What if Nadal would have won the AO 2005 4R against Hewitt?

RS

Bionic Poster
I consider the following opponents not better finalists than guys Federer faced:

Nadal Wimb 2011 F
Nadal USO 2011 F
Nadal AO 2019 F
Djokovic Wimb 2013 F

These 4 instances are clear examples of name over form.
But Federer has had finalists that did not play as well as Djokdal in form as well that were clearly weaker opponents at the same time
Of course it is not only names but that is part of it at least since the big 3 are usually above everybody else.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
On topic, no, I don't think Nadal wins it. Nalbandian, Roddick and Safin back to back would've been brutal.

I don't think he gets past Nalbandian.
The draw was brutal, indeed. Even Fed at his peak would need to be on to win it.

Even though Nadal wasn't at his 2009-2013 level on HC in 2005-2007, I still think he was unlucky with some opponents he met in HC slams, mainly Hewitt at the 2005 AO, Blake at the 2005 USO and Gonzalez at the 2007 AO. I think even 2009-2013 Rafa wouldn't have it easy against those guys.
 

ForehandRF

Legend
Yeah, one of the SF's in 2009 was a fairly straight forward straight sets match though. Both had one ATG SF, in 2009 there was a classic final (or near classic) while in 2005 there was a great second SF and F. On balance maybe the edge to 2009 for the last two rounds but I think the rest of the 2005 event makes up for that and pushes it ahead - Hewitt's run was damn epic. Beat more quality players than most slam runs...

Federer's main problem was the serve, really in both the slam finals he lost in 2009, funnily enough he served like a God in the other two. And yeah Agassi was gassed in the end, but for three sets the 2005 was top quality IMO.
That second set from Andre was top quality, probably the last great set of his career.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Nadal in his prime was better than most players Federer faced aside from him. Not in the 2011 USO final though.
Nadal played well of the ground though with the poor serving letting him down the rallies in the first 3 sets were quality.
But with Nadal having poor serving, Federer would have plenty of openings.

I may be in the minority here, but I think even 2011 Fed would have his chances against 2011 USO F Nadal. I am not writing his obituary just because hurr durr Fedal match-up.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
But with Nadal having poor serving, Federer would have plenty of openings.

I may be in the minority here, but I think even 2011 Fed would have his chances against 2011 USO F Nadal. I am not writing his obituary just because hurr durr Fedal match-up.
Would be close if the final happened between them. Federer might need to try finish off in 4 though Nadal could outlast him if it gets to a 5th.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
But Federer has had finalists that did not play as well as Djokdal in form as well that were clearly weaker opponents at the same time
Of course it is not only names but that is part of it at least since the big 3 are usually above everybody else.
I forgot to add Djokovic USO 2013 F too.

Yes, Federer too faced opponents who were not so great, but:

Roddick 2004/2009 Wimb F >>> Djokovic Wimb 2013 final.

Agassi 2005 USO F and Roddick USO 2006 F were not worse opponents than Djokovic USO 2013 F or even Nadal USO 2011 final.

Gonzalez AO 2007 F was a stronger opponent than Nadal AO 2019 F.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Would be close if the final happened between them. Federer might need to try finish off in 4 though Nadal could outlast him if it gets to a 5th.
I know match-ups are different and can't be compared, but I still think how Federer and Nadal respectively performed against that same Djokovic should be an indication that Nadal was really beatable and Federer would have had to be a mental mug to lose it. Which I am not excluding. But Nadal himself was beatable even by Federer.

Nadal performed way worse against Djokovic than Federer did, which shows how vulnerable he was.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
I forgot to add Djokovic USO 2013 F too.

Yes, Federer too faced opponents who were not so great, but:

Roddick 2004/2009 Wimb F >>> Djokovic Wimb 2013 final.

Agassi 2005 USO F and Roddick USO 2006 F were not worse opponents than Djokovic USO 2013 F or even Nadal USO 2011 final.

Gonzalez AO 2007 F was a stronger opponent than Nadal AO 2019 F.
Those are still examples even though correct but the opposite is still true.

You can say Roddick of the Wimbeldon 2004 final was not as good as Federer in the Wimbeldon 2008 final.
You can say Hewitt of the USO 2004 was not better than Federer of the Wimbeldon 2014 final.
You can say that Gonzalez of the 2007 final was not better than AO 2012 final Nadal.
etc etc etc
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Would be close if the final happened between them. Federer might need to try finish off in 4 though Nadal could outlast him if it gets to a 5th.

