
I think it is much more simple than that. They just are not that good.
I don't think so
There are young guys out there, who can hit the serve and groundies as good as the Big 3, and don't have major weaknesses in their game, well, except for the mental part and that is mostly losing to the Big 3 in the locker room or well before they reach the locker room
 

nachiket nolefam

Hall of Fame
That literally makes 0 sense when you see women being wheeled off court in wheelchairs cause they wanted to win their match. Participation trophies are irrelevant and you thinking it is shows you know nothing of these players who literally hurt themselves to try and win.
Ofcourse I am not a professional player. They are much better. But we shouldn't coddle them for sure. A win is a win. A loss means try harder.
 

topher

Professional
we tend to blame social media for all the shortcomings in the youngsters, well, at least here on TT, tennis related
but what if it is not connected to Social Media?
what if the real difference between the generations that had real champions and the current snowflakes is very simple
I believe nowadays, kids in particular and people in general are getting medals and praise and encouragement for participation, not so much for result
or if it comes to result, than gone are the days when you were either #1 or just one of the losers

hence, what if this fear to hurt someone's feelings is the reason why so many generations coming after Djokodal are quite OK with being #4 or #5?

P.S.
I think both Rafa and Toni are quite transparent that Toni coached Rafa in the "either you are #1 or just one of the losers" mentality
And Nole is also not happy with anything but #1
I don't think I've ever heard Toni or Rafa express a sentiment similar to Ricky Bobby's "If you're not first, you're last." like you're saying here.

I think they do believe in working incredibly hard and Toni has never been above tough love to push Rafa to his limits and hold him accountable. I'm not sure the younger players are getting that as much, whether that's a factor though I'm not so sure. Thiem was but he ditched that coach, do you think he would have had this lull under Gunter? It seems at least partially mental and a bit inexplicable to me.
 

blablavla

Legend
Fully agreed, but that still doesn't back up OP's points. Op is trying to say ATP is failing because of "woke culture that praises participation" when it's not the case. It's 3 ATG battling it out stamina wise and defeating them.
which stamina are you talking about buddy?
if you don't know that the younger body recovers faster, then please stay away from topics that might make you look not that good
 

blablavla

Legend
I don't think I've ever heard Toni or Rafa express a sentiment similar to Ricky Bobby's "If you're not first, you're last." like you're saying here.

I think they do believe in working incredibly hard and Toni has never been above tough love to push Rafa to his limits and hold him accountable. I'm not sure the younger players are getting that as much, whether that's a factor though I'm not so sure. Thiem was but he ditched that coach, do you think he would have had this lull under Gunter? It seems at least partially mental and a bit inexplicable to me.
From what I listened from Toni, that's what I got, he wasn't interested in Rafa participating or competing.
It was either win or you're a loser
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
which stamina are you talking about buddy?
if you don't know that the younger body recovers faster, then please stay away from topics that might make you look not that good
Yeah and the younger women have been winning slams for years from Swiatek to Kenin to Barty to Andreescu have proved this but you said this is a generational issue of coddled millennials who seek participation trophies and yet the women have shown they have what it takes. So your point is moot UNLESS you want to attack just the ATP young guys and not WTA for their failings?
 

Lleytonstation

G.O.A.T.
I don't think so
There are young guys out there, who can hit the serve and groundies as good as the Big 3, and don't have major weaknesses in their game, well, except for the mental part and that is mostly losing to the Big 3 in the locker room or well before they reach the locker room
I don't think any of them have a great serve. None have a net presence, or have a tactical brain.

Sure they can all hit the ball hard and rally, but that doesn't make you good.
 

blablavla

Legend
I don't think any of them have a great serve. None have a net presence, or have a tactical brain.

