What is “advanced”

[Rosstour]

Was recently asked to do an evaluation at a new/prospective club who just hired a new provider. My daughter does camp there, and one of the coaches clocked my build when I picked her up and asked if I was a player. They have beginner, intermediate and advanced clinics and asked me some questions. We were sort of on the bubble, so he just told me to come by for a brief rating drill.

I didn’t think it went that well—was rusty from not playing all summer due to injuries, and nervous as I haven’t taken a lesson in years. The head coach was also watching and he has a heavy Thor/Khal Drogo vibe so it was a tad intimidating. I hit every overhead off the top of the racquet, missed half my backhands long and a few FHs in the net.

But at the end, their conclusion was that I needed to be in the advanced clinic. Was surprising since I consider advanced to be solid 4.5 and up, and around 7 UTR give or take. I self-rate NTRP 4.0 and have a 5.5 UTR.

Does this make sense? I’m happy to embrace the challenge and a little flattered, but surprised and hoping it’s not a waste of time. Any thoughts? @10sbeast888 @Curious @ballmachineguy @Shroud

 

[Curious]

Don’t know what advanced means but as per my personal taste 5.5 UTR and above is good, watchable tennis.

 

[Rosstour]

Don’t know what advanced means but as per my personal taste 5.5 UTR and above is good, watchable tennis.

Reading their descriptions, their advanced clinic focuses on tactics and strategy, whereas the first two levels focus on grips, shot development, footwork.

 

[10sbeast888]

should be advanced for a 4.0

 

[StringSnapper]

Don’t know what advanced means but as per my personal taste 5.5 UTR and above is good, watchable tennis.

A lot of junk ballers and things still at 6 UTR, a guy at my last club is a 6.5 and only hits a slice forehand, but he is very fit

I'd probably agree @Rosstour , it's quite rare to see a junk baller style win 7+

 

[Jono123]

4.5 and upwards.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Well, if they are set on having three evenly populated groups and you are in the top third of available players it makes sense. They can always move you down to intermediate.
One question: were you looking to get into a clinic there? You made it sound like you were just picking up your daughter? Maybe they want to make money on clinics and were buttering you up to reel you in? Just sayin.’

 

[TennisCJC]

If I were running 3 clinics: 1. beginner, 2. intermediate and 3. advanced, this is how I would split the levels:

1. Beginner: USTA 3.0 and below
2. Intermediate: USTA 3.5
3. Advanced: USTA 4.0 and above

Keep in mind, there simply aren't that many 4.5 and above players out there so grouping 4.0 with the higher ratings makes sense. This is like A, B and C levels from my early days in tennis nearly 50 years ago.

This information below off a USTA site for 2019. Basically, it splits players into 3 balanced groups.

NTRP Group	Percentage
3.0 and below	31%
3.5	34%
4.0 and above	37%

Roughly, one-third below NTRP 3.5, one-third at 3.5, and one-third above 3.5. A 4.0 player is in the top 37% of players. A 4.5, top 11%. And a 5.0, top 2%.

 

[Dragy]

solid 4.5 and up

I can barely imagine a clinic for such players. Small group who got together with a good coach, or split sessions — totally. But clinic? Very unlikely.

Also I guess an experienced coach shall see through your rusty performance, if there’s good base and potential. He won’t evaluate you missing some overheads same as some 3.5 consistently tapping them in.

3.5 competitors with 50% win rate are totally intermediates. Most crowded category, anyways. Players who are through to 4.0 and have reasonable technique (even if not pro-like), and effectively use it matchplay — are advanced players.

True 4.5s and upper are top of recreational game. Even many teaching pros and former junior players settle here, though there’re obviously quite a lot of 5.0s as well.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I'd venture the majority of recreation and clubs players with coaches usually range from beginner and 3.0 to 4.0/4.5 max. So I usually see beginner as, well, beginner. High 3.0, all 3.5, and maybe low 4.0 as intermediate. Then 4.0+ as advanced. Played a lot of different places across the states and that seems about the usual grading.