Nadal crumbled in the 4th set of the final though...probably not the case in a Fedal final because I'd assume Federer serves well and keeps the points short, but in case I think he wins before a fifth IMO. Djokovic served clearly worse in the final compared to the SF so he couldn't take advantage of Nadal's poor serving.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
I know match-ups are different and can't be compared, but I still think how Federer and Nadal respectively performed against that same Djokovic should be an indication that Nadal was really beatable and Federer would have had to be a mental mug to lose it. Which I am not excluding. But Nadal himself was beatable even by Federer.
Federer is stronger mentally than you give him credit for. Federer played Djokovic better in 2011 sure. Not every Federer loss to Nadal makes him mentally weak. He can be outplayed.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Those are still examples even though correct but the opposite is still true.

You can say Roddick of the Wimbeldon 2004 final was not as good as Federer in the Wimbeldon 2008 final.
You can say Hewitt of the USO 2004 was not better than Federer of the Wimbeldon 2014 final.
You can say that Gonzalez of the 2007 final was not better than AO 2012 final Nadal.
etc etc etc
Yes, what you said is perfectly valid.

But my examples are simply meant to contradict the notion that a Big 3 player in a final will always be tougher than a non-Big 3 player.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Federer is stronger mentally than you give him credit for. Federer played Djokovic better in 2011 sure. Not every Federer loss to Nadal makes him mentally weak. He can be outplayed.
True, he can be outplayed by Nadal and he has. But it usually happened off clay after Fed turned 30.

Wimb 2008 and AO 2009 were both mental. The former was mental on both sides, while the latter was more mental for Fed. Fed actually outplayed Nadal in the latter, but was beaten mentally.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I agree with that. I didn't call all of Federer early domination weak. I only felt 2006 needed some work.
2006 definitely was weak. No Fed fan will argue otherwise.

But it still had a very strong top 2. Stronger than a year like 2016 for example. Or even 2015.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
True, he can be outplayed by Nadal and he has. But it usually happened off clay after Fed turned 30.

Wimb 2008 and AO 2009 were both mental. The former was mental on both sides, while the latter was more mental for Fed. Fed actually outplayed Nadal in the latter, but was beaten mentally.
If Federer is not strong enough in the mind then who fault is that kinda? If it was most mental then Federer would not have fought so hard in both matches or played so well against a peaking Nadal. Who fault is that if Fed lost to clay matches leading up to Wimbeldon?
Federer did not outplay Nadal because of that 5th set you can say he was slightly better in the first 4 he actually won more points than Nadal.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
2006 definitely was weak. No Fed fan will argue otherwise.

But it still had a very strong top 2. Stronger than a year like 2016 for example. Or even 2015.
No year in modern tennis was been weak imo just weaker.
2006 had a great top 2 but the number 3/4 were worse than any 3/4 combo after IMO.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
If Federer is not strong enough in the mind then who fault is that kinda? If it was most mental then Federer would not have fought so hard in both matches or played so well against a peaking Nadal. Who fault is that if Fed lost to clay matches leading up to Wimbeldon?
Federer did not outplay Nadal because of that 5th set you can say he was slightly better in the first 4 he actually won more points than Nadal.
Even with that 5th set, he still ended up with 1 more point won.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Even with that 5th set, he still ended up with 1 more point won.
Because he won 13 more in the other 4 sets combined. And not all points have the same worth anyways. That is on average just over 3 more points won in a set.
Little to separate them it could have gone the other way would be more accurate.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
He loses to Nalbandian or Roddick with 99% certainty. But if he slipped by Safin would have decimated him.

That wouldn't do much for his confidence.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
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Nadal crumbled in the 4th set of the final though...probably not the case in a Fedal final because I'd assume Federer serves well and keeps the points short, but in case I think he wins before a fifth IMO. Djokovic served clearly worse in the final compared to the SF so he couldn't take advantage of Nadal's poor serving.
Nadal would edge it imo in 5 sets but I see why somebody would disagree.
Nadal was defending like mad in the final I think Federer would have a hard time avoiding the longer rallies.
Djokovic served better the SF he served really well actually. Federer played better than Nadal did though. The match-up is different because at the time Nadal was a nightmare-for Federer but not Djokovic.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
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Nadal would edge it imo in 5 sets but I see why somebody would disagree.
Nadal was defending like mad in the final I think Federer would have a hard time avoiding the longer rallies.
Djokovic served better the SF he served really well actually. Federer played better than Nadal did though. The match-up is different because at the time Nadal was a nightmare-for Federer but not Djokovic.

Fair enough, agree to disagree. Can't really fault anyone for backing Nadal given their history.
 
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