What if Seles had taken her match point vs Zina in 1990 quarters?

[anointedone]

Currently it is interesting Navratilova has the record of Wimbledon singles titles with 9, Wills Moody is next with 8, and Graf has 7.

At Wimbledon 1990 up and coming superstar but grass court mediocrity Monica Seles was playing perennial second tier top player Zina Garrison in a Wimbledon quarterfinal. Monica actually had a match point which Zina saved by hitting a forehand winner right on the line. Zina came back to win the match. This match was considered relatively unimportant at the time as neither was considered a contender for the Championship, and the big 3 contenders of Graf, Navratilova, Sabatini, were still around. However in the next round Zina Garisson played the match of her life and pulled one of the biggest upsets in Wimbledon history over Graf in the semis. Zina then went on, and more expectedly, was clobbered by Navratilova in the final.

Obviously if Seles had taken her match point vs Zina she would have fallen easily to Graf in the semis. So the question becomes what would have happened in the Navratilova-Graf final. Graf had defeated Navratilova in 3 sets but quite convincingly to win the 1988 and 1989 finals. However she was in a mild slump, while Martina was really up for the event. Would Graf have won and left Martina, Graf, Wills Moody currently in a 3 way tie for Wimbledon titles with 8 each, or would Martina have won even after losing the previous two years finals.

 

[rolandg]

I don't think anyone would have beaten Nav that year.

Pointless question though.

 

[julesb]

I think Graf probably would have won. Martina couldnt even come close to beating her the last two years before that so I doubt she would have a year older and on really bad knees. So probably had Monica converted her match point vs Zina in the quarters there would now be a 3 way tie for the Wimbledon record.

 

[CEvertFan]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

 

[flying24]

Martina would have won since Graf was playing really bad tennis at the time. The fact she lost to Zina who she would normally beat with her left hand says enough about her form then.

 

[julesb]

How old was Martina in 1990? Wasnt she about 36 or something.

 

[380pistol]

What would've happened??? She would've gotten spanked by Steffi in the semis.

Anything else??

 

[anointedone]

What would've happened??? She would've gotten spanked by Steffi in the semis.

Anything else??

That is a foregone conclusion. The real question is what would have happened between Graf and Navratilova in the final. It would be the difference between Martina having sole possesion of the Wimbledon singles record or 3 women sharing it.

 

[380pistol]

What would've happened??? She would've gotten spanked by Steffi in the semis.

Anything else??

That is a foregone conclusion. The real question is what would have happened between Graf and Navratilova in the final. It would be the difference between Martina having sole possesion of the Wimbledon singles record or 3 women sharing it.

Then they would all be tied with 8. I would still regard Martina as the greatest grasscourter (though that would have been 6 straight for Graf), but Graf was tough back then, and Martina was in her early 30's. Steffi had beaten Martina in the last 2 finals and in 1988(when Nav was 2 yrs younger) she ran off 12 of the last 13 games.

 

[boredone3456]

I think Graf Would have won, but not really sure. if Seles had won against Garrison I feel sure in saying Graf would have beaten her to get to the finals, as Graf on Grass was a nightmare for Seles even if Graf was to have an off day.

I think the Final would have been a fight though, as some have said Graf at the time was struggling with different issues so she would have been vulnerable to an older but still very dangerous Martina, especially on grass where Martina was always such a threat.

I think in the end the end, Graf would have won because she was younger and fitter than Martina in '90, since Martina winning that year was largely due to some luck, her draw to the semi's wasn't that hard and Sabatini played really poorly in their semifinal match in my opinion, than of course Garrison was a first time Finalist and had a lot or nerves on her mind at the time. I think if it had been Graf across the net from her that year in the final, she would have one less Wimby to her name.

 

[grafrules]

Garrison was also something like 1-26 vs Martina lifetime going in that final so Martina is a horrible matchup for Garrison. Granted Graf is too but atleast vs her it was 1-6 as opposed to 1-26 or something, and she played an insane match vs Graf in the semis, by far the best match of her life. The Seles-Garrison quarterfinal was mediocre at best, I was amazed after seeing Garrison play so poorly to beat Seles on grass that she could play the match of her life vs Graf in the semis.

 

[julesb]

I checked her bio and Martina was 33 in 1990. That is still pretty old.