 

[johnmccabe]

It's all relative, right. If the group is all 3.0-3.5, then you are advanced. If it's a bunch of boys shooting for D1 and pros, then UTR 8 is like beginner. Trolling a bit

 

[johnmccabe]

Reading their descriptions, their advanced clinic focuses on tactics and strategy, whereas the first two levels focus on grips, shot development, footwork.

Sounds like a good fit for you

 

[Shroud]

Was recently asked to do an evaluation at a new/prospective club who just hired a new provider. My daughter does camp there, and one of the coaches clocked my build when I picked her up and asked if I was a player. They have beginner, intermediate and advanced clinics and asked me some questions. We were sort of on the bubble, so he just told me to come by for a brief rating drill.

I didn’t think it went that well—was rusty from not playing all summer due to injuries, and nervous as I haven’t taken a lesson in years. The head coach was also watching and he has a heavy Thor/Khal Drogo vibe so it was a tad intimidating. I hit every overhead off the top of the racquet, missed half my backhands long and a few FHs in the net.

But at the end, their conclusion was that I needed to be in the advanced clinic. Was surprising since I consider advanced to be solid 4.5 and up, and around 7 UTR give or take. I self-rate NTRP 4.0 and have a 5.5 UTR.

Does this make sense? I’m happy to embrace the challenge and a little flattered, but surprised and hoping it’s not a waste of time. Any thoughts? @10sbeast888 @Curious @ballmachineguy @Shroud

Coaches can see potential though often it’s not the tennis potential so much as the $ potential. At least that is my take based on one coach saying I could be a 5.0. Lmao. Would take lottery money to get me there.

But maybe he saw your 120mph serves??

 

[Rosstour]

Coaches can see potential though often it’s not the tennis potential so much as the $ potential. At least that is my take based on one coach saying I could be a 5.0. Lmao. Would take lottery money to get me there.

But maybe he saw your 120mph serves??

lol never claimed 120 sir. But I did hit a couple big ones in the drill. That was the one thing that worked well

 

[AnyPUG]

sorry to break it to you, advanced or wannabe advanced status is handed out by collective wisdom of this forum. Any other source isn’t considered valid

 

[Shroud]

lol never claimed 120 sir. But I did hit a couple big ones in the drill. That was the one thing that worked well

probably the serves. Since that is one of the hardest shots and you hit some good ones it makes sense.

 

[USPTARF97]

Advanced in terms of groups is 4.5+. The problem with trying to do those groups is 4.5+ normally no one signs up. The 4.5 guys many of which used to be 5.0+ typically played collegiate tennis on some level and can go out and practice on their own. They know how to drill, know how to do patterns of play and how to work on specific things. They don’t need to pay someone to drill. All they need is a hitting partner of similar level.
For this reason you see these so called advanced groups being filled with 4.0 players and some 3.5. Not really an advanced group.
Pros in this area have resorted to just doing 3.5+ groups. They don’t call them advanced groups.

Beginner
2.5-3.0
3.5+

The only advanced groups here are for a select group of juniors. Something that is concerning is there is basically nothing for 4.5+ players to play in. Tournaments don’t make at that level, and there are very few teams at that level in the state. Teams go straight to state in league without playing any matches.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

There’s no hard & fast. It’s all relative and largely depends on where the classifications are being used. A PE class “advanced” ain’t necessarily the same as a Parks & Rec “advanced” or a tennis club “advanced” or a tennis academy “advanced”

An “ intermediate” in one setting might be a “low intermediate” in a more competitive setting. Likewise, a “high intermediate” could easily be “advanced” elsewhere.

 

[sureshs]

Maybe they figured out that they needed to massage your ego to get you to spend money.

I have been told by 3 different coaches that my hitting style is smooth like Federer.

That is true, though.

 

[socallefty]

It has become very subjective these days. But if you hang around with mostly USTA computer-rated league players, coaches or ex-college players, a UTR of around 7 is when you start getting respected as an ‘advanced’ player at least here in Southern California. I guess some of those players could have a high 4.0 NTRP rating and many would have a 4.5 rating.

