What is it that Stanimal has over Djokovic which Roger and Rafa don’t have?

Badabing888

Hall of Fame
When I saw the draw and that Stan could meet and did meet Novak in round 4 then my gut feeling was Stan could win. He was back to near his best post knee surgery. And of course Novak with his sore shoulder, despite getting through the first 3 rounds in straight sets. Forget head to head for now which Novak leads; he’s now lost 4 big grand slam matches v Stan, 2 in the final of course. It’s like Stan is Novak’s kryptonite. Winning those 4 Slams, which he lost to Stan and he would be on 20 and also a double career slam winner.

Something about Novak’s game that brings out the best in Stan? Definitely the rhythm Novak gives Stan, but also Stan’s backhand. Novak just seems to give him the same ball or height on that side to crush balls deep and winners; take control of rallies. Roger and Rafa rarely do and mix it up much better v Stan.

What are your thoughts?
 

Badabing888

Hall of Fame
Stan is in Novak’s head. At this level, 99% is mental.
Fed owns Murray
Novak owns Fed
Rafa owns Fed
Stan owns Novak
Yeah I get that but why is he in Novak’s head? What is it specifically about Stan’s game that Novak can’t handle or why Novak can’t change up like Roger or Rafa does v Stan?
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
I felt Stan in reasonable form had a good chance vs this Novak. Stan's backhand is definitely a big weapon against Novak. He also gets into a good rhythm against Novak and can play with him from the baseline. His confidence too helps, shows no fear. He is a problem for Novak in the GS, no doubt.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
I always had the feeling that Wawrinka's style should potentially hurt Djokovic, even before he actually started beating him in slams. Wawrinka really enjoy the flat shots which Djokovic keeps hitting to his backhand. Also, let's not underrate his forehand which is a powerful shot too. His serve and return are also working well against Djokovic.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
You mean "What is that Rafa has over Djokovic that Wawrinka doesn't have?"

Nadal has better numbers against Djokovic than Wawrinka.

Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open).

Wawrinka is 4-4 against Djokovic in the H2H in Grand Slams.

9-6 >>>> 4-4.
 
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StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
You mean "What is that Rafa has over Djokovic that Wawrinka doesn't have?"

Nadal has better numbers against Djokovic than Wawrinka.

Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open).

Wawrinka is 4-4 against Djokovic in the H2H in Grand Slams. Also, Wawrinka only leads Djokovic at the US Open, while Nadal leads Djokovic both at Roland-Garros and the US Open.

9-6 >>>> 4-4.
When exactly did Djokovic beat Wawrinka at RG to even the head to head there?
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
When I saw the draw and that Stan could meet and did meet Novak in round 4 then my gut feeling was Stan could win. He was back to near his best post knee surgery. And of course Novak with his sore shoulder, despite getting through the first 3 rounds in straight sets. Forget head to head for now which Novak leads; he’s now lost 4 big grand slam matches v Stan, 2 in the final of course. It’s like Stan is Novak’s kryptonite. Winning those 4 Slams, which he lost to Stan and he would be on 20 and also a double career slam winner.

Something about Novak’s game that brings out the best in Stan? Definitely the rhythm Novak gives Stan, but also Stan’s backhand. Novak just seems to give him the same ball or height on that side to crush balls deep and winners; take control of rallies. Roger and Rafa rarely do and mix it up much better v Stan.

What are your thoughts?
there've been rumors that when Novak and Stan play in practice, if you didn't know who is who, you would easily confuse the 2, as Stan tends to blow Novak of the court.
However, it was very different in official matches.
Perhaps Stan gets a bit nervous.
Perhaps he is a tad more relaxed / motivated in Grand Slams than in other tournaments.
These things happen. Again, rumors say that while junior, Federer wasn't much interested in trainings, however during tournaments it was a very different kid playing out there
 

yokied

Hall of Fame
1. Stan is happy trading BH CC. VERY happy. All Novak’s patterns are built around his opponent trying to avoid BH to BH CC. Stan trades and then unloads a DTL winner when he’s ready.

2. Djoko can’t read Stanimal groundies. He is never sure when the BH or FH are going DTL so he has to sit further back with a more neutral court position.

Novak can read Roger and Rafa based on their swing timing, arc, footwork etc. He just can’t do that against Stan. His preparations for DTL vs CC are very similar.

Obviously point 2 compliments point 1.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
You mean "What is that Rafa has over Djokovic that Wawrinka doesn't have?"

Nadal has better numbers against Djokovic than Wawrinka.

Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open).

Wawrinka is 4-4 against Djokovic in the H2H in Grand Slams. Also, Wawrinka only leads Djokovic at the US Open, while Nadal leads Djokovic both at Roland-Garros and the US Open.

9-6 >>>> 4-4.
Last 3 slam matches:

Djokovic-Nadal 3-0
Djokovic-Wawrinka 0-3
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Top players in the "field" develop their games to beat the dominant player. When Stan left his family and trained to become Stan 2.0, Djokovic was the no.1 and the guy to beat. So obviously, his game was retooled to beat Djoker in slams. Andy Murray had success against Novak for the same reason.