 

[CEvertFan]

Steffi only won 1 Slam in '90 which just shows that she wasn't nearly at her best during that year (for her standards) and she wouldn't have beaten Martina if she had reached the final. It's all a moot point though considering that her form was poor enough to lose to Garrison that year. I liked Zina and she was a decent player but she was no threat to an in form Graf. I remember being quite shocked while watching that match because I almost couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing.

 

[julesb]

It was strange how bad Steffi played that year after playing so extremely well the previous 3 years. She wasnt old or injured so it was kind of inexplicable how she just sort of fell apart that year. Usually great players that go in slumps have injuries, fatigue, burnout, age, or personal problems.

 

[CEvertFan]

Currently it is interesting Navratilova has the record of Wimbledon singles titles with 9, Wills Moody is next with 8, and Graf has 7.

At Wimbledon 1990 up and coming superstar but grass court mediocrity Monica Seles was playing perennial second tier top player Zina Garrison in a Wimbledon quarterfinal. Monica actually had a match point which Zina saved by hitting a forehand winner right on the line. Zina came back to win the match. This match was considered relatively unimportant at the time as neither was considered a contender for the Championship, and the big 3 contenders of Graf, Navratilova, Sabatini, were still around. However in the next round Zina Garisson played the match of her life and pulled one of the biggest upsets in Wimbledon history over Graf in the semis. Zina then went on, and more expectedly, was clobbered by Navratilova in the final.

Obviously if Seles had taken her match point vs Zina she would have fallen easily to Graf in the semis. So the question becomes what would have happened in the Navratilova-Graf final. Graf had defeated Navratilova in 3 sets but quite convincingly to win the 1988 and 1989 finals. However she was in a mild slump, while Martina was really up for the event. Would Graf have won and left Martina, Graf, Wills Moody currently in a 3 way tie for Wimbledon titles with 8 each, or would Martina have won even after losing the previous two years finals.

Actually, Graf is tied with Dorothea Lambert Chambers from Great Britain who also won 7 Wimbledons from 1903-1914.

 

[anointedone]

Actually, Graf is tied with Dorothea Lambert Chambers from Great Britain who also won 7 Wimbledons from 1903-1914.

Thank you, I stand corrected. She took Lenglen to near defeat when she was almost 40 so she must be a pretty darn good player in her own right. Mind you that was Lenglen's first year of dominance, and the next year Lenglen spanked her. Still maybe a younger Dorothea Chambers could have been the rival Lenglen.

 

[CEvertFan]

Thank you, I stand corrected. She took Lenglen to near defeat when she was almost 40 so she must be a pretty darn good player in her own right. Mind you that was Lenglen's first year of dominance, and the next year Lenglen spanked her. Still maybe a younger Dorothea Chambers could have been the rival Lenglen.

Actually Mrs. Lambert Chambers was 2 months shy of being 41 when she faced Lenglen in 1919 and I find it amazing that she was still able to play at such a high level even though the game wasn't nearly as physical as it is now. It's quite impressive and what I find even more amazing is that she did it while wearing what was considered proper dress for the time (floor length skirt, long sleeved high neck blouse and petticoats, corset etc.), as wearing that sort of outfit on a tennis court had to be very uncomfortable and confining. Undoubtedly Dorothea was helped by the challenge round system because as the defending champion (she had won it last in 1914 before the start of WWI and play was suspended until 1919) she only had to play Lenglen so she was able to save all her strength and energy for that one match and then when she had to play through the tournament in 1920 to face Lenglen again in the challenge round, she was probably utterly exhausted and as you noted was then easily beaten by Lenglen.

 

[380pistol]

I checked her bio and Martina was 33 in 1990. That is still pretty old.

That's why I can't see it. Navratolova played a close 1st set before running away with it in the 2nd. At 33 I got to go with Graf. Peak Martina's a different dsicussion though.

 

[navratilovafan]

Graf's crappy form in 1990 more then negated Martina's age disadvantage, which wouldnt be as much as a typical 33 year old since Martina was a late bloomer remember. In 1988-1990 Martina wasnt even that far from her prime, if Graf wasnt around she would still be the #1 player especialy in 1988 and 1989. Graf was playing some awful tennis that year, choking away the first set of the French Open final to 16 year old Seles, losing to Garrison in a Wimbledon semi, getting destroyed by Sabatini in the U.S Open final. Also while it was a big upset Martina beat Graf in the U.S Open semis in 1991 when Martina was a year older and Graf wasnt in nearly as bad of form as she was in 1990.