But like others mentioned, a club would struggle to recruit enough 4.5+ players to fill up an advanced player drill regularly and most would take mid-4.0 players especially if they are not ‘pushers’ and hit relatively hard for that level.

 

[Shroud]

Maybe they figured out that they needed to massage your ego to get you to spend money.

I have been told by 3 different coaches that my hitting style is smooth like Federer.

That is true, though.

True that they told you or true that its actually smooth like fed?

 

[USPTARF97]

If anyone tells us we do anything like Federer they are lying. We suck compared to the top 200 players in the world even if we do play 5.0.

 

[Roforot]

why don't you tell us how it goes? how you feel compared to the other players in the clinic?
FWIW, the only thing I loathe about these clinics are the players who try to kill the feed either hitting a near winner or more often making an error.
I just want to get the drill started and these yahoos are trying to win the "clinic." It usually tends to be a guy and tends to be lower rated.

 

[user92626]

Maybe they figured out that they needed to massage your ego to get you to spend money.

I have been told by 3 different coaches that my hitting style is smooth like Federer.

That is true, though.

I have heard that's not the only thing on you that's smooth.

 

[johnmccabe]

If anyone tells us we do anything like Federer they are lying. We suck compared to the top 200 players in the world even if we do play 5.0.

Tennis world has many different tribes. Some are into USTA. Some are into juniors tennis but can barely hit a serve. Some are only into racquets. Some are only interested in debating top 3 ATP vs big 3 while sitting on couch all week.

Anyone swings a racquet 3 days a week is already very reasonable tennis dudes

 

[Jono123]

It has become very subjective these days. But if you hang around with mostly USTA computer-rated league players, coaches or ex-college players, a UTR of around 7 is when you start getting respected as an ‘advanced’ player at least here in Southern California. I guess some of those players could have a high 4.0 NTRP rating and many would have a 4.5 rating.

But like others mentioned, a club would struggle to recruit enough 4.5+ players to fill up an advanced player drill regularly and most would take mid-4.0 players especially if they are not ‘pushers’ and hit relatively hard for that level.

We have this issue in one club I play at. A variety of 4.0s book onto the advanced sessions, which puts off the teams players from attending.

Now the new coach has made it into a WhatApp invite only session, but the weaker players have complained and are now creeping back in.

 

[USPTARF97]

Tennis world has many different tribes. Some are into USTA. Some are into juniors tennis but can barely hit a serve. Some are only into racquets. Some are only interested in debating top 3 ATP vs big 3 while sitting on couch all week.

Anyone swings a racquet 3 days a week is already very reasonable tennis dudes

Reasonable in comparison to players of similar level but any comparison of any of us to Roger Federer is complete rubbish. . If you have seen that up close within a matter of feet one realizes the reality of their own tennis. Watched Federer practice during his complete dominance years from a matter of feet away. Poetry in motion.
Anyone that says we are in anyway similar to that is trying to glaze someone. The other players on tour know that he was something completely different. Dimitrov is the only player that comes close in that style of play.
Have played some of the top 200 players in the world when I played open level tennis. Trust me, we are not the same. It’s a harsh reality playing them.

 

[Rosstour]

Reasonable in comparison to players of similar level but any comparison of any of us to Roger Federer is complete rubbish. . If you have seen that up close within a matter of feet one realizes the reality of their own tennis. Watched Federer practice during his complete dominance years from a matter of feet away. Poetry in motion.
Anyone that says we are in anyway similar to that is trying to glaze someone. The other players on tour know that he was something completely different. Dimitrov is the only player that comes close in that style of play.
Have you played some players in the top 200? Trust me, we are not the same. It’s a harsh reality playing them.

I don’t think comparisons to pros are unreasonable, there are only so many ways to hit a ball and some crossover of style/aesthetics is inevitable.

 

[USPTARF97]

I don’t think comparisons to pros are unreasonable, there are only so many ways to hit a ball and some crossover of style/aesthetics is inevitable.

Federer? The only that would be the same is the size of the court and possibly the same net height.

 

[Rosstour]

Federer?