Sure they can all hit the ball hard and rally, but that doesn't make you good.
well, but Djokodal during their most dominant periods also dominated without serve & without net game
gone are the days when you had to attack the net, now you can camp all day long on the baseline, or even behind the linesmen

and I don't think that those who make it to top 10 don't have a tactical plan
 

topher

Professional
From what I listened from Toni, that's what I got, he wasn't interested in Rafa participating or competing.
It was either win or you're a loser
I've never heard him say anything precisely like that. I do think he expects Rafa to work to his full potential or he'd be wasting Toni's time. And obviously Toni believed Rafa's potential was of a very great player, so in essence he was not okay with Rafa not being anything but great. But if Rafa ends up behind say Novak in the slam count I don't think Toni would consider Rafa a loser because he wasn't #1. He would just say Novak was better, hats off to him.
 

blablavla

Legend
Yeah and the younger women have been winning slams for years from Swiatek to Kenin to Barty to Andreescu have proved this but you said this is a generational issue of coddled millennials who seek participation trophies and yet the women have shown they have what it takes. So your point is moot UNLESS you want to attack just the ATP young guys and not WTA for their failings?
I'm not attacking, I'm discussing
but I see that you're not well familiar with the concept, so unless you want to change the manner in which you discuss, I'll ignore you
and I must say that our past attempts to communicate failed miserably since you come with strong opinions and refuse to process any facts, so that as well suggests me that it's better to ignore you
 

blablavla

Legend
I've never heard him say anything precisely like that. I do think he expects Rafa to work to his full potential or he'd be wasting Toni's time. And obviously Toni believed Rafa's potential was of a very great player, so in essence he was not okay with Rafa not being anything but great. But if Rafa ends up behind say Novak in the slam count I don't think Toni would consider Rafa a loser because he wasn't #1. He would just say Novak was better, hats off to him.
1. well, that's how I interpreted Toni's words, that not word by word quote
2. there was no Novak or Roger when Rafa was a kid, and yet Toni was focusing on winning mentality since Rafa was a small kid
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
I'm not attacking, I'm discussing
but I see that you're not well familiar with the concept, so unless you want to change the manner in which you discuss, I'll ignore you
and I must say that our past attempts to communicate failed miserably since you come with strong opinions and refuse to process any facts, so that as well suggests me that it's better to ignore you
Why do you cite young bodies recovering faster as a reason why the ATP should be doing well and ignore the WTA youngsters doing well and proving you wrong? Do you acknowledge there is a discrepancy between the ATP and WTA and that your point about current generations is wrong or only applicable to men?
 

Kralingen

Professional
You guys talking about participation trophies sound ridiculous.

The issue with Tennis players born in the 1990s is overexposure and too much success if anything. Basically all of them are child and teenage prodigies who have been winning awards like “German U14 Champion” and playing juniors events vs. each other since they were 10 years old. Those are not participation trophies, it’s an abundance of competition, and an awareness of their competitors on an intimate level, at a young age.

These kids are getting worked harder in their early teens than nearly any generation ever, doing Pilates, yoga, meditation courses and and state of the art optimized training plans and diets. In many ways they live professional lifestyles at age 12-13.

I am begging you to please make an effort to have a real conversation with just one person under 25 because to me aged 24 I'm cringing at every post in this thread. Please, I promise it will help your overall perspective on the world.
 

blablavla

Legend
Do you acknowledge there is a discrepancy between the ATP and WTA and that your point about current generations is wrong or only applicable to men?
there are much more differences between ATP and WTA than what you are mentioning, which you are conveniently ignoring
one of which could be a more even talent distribution, combined with the Williams sisters losing a step here and a step there, and as a result not being able to dominate any longer

remember the time in ATP when there was an even talent distribution?
Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, Federer, playing along some other great champions?

my question goes to why Dimitrov generation, and now Medvedev generation keeps losing

And no, they don't lack ball hitting capability
and no, they don't lack tactical understanding, as otherwise they wouldn't reach top 3 top 5 of the ATP ranking
and yes, they do have the mentality to win smaller tournaments, but not the mentality to defeat a Djokovic or Nadal in the final of a GS, which to me says that their biggest struggle is mentality

Why do you cite young bodies recovering faster as a reason why the ATP should be doing well and ignore the WTA youngsters doing well and proving you wrong
because that's a fact that 20-25 years old athletes have enough energy for a grinding match and recover faster than a 33 years old athlete
 

Thriller

Professional
I don't think so
There are young guys out there, who can hit the serve and groundies as good as the Big 3, and don't have major weaknesses in their game, well, except for the mental part and that is mostly losing to the Big 3 in the locker room or well before they reach the locker room
Zverev -- inconsistent serve
Tsitsipas -- attackable backhand
Medvedev -- struggles when he is forced to be the aggressor
Rublev -- lacks creativity

Tactical awareness? How does that improve with years of experience of playing massive best of 5 matches? How do you even compete with that when you are 19 like Musetti who was being bashed this week?
Unless you are a very rare natural talent, you can't. Becker could (on grass). Sampras could. Nadal could. Federer couldn't.
 