It's not Rocket Science. Novak is on borrowed time, because all the Next Gen are tooling their games to beat him. Once the develop consistency in slams (like Medvedev may do) then his slam winning gravy train might come to a sudden halt.

Wheras the "field" don't train specifically to take out Nadal or Federer, so they may benefit.
 

TU87

Rookie
Stan hits a bit more power especially on the serve and backhand than Federer and Nadal. Plus Stan plays the down the line backhand more often. Difficult for Novak. Federer and Nadal’s patterns play more into Djokovic’s game.High Power game is always problematic for Djokovic.
 

Enga

Hall of Fame
Upperbody strength I think. He can hit with consistent depth no matter what he gets from his opponent, even while hitting on the rise. If the ball is anywhere near him he can smack it hard with torso strength. Federer and Nadal are more about that leverage and foot speed, while Wawrinka is about the strength I think. His style works well against a counterpuncher like Djokovic because Djoko is looking to put his opponent in uncomfortable positions with placement, creating awkward angles but Wawrinka just hits with power and depth down the middle, until Djoko hits a slow one and then Wawrinka steps up and smacks it for a winner or forced error.
 

K-H

Hall of Fame
1) Stans power
This means djokovic can't always step up into the court as often as he gets pushed back. Also due to the fact Stan has so much power, it's hard for Djokovic to hit the ball back as he'd like and to hit with angles etc.

2) No real weakenses to attack.
Stan can go FH to FH or BH to BH with Djokovic. Not many can. Fed has a weaker BH than djokovic BH. Nadal has a weaker BH than Novak FH.
There's no where really safe on the court
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Not much. Just bad timing of when they have played. Djokovic hits the ball atleast as early as Fed does. People should Look also at their overall h2h. Pretty big numbers for Nole.
 

robthai

Hall of Fame
You mean "What is that Rafa has over Djokovic that Wawrinka doesn't have?"

Nadal has better numbers against Djokovic than Wawrinka.

Nadal leads the H2H over Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (including 2-1 at the US Open).

Wawrinka is 4-4 against Djokovic in the H2H in Grand Slams.

9-6 >>>> 4-4.
Rafa can thank his beloved clay for all his h2h stats. Especially his slam h2h. Nothing wrong with that but you never acknowledge it.
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
1) Stans power
This means djokovic can't always step up into the court as often as he gets pushed back. Also due to the fact Stan has so much power, it's hard for Djokovic to hit the ball back as he'd like and to hit with angles etc.

2) No real weakenses to attack.
Stan can go FH to FH or BH to BH with Djokovic. Not many can. Fed has a weaker BH than djokovic BH. Nadal has a weaker BH than Novak FH.
There's no where really safe on the court
Nadal has a weaker BH than Federer's FH, yet many years this didn't help Federer
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
1. Stan is happy trading BH CC. VERY happy. All Novak’s patterns are built around his opponent trying to avoid BH to BH CC. Stan trades and then unloads a DTL winner when he’s ready.

2. Djoko can’t read Stanimal groundies. He is never sure when the BH or FH are going DTL so he has to sit further back with a more neutral court position.

Novak can read Roger and Rafa based on their swing timing, arc, footwork etc. He just can’t do that against Stan. His preparations for DTL vs CC are very similar.

Obviously point 2 compliments point 1.
That and the sheer heaviness of Stan's backhands. Novak doesn't face that from either of Rafa, Fed or Murray. DBHs are flatter. I don't know if Fed's backhand compares to Stan's for spin but what it isn't is as consistent. Stan can just keep hitting backhand after backhand and find the line with a DTL from way out of court. That upsets the patterns Novak relies on to win.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
Their head to head in the last 5 years says exactly the opposite.
C'mon dog, Rog/Rafa have played 15 years. It is one-sided, no doubt. It's really reaching to take one-third of the time they met and say the opposite.
Rafa smoked him in straights at FO and Roger had to go 4 with him at Wimbledon this year. Roger has play him many more times (and win) to make H2H respectable.

Stan hits harder serves and strokes against Djokovic than Rafa or Roger. That is how some players had success agaisnt Djokovic, more pace.
Kevin Anderson that at Wimbledon about 5 yrs back? and shoud've won but the rain delay saved Novak from a loss.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Stan just hits with more consistent brute power than either Roger or Rafa. That's a bit simplistic obviously, but it shouldn't be underestimated. Stan's groundies are so huge that Novak is often just fending them off instead of attacking Stan himself, and once Stan is in rhythm, which Djokovic gives him, he's very hard for Djokovic to beat. Obviously, Djokovic is not totally helpless against Stan, he has beaten him before in slams and still dominates the overall H2H, but he needs his A game to win.

For that matter, I think the Roger and Rafa vs Djokovic thing is overstated as well. When you come within CPs of beating a guy in a Wimbledon final and have beaten him 6? times in slams, or you only lose 10-8 in the fifth it's not like Stan is a Djokovic beating machine and Roger and Rafa are amateurs. Djokovic was just simply clutch in those matches, and a little under par in this one.