Also remember Zina even barely beat Monica Seles on grass in the previous round. It looks pretty bad on Graf's form at the time that she lost to someone on grass who had to save match points vs Seles on grass the previous round. I am not saying Seles would have beaten Graf, I am sure she still would not have, but Graf should not have had such a hard time beating someone who was a point away from losing to Seles on grass a couple days earlier.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Seles was on a 36 match win streak(the longest streak by anyone on tour that year) going into the qf's of wimbledon that year, let's not go overboard with graf being a 'lock' to beating her in the sf had she made it. I doubt any oddsmaker would have thought so, esp with the paternity suit with graf's father going on at the time plus her losing to seles in their last 2 matches.

The Seles-Garrison quarterfinal was mediocre at best, I was amazed after seeing Garrison play so poorly to beat Seles on grass

the garrison-seles match was called the best women's match of 1990 by many that year.

This match was considered relatively unimportant at the time as neither was considered a contender for the Championship, and the big 3 contenders of Graf, Navratilova, Sabatini, were still around.

Seles was very much considered one of the favorites by the media & players. It was considered a huge upset. You shouldn't use what you know in 2008 to assume what it was like in 1990. And no one was talking about sabatini as a contender at all that year, don't know where you got that.

here are some excerpts from SI on this event:

Talk about a cat with nine lives. If there is anything more remarkable than Martina Navratilova, that grandest of tabbies, winning her record 99th match at the All England Club and still another record ninth Wimbledon championship last week, it is the identities of the women she didn't have to beat to reach those plateaus.

Navratilova didn't play Chris Evert, NBC's own, although she did have to curtsy before her old rival, who happened to be sitting in the Royal Box one day when Navratilova strode onto the greensward. She didn't play Monica Seles, the hottest player in the game, who had arrived in London with 32 straight match victories. She didn't play Steffi Graf, the No. 1 player not only in the world but also in the gutter of Fleet Street journalism—THIS TART IS RUINING MY GAME SAYS STEFFI, screamed The Sun. And she didn't even have to play Helen Wills Moody Roark, who couldn't be bothered to leave her Carmel, Calif., home and defend the record of eight titles she shared with Navratilova.

Ms. Roark is 84.

Picky, picky.

"Nine? I can't even comprehend one [Wimbledon title]. That's amazing...unrealistic," said Zina Garrison, who pulled off a semi-amazing stunt of her own by upsetting both Seles and Graf to reach the finals, where the newly industrious Lady Z was finally put to rest, 6-4, 6-1, zzzzzz.

The octogenarian Roark might have been heavier traffic than some of Navratilova's early-round patsies, among them Katerina Maleeva, who won two games in a match that lasted barely the time it took to figure out which of the three Maleeva sisters entered at Wimbledon she was, and Karin Kschwendt, who won another two games before admitting, "It was so strange to see Martina live [rather than on TV]. My heart was booming. I was maybe too impressed." Maybe.

Moreover, in the last two rounds Navratilova had only to go through the motions against two opponents—Gabriela Sabatini, who was experiencing her own tragedy (a former boyfriend calling her "a fat duck," according to the ever-vigilant Sun) and Garrison—against whom she now has a combined 41-4 career record. Even Navratilova acknowledged it would have been "more fitting" if two-time defending champion Graf, her tennis suddenly patchy, her thoughts obviously scrambled over her father's alleged dalliance with a Playboy model, had joined her in the final. But, said Navritilova, "I had prepared for Wimbledon. The event overtakes any single person. I didn't care if I scraped and scratched to get this. They don't put an asterisk next to your name saying you won but didn't play that well." In fact, Navratilova played like a dream.

 

[CEvertFan]

Graf's crappy form in 1990 more then negated Martina's age disadvantage, which wouldnt be as much as a typical 33 year old since Martina was a late bloomer remember. In 1988-1990 Martina wasnt even that far from her prime, if Graf wasnt around she would still be the #1 player especialy in 1988 and 1989. Graf was playing some awful tennis that year, choking away the first set of the French Open final to 16 year old Seles, losing to Garrison in a Wimbledon semi, getting destroyed by Sabatini in the U.S Open final. Also while it was a big upset Martina beat Graf in the U.S Open semis in 1991 when Martina was a year older and Graf wasnt in nearly as bad of form as she was in 1990.