I mean, let’s say someone were to hit a 1HBH with a bent arm and an eastern forehand with a straight arm. The comparisons would be somewhat valid

 

[USPTARF97]

I mean, let’s say someone were to hit a 1HBH with a bent arm and an eastern forehand with a straight arm. The comparisons would be somewhat valid

Not even close.

 

[10sbeast888]

define 'compare'

compare as in monkey seadoo? sure why not.
compare as in similar performance? nah.

 

[USPTARF97]

You’re dreaming, which is fine, if you believe your strokes look like Federer because a tennis pro was feeding you balls and glazed you with that fabrication.

 

[10sbeast888]

You’re dreaming, which is fine, if you believe your strokes look like Federer because a tennis pro was feeding you balls and glazed you with that fabrication.

me? your preaching... the academy is involved in world class competition.. fully aware of the gaps.

not joking.

 

[USPTARF97]

me? your preaching... the academy is involved in world class competition.. fully aware of the gaps.

not joking.

The person claiming their strokes look like Federer. Gaps are one thing in terms of level but anyone claiming their strokes look like Federer is not in reality. Top 20 players will tell you those strokes are not something we are going to see again.
Dimitrov’s strokes comparatively speaking are similar in ways but not the same.

 

[Rosstour]

The person claiming their strikes look like Federer.

There’s many ways to look like someone

My FH “looks like” Thiem’s, because I drop my off arm to the side of my body rather than tucking it in like almost every other player. Just one example, and it’s not the whole shot

 

[USPTARF97]

There’s many ways to look like someone

My FH “looks like” Thiem’s, because I drop my off arm to the side of my body rather than tucking it in like almost every other player. Just one example, and it’s not the whole shot

You must be one of those pros telling people they look like Federer.

 

[USPTARF97]

There’s many ways to look like someone

My FH “looks like” Thiem’s, because I drop my off arm to the side of my body rather than tucking it in like almost every other player. Just one example, and it’s not the whole shot

One particular element of a swing doesn’t mean your forehand looks like Thiem. Send us some video.

 

[Rosstour]

One particular element of a swing doesn’t mean your forehand looks like Thiem. Send us some video.

That’s why I put it in quotes

Some ppl are constantly searching out similarities and common denominators, I’m definitely one of those people

1

Post in thread 'Made my own thread bc my phone can't navigate the main one...apologies'

Jan 3, 2025

Ok I got something up. It's not great play from me until later on. The video stops with me up 5-0, because he thought it was 5-2 and I needed the evidence.

So if you just want to see me looking good then watch the last 10-12 minutes

He captured another 5 minutes after that, but then the phone ran out of memory so the end of the set and the TB didn't get recorded.

@Curious watch my feet and especially the hips in relation to the ground

@gino check my gear

@10sbeast888 check my back foot on the groundies

@Chas Tennis check my back foot on the serve...

• 10sbeast888

• 

 

[USPTARF97]

You might want to go watch some video of Thiem. He finishes both hands together and much of the time catches the racquet with his left hand. Only time his hands finish apart is when he hits the ball late and is buggy whipping it. Thiem took the ball extremely early which took him to the top of the game. You’re dreaming, but that’s fun as well. Nothing there in any way looks like Thiem.

 

[Rosstour]

You might want to go watch some video of Thiem. He finishes both hands together and much of the time catches the racquet with his left hand. Thiem took the ball extremely early which took him to the top of the game. You’re dreaming, but that’s fun as well.

I think his game is ugly as fawk so if you really want to insult me you’re going the wrong direction

Just saying that traits can create a resemblance. Shrug

 

[USPTARF97]

I think his game is ugly as fawk so if you really want to insult me you’re going the wrong direction

Just saying that traits can create a resemblance. Shrug

No way anyone would look at that and think, “he looks like Thiem” not trying to insult you but this is my point exactly.

 

[Spielgame]

Maybe they figured out that they needed to massage your ego to get you to spend money.

I have been told by 3 different coaches that my hitting style is smooth like Federer.

That is true, though.

Yep, Robert Federer.

 

[johnmccabe]

No way anyone would look at that and think, “he looks like Thiem” not trying to insult you but this is my point exactly.