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
That's a good pt. Look at wta tour. Everyone wins there after serena declined. Good example of participation trophies ruining competitive mentality.
You see the same mentality on this forum - there are many people here who want "new winners". They feel like all players deserve to win big tournaments and have an equal amount of success. We are definitely in a participation trophy generation where everyone feels like they are entitled to success.
 

blablavla

Legend
Zverev -- inconsistent serve
Tsitsipas -- attackable backhand
Medvedev -- struggles when he is forced to be the aggressor
Rublev -- lacks creativity

Tactical awareness? How does that improve with years of experience of playing massive best of 5 matches? How do you even compete with that when you are 19 like Musetti who was being bashed this week?
Unless you are a very rare natural talent, you can't. Becker could (on grass). Sampras could. Nadal could. Federer couldn't.
dude, these are all top 10 players
before saying that something in their element is a major weakness, ask yourself how did they get to top 10, and how Zverev with his inconsistent serve or Med with his struggles won M1000 or reached SF/F stage of GS tournaments

what does it say then about the rest of pro players? if folks with such major weakness get to top 10?
 

Thriller

Professional
dude, these are all top 10 players
before saying that something in their element is a major weakness, ask yourself how did they get to top 10, and how Zverev with his inconsistent serve or Med with his struggles won M1000 or reached SF/F stage of GS tournaments

what does it say then about the rest of pro players? if folks with such major weakness get to top 10?
They are major weaknesses relative to the Big 2 who comparatively have very few technical or tactical weaknesses, still have their health and fitness, and have over 20 years of experience of playing their best tennis in the most pressured situations when it really counts.
Again, if you look at other individual combat sports like boxing you see the same thing the vast majority of champions from middleweight upwards (tennis weight) are over 30 and the majority over 35. The same in MMA. The old sayings have value, you cannot buy experience.

What is unique is to have 3 ATGs at the same time with their eyes on legacy, who cannot retire because the other two are a threat. So they have pushed each other for longer, improving their games for longer and helped to extend each other's careers for longer. I don't suppose any of them thought they would still be competing now.
 

blablavla

Legend
They are major weaknesses relative to the Big 2 who comparatively have very few technical or tactical weaknesses, still have their health and fitness, and have over 20 years of experience of playing their best tennis in the most pressured situations when it really counts.
Again, if you look at other individual combat sports like boxing you see the same thing the vast majority of champions from middleweight upwards (tennis weight) are over 30 and the majority over 35. The same in MMA. The old sayings have value, you cannot buy experience.

What is unique is to have 3 ATGs at the same time with their eyes on legacy, who cannot retire because the other two are a threat. So they have pushed each other for longer, improving their games for longer and helped to extend each other's careers for longer. I don't suppose any of them thought they would still be competing now.
are you seriously comparing now boxing to tennis?
which boxing champion has to play 50-70 official matches per year?

lol
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
There is opinion and there is social scientific observation. Child rearing has become more democratic for sure but ...

people have been complaining about too much emphasis on 'participation' for about half a century!
 