Also remember Zina even barely beat Monica Seles on grass in the previous round. It looks pretty bad on Graf's form at the time that she lost to someone on grass who had to save match points vs Seles on grass the previous round. I am not saying Seles would have beaten Graf, I am sure she still would not have, but Graf should not have had such a hard time beating someone who was a point away from losing to Seles on grass a couple days earlier.

I totally agree. When most any other player wins a major and makes it to two other major finals and a semi it would be considered a great year for that player but this was Steffi Graf, who was totally dominating everyone and winning everything in sight, so for her it was just an OK year as opposed to a great one. I believe that was also around the time when the scandal about her father came to light so that could have affected her negatively, but because she wasn't at her best is why I say that Martina would have beaten Steffi if Zina hadn't beaten her to it. Navratilova was in good form in 1990 and was especially up for Wimbledon that year and when Martina is playing her best/near best tennis on grass she would always be the favorite.

 

[CEvertFan]

Garrison was also something like 1-26 vs Martina lifetime going in that final so Martina is a horrible matchup for Garrison. Granted Graf is too but atleast vs her it was 1-6 as opposed to 1-26 or something, and she played an insane match vs Graf in the semis, by far the best match of her life. The Seles-Garrison quarterfinal was mediocre at best, I was amazed after seeing Garrison play so poorly to beat Seles on grass that she could play the match of her life vs Graf in the semis.

The WTA site has their head to head as 12-2 in favor of Graf and more than a few of those wins by Graf were in straight sets.

 

[anointedone]

Seles was on a 36 match win streak(the longest streak by anyone on tour that year) going into the qf's of wimbledon that year

how many of those matches on grass? 4 rounds of Wimbledon vs a bunch of nobodies who Seles should beat even on grass, even as mediocre as she is on the surface.

let's not go overboard with graf being a 'lock' to beating her in the sf had she made it.

Of course she was a lock. Even Graf's 60% would beat Seles at 100% on grass. Seles even in her prime was never a great grass court player, never proved herself to being even close to one (and no once beating a granny Navratilova at Wimbledon who Capriati and Novotna had an easier time beating the year before and after is not enough). Seles got a combined 4 games in her 2 meetings with Graf on grass. Graf vs Seles on grass is a complete mismatch.

I doubt any oddsmaker would have thought so, esp with the paternity suit with graf's father going on at the time plus her losing to seles in their last 2 matches. I would bet that Seles was, at worst, #2 with the oddsmakers to win it all that year.

First of all I hugely doubt you are right and unless you show me those odds I certainly wont believe them as I find that very hard to believe that anyone would have put her higher then distant 3rd at most. However if this really was the case then oddsmakers obviously hadnt yet figured out what a weak player Seles is on grass relative to other surfaces then. I wouldnt compare Roddick on clay to Seles on grass but people didnt even realize clay was Roddick's worst surface by far when he was young either.

Seles two wins over Graf were on clay. Seles would have to be beating Graf 6-0, 6-1 on clay not 7-6, 6-4 to be playing well enough to beat her on grass.

the garrison-seles match was called the best women's match of 1990 by many at the time.

Only by someone who was blind. Both players were having trouble even keeping the ball in the court. If that is great tennis I would hate to see bad tennis. Amazing Garrison beat Seles even making a pile of errors that day as anyone who goes back and watches the match can see.

 

[rolandg]

how many of those matches on grass? 4 rounds of Wimbledon vs a bunch of nobodies who Seles should beat even on grass, even as mediocre as she is on the surface.



Of course she was a lock. Even Graf's 60% would beat Seles at 100% on grass. Seles even in her prime was never a great grass court player, never proved herself to being even close to one (and no once beating a granny Navratilova at Wimbledon who Capriati and Novotna had an easier time beating the year before and after is not enough). Seles got a combined 4 games in her 2 meetings with Graf on grass. Graf vs Seles on grass is a complete mismatch.



First of all I hugely doubt you are right and unless you show me those odds I certainly wont believe them as I find that very hard to believe that anyone would have put her higher then distant 3rd at most. However if this really was the case then oddsmakers obviously hadnt yet figured out what a weak player Seles is on grass relative to other surfaces then. I wouldnt compare Roddick on clay to Seles on grass but people didnt even realize clay was Roddick's worst surface by far when he was young either.