Everyone has their own definition of 'looking like'. Apparently your standard is very high. But look like means very little.

Tennis level difference is enormous. This is a dead horse beaten a thousand times. It's well-known. Some okay 5.0's ceiling is like the basement of real top juniors. A decent college player may never get remotely close to a top 500 pro.

It's so much broader than the look of the strokes.

Here is a Federer copy that never shows any match. If the look is so important, he would be in top 10 ATP and Felix AA would easily be top 5.

Takuya Komura

Japanese Tennis Player 宮崎県出身 日本ランク最高48位 ATP兵庫NOAH challenger 予選出場 インターハイベスト4 高校日本4位 大学日本8位 ニッケ全日本選手権ダブルスベスト16 使用ラケット　Wilson prostaff97 グリップ　semi western grip 使用ガット　natural gut✖️Alu power

youtube.com

 

[Rosstour]

No way anyone would look at that and think, “he looks like Thiem” not trying to insult you but this is my point exactly.

Obviously I suck and have an ugly game dude that isn’t the point

And yes you are being insulting, first to the other guy and now to me. I’m sure your stuff looks much better, so maybe you could post it and give us something slightly more realistic to emulate.

 

[sureshs]

I have heard that's not the only thing on you that's smooth.

I see that @Shroud has liked this.

If you are not smooth, try this:

 

[nyta2]

Was recently asked to do an evaluation at a new/prospective club who just hired a new provider. My daughter does camp there, and one of the coaches clocked my build when I picked her up and asked if I was a player. They have beginner, intermediate and advanced clinics and asked me some questions. We were sort of on the bubble, so he just told me to come by for a brief rating drill.

I didn’t think it went that well—was rusty from not playing all summer due to injuries, and nervous as I haven’t taken a lesson in years. The head coach was also watching and he has a heavy Thor/Khal Drogo vibe so it was a tad intimidating. I hit every overhead off the top of the racquet, missed half my backhands long and a few FHs in the net.

But at the end, their conclusion was that I needed to be in the advanced clinic. Was surprising since I consider advanced to be solid 4.5 and up, and around 7 UTR give or take. I self-rate NTRP 4.0 and have a 5.5 UTR.

Does this make sense? I’m happy to embrace the challenge and a little flattered, but surprised and hoping it’s not a waste of time. Any thoughts? @10sbeast888 @Curious @ballmachineguy @Shroud

really depends on the club, and sometimes just the day/time/etc... (within the same club).
i've been to clubs where "advanced" was low-4.0, and i was by far the best...
and been to clubs where "advanced" was an "invite only" thing, and everyone was ex-college (with a couple back-from-school college players on occasion), and i was the worst player by far (this happened to also be a "friday lunch time only" where at the same club they also had the "publicly advertised" "advanced" clinic that was the typical 4.0-low4.5 adult 7p weekday crowd)

 

[USPTARF97]

Obviously I suck and have an ugly game dude that isn’t the point

And yes you are being insulting, first to the other guy and now to me. I’m sure your stuff looks much better, so maybe you could post it and give us something slightly more realistic to emulate.

Comparing your game to Thiem a former #1 player in the world who was an absolute beast sort of opens your self up to a bit a scrutiny. My game is from the era where big serve, big forehand, one handed backhand, slice backhand and transition game with solid volleys was the norm. If I started claiming my game is like Federer’s would expect you guys to laugh me out of the park. I was collegiate all-American and played open level tennis for 15yrs. Play 5.0 now and hoping to play 4.5 soon. I make no claims about looking like Federer especially having seen that up close.
My point was that comparing any of our games to the top players in the world and especially Federer is a bit of a stretch.

 

[USPTARF97]

I’m thinking many people are not aware of the difference between average recreational players and the best players in the world.

 

[Rosstour]

Comparing your game to Thiem a former #1 player in the world who was an absolute beast sort of opens your self up to a bit a scrutiny.

But I didn’t compare my game to his. Just one thing on the FH that isn’t actually good/desirable. You are making mountains out of molehills. And noted that you decided not to post video of yourself after demanding it of someone else (again, over innocuous comments). Good day mate