Thriller

Professional
are you seriously comparing now boxing to tennis?
which boxing champion has to play 50-70 official matches per year?

lol
Have you ever boxed? I'd like to spend some time in the ring with you.
Note, in boxing when you are even a tiny bit slow, weak or out of condition, especially at elite level, you don't just lose, you get hurt, very badly. There is every incentive for boxers to be as fit as can be and boxing training is universally acknowledged as some of the most intensive and effective. Yet the 30 somethings are dominating. Why? Experience.
 

blablavla

Legend
Have you ever boxed? I'd like to spend some time in the ring with you.
Note, in boxing when you are even a tiny bit slow, weak or out of condition, especially at elite level, you don't just lose, you get hurt, very badly. There is every incentive for boxers to be as fit as can be and boxing training is universally acknowledged as some of the most intensive and effective. Yet the 30 somethings are dominating. Why? Experience.
did you receive too many punches in the head while boxing?
I don't see another explanation for your comparison of box with tennis
 

Thriller

Professional
did you receive too many punches in the head while boxing?
I don't see another explanation for your comparison of box with tennis
I boxed competitively in the Army and continued to train and spar as it is the best fitness workout possible. I have played tennis all my life. They are very similar and a lot of the skills and psychological approach is directly transferable. They are both combat sports where you face your opponent and trade blows, looking for weaknesses to exploit before going in for the kill. Both are highly technical and require very precise movement and the ability to disguise movement. Psychologically in both sports, you are very exposed you are on your own no one can solve your problems for you. Both require explosiveness and stamina in equal measure and both severely punish participants who lose their condition. When fairly evenly matched, the match will be won by the person with the stronger will. Of course top boxers do not fight 50 times per year. One bout is so exhausting and injurious it takes weeks to recover. Yet the 30 somethings are still dominating.

You can't beat experience.
 

blablavla

Legend
I see reading and comprehension is not your strong point. Re-read #31 and report back with the correct answer.
lol,
sorry for not reading that word salad

you do understand that preparing for 1 tough event is, speaking in relative terms, easier than being fit for 50-70 events?
since you were trying your forces in competitive sport, shall I explain to you the importance of recovery? and when it is easier to recover, after 1 exhaustive event or after 50-70 events? for which by the way, you need to train
 

Aabye5

Rookie
Personally, I don't blame social media. I blame the tennis media. They have created "the big 3" concept and make the others feel like chopped liver.

Serena, for many reasons, has never had the same aura of invincibility around her. Plus, there is one of her, not 3.
 
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Thriller

Professional
lol,
sorry for not reading that word salad

you do understand that preparing for 1 tough event is, speaking in relative terms, easier than being fit for 50-70 events?
since you were trying your forces in competitive sport, shall I explain to you the importance of recovery? and when it is easier to recover, after 1 exhaustive event or after 50-70 events? for which by the way, you need to train
As you have no idea how boxers prepare for a championship match e.g. weeks / months of lung busting fitness work followed and being punched daily in the sparring ring, you really ought to be quiet.
 

blablavla

Legend
As you have no idea how boxers prepare for a championship match e.g. weeks / months of lung busting fitness work followed and being punched daily in the sparring ring, you really ought to be quiet.
apparently you have no idea how tennis players prepare and recover

P.S.
it's not up to you to tell me when to be quiet and when not
you can ignore this thread, or go to a boxing forum
 

Thriller

Professional
apparently you have no idea how tennis players prepare and recover

P.S.
it's not up to you to tell me when to be quiet and when not
you can ignore this thread, or go to a boxing forum
Of course I do. I have played competitively and boxed competitively, so I know just how similar the physical requirements are.

PS I can and will tell you whatever I like, whenever I like. Take your own advice and locate the ignore button if you don't want to hear it.
 

blablavla

Legend
Of course I do. I have played competitively and boxed competitively, so I know just how similar the physical requirements are.

PS I can and will tell you whatever I like, whenever I like. Take your own advice and locate the ignore button if you don't want to hear it.
buddy, read that post once again, it's short, so even after boxing, with all the punches in the head, it should be easy to comprehend
I didn't tell you to be quiet
I just gave you some options if you think that you can't convince me in that BS that pro boxing is similar to pro tennis

'you can ignore' is different from 'ignore' :cool:
 

Thriller

Professional
buddy, read that post once again, it's short, so even after boxing, with all the punches in the head, it should be easy to comprehend
I didn't tell you to be quiet
I just gave you some options if you think that you can't convince me in that BS that pro boxing is similar to pro tennis

'you can ignore' is different from 'ignore' :cool:
You overrate your importance.
 
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