Seles two wins over Graf were on clay. Seles would have to be beating Graf 6-0, 6-1 on clay not 7-6, 6-4 to be playing well enough to beat her on grass.



Only by someone who was blind. Both players were having trouble even keeping the ball in the court. If that is great tennis I would hate to see bad tennis. Amazing Garrison beat Seles even making a pile of errors that day as anyone who goes back and watches the match can see.

You don't seem to understand what he is saying. Don't use hindsight when making statements about peoples' perceptions of things in 1990

 

[julesb]

Of course not. Seles would have gone on to destroy Graf in the semis, then destroy Navratilova in the final like she did in the Italian Open earlier this year. Not Graf, not Navratilova, but Seles would have won Wimbledon 1990 if she had taken her match point vs Zina in the quarters.

 

[grafselesfan]

Of course she would have. I love Monica but she would have been murdered by Steffi in the semis on grass just like she was in 1989 and 1992.

Then Graf would have no problem beating Navratilova in the final since she beat her pretty easily in 1988 and 1989 when Martina was younger and closer to her prime than in 1990. Of course likewise Graf isnt a teenager as she was in 1988 and 1989. She is not 20 and even stronger and more mature than she had been those last two years when she still defeated Martina.

I had never thought of this until now but now that someone brought up the hypothetical and I realize what it would have meant, I wish Monica had finished Zina off on her match point. She definitely cost Steffi and Wills being tied for this amazing record with Martina by not taking her match point like a champion that she is should have.

I still cant believe Graf ever lost to Zina either, especialy looking at the previous round. Zina barely beat Monica on grass and Monica is so much worse than Steffi on grass. I dont even remember the matches well now but Zina must have played 5 times better vs Graf than she did vs Monica, or Graf must have just played awful that day.

 

[DMan]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

The language and mantra of all Selestials!

 

[julesb]

Just to let you know Seles came closer to beating Garrison at Wimbledon 1990 than Graf did. Seles lost 9-7 in the 3rd set to Garrison and had a match point. Graf lost much more easily, 6-4 in the 3rd set. Garrison also played the match of her life to beat Seles, Seles played her worst tennis, and it was still closer than Graf could come to beating her in the next round.

 

[suwanee4712]

The Garrison/Seles match was great drama. It's one of those matches that I remember most from the old Court 1.

It's just speculation, but I really think Martina would've won anyway. Graf seemed miserable not only from her scinus infection but also from the off court stuff going on at the time. Poor Steffi could even be heard breathing as she struggled just to take in air as she played. It was really a gutsy effort by her to do as well as she did. But if she couldn't stop Zina from serve and volleying, there's not much she could've done against Martina, in my opinion.

This isn't relevent to the discussion of who would've won the tournament. But I also remember 1990 Wimbledon for a great match by 2 wildly talented players, Sabatini and Zvereva. Lots of great shotmaking as they brought out the best in one another.

 

[navratilovafan]

This isn't relevent to the discussion of who would've won the tournament. But I also remember 1990 Wimbledon for a great match by 2 wildly talented players, Sabatini and Zvereva. Lots of great shotmaking as they brought out the best in one another.

The ironic thing is they all but destroyed each others chances in the next round vs Martina in that compelling match. The winner of that match was never going to have enough energy left to have any real shot in the semis vs Martina.

I agree with you though overall that Martina was in exceptional form at that Wimbledon and was ready to take down anyone. Martina despite her age was playing her best tennis at Wimbledon in a # of years, not that she didnt play well the previous couple years, but her form was even a big notch up from there. I am sure Steffi would have beaten Monica in the semis, but this was clearly a slumping year for her. Her form was not what it had been the previous 3 years, and that would reflect in the fact she won only 1 slam title that year, and such shocking losses as her semifinal loss to Garrison at this Wimbledon. So I dont see Steffi having won the final over Martina this year. It may well have still gone 3 sets, I certainly cant see Martina having won nearly as easily as she did vs Zina vs Steffi, regardless Steffi's form. However the way Martina was playing and the way Steffi was playing this year, Martina still comes out ahead IMO even as I try to be unbiased.