But Djokovic has also played badly against Nadal and Federer before as well.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Stan just hits with more consistent brute power than either Roger or Rafa. That's a bit simplistic obviously, but it shouldn't be underestimated. Stan's groundies are so huge that Novak is often just fending them off instead of attacking Stan himself, and once Stan is in rhythm, which Djokovic gives him, he's very hard for Djokovic to beat. Obviously, Djokovic is not totally helpless against Stan, he has beaten him before in slams and still dominates the overall H2H, but he needs his A game to win.

For that matter, I think the Roger and Rafa vs Djokovic thing is overstated as well. When you come within CPs of beating a guy in a Wimbledon final and have beaten him 6? times in slams, or you only lose 10-8 in the fifth it's not like Stan is a Djokovic beating machine and Roger and Rafa are amateurs. Djokovic was just simply clutch in those matches, and a little under par in this one.

But Djokovic has also played badly against Nadal and Federer before as well.
And this is where his backhand makes the difference. Nole can handle Delpo by switching to his backhand. That's his get out of jail card when Delpo goes through Nole with monster forehand after forehand. Doesn't work against Stan.

Re the comparison with Rafa and Roger, it's just that they don't have a 4-1 run in slams against Nole. It's a very interesting rivalry because Stan won their very first match through a Nole retirement in 2006 and NEVER won again until 2014. And since then, he has utterly dominated the rivalry in slams, continuing to lose elsewhere.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
C'mon dog, Rog/Rafa have played 15 years. It is one-sided, no doubt. It's really reaching to take one-third of the time they met and say the opposite.
Rafa smoked him in straights at FO and Roger had to go 4 with him at Wimbledon this year. Roger has play him many more times (and win) to make H2H respectable.

Stan hits harder serves and strokes against Djokovic than Rafa or Roger. That is how some players had success agaisnt Djokovic, more pace.
Kevin Anderson that at Wimbledon about 5 yrs back? and shoud've won but the rain delay saved Novak from a loss.
You make this sound like having to go to 4 sets to beat Nadal makes Federer a failure or something. Everyone knows what the overall H2H is between those two, but you'd have to be living under a rock since at least AO 2017 not to notice that Federer is changing the way people talk about this rivalry with the wins he gets over Nadal now. His recent surge in the rivalry is a real talking point.
 

K-H

Hall of Fame
Nadal has a weaker BH than Federer's FH, yet many years this didn't help Federer
It's more of a question who exploits whose weaknesses more.

Nadal was able to attack feds BH with his FH more often and better than fed was able to attack nadals BH.
 

ibbi

Legend
I think brute power is definitely one aspect, and I think his ability to easily trade backhands with him is the other. The underdog status he always has no matter how many times he beats him certainly has to help too. Of course it all has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Since Australia 2013 when this rivalry stepped into elite territory Novak leads the head to head 8-4 (66.67%), it's just Stan's victories have all been in majors so are that much more noticeable. Meanwhile his head to head with Nadal and Federer in the same period are 14-7 (66.67%), and 13-6 (68.42%) respectively. There's nothing in it.
 

Rosstour

Legend
C'mon dog, Rog/Rafa have played 15 years. It is one-sided, no doubt. It's really reaching to take one-third of the time they met and say the opposite.
It's not reaching, it is a fact.

Nadal has one win over Fed in the last 5 years. One.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
You make this sound like having to go to 4 sets to beat Nadal makes Federer a failure or something. Everyone knows what the overall H2H is between those two, but you'd have to be living under a rock since at least AO 2017 not to notice that Federer is changing the way people talk about this rivalry with the wins he gets over Nadal now. His recent surge in the rivalry is a real talking point.
Wow. you do live in the moment, and the past is erased except since 2017.
Yes, to beat him in 4 sets on your best surface is not so encouraging.
5 sets to beat at him at AO17 on a fast hard court and was down in the 5th set.
Yes, those two masters event beat downs did speak a lot but H2H is still not respectable.
Living under a rock, teepee , tarp, or on L.A.'s skid row, Nadal dominated prime Fed.
WT_, It is not even close to even in people's minds !! you have to be insane?
Maybe your small circle feels it even, but in the real tennis world, the numbers don't lie. ball don't lie either.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
It's not reaching, it is a fact.

Nadal has one win over Fed in the last 5 years. One.
Details: Fed needs to make more finals buts skipped previous clay court season to save his body. is out for rehab for six months before that.
sounds like avoidance.
Failed to make USO final being up 2 sets to Anderson, so Nadal had to destroy Anderson instead.
 
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kevaninho

Hall of Fame
How is Stan near his best form? LOL

He would've been wiped out by any top 3 member this tournament had they all been fit.
Clearly Novak isn't.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Wow. you do live in the moment, and the past is erased except since 2017.
Yes, to beat him in 4 sets on your best surface is not so encouraging.
5 sets to beat at him at AO17 on a fast hard court and was down in the 5th set.
Yes, those two masters event beat downs did speak a lot but H2H is still not respectable.
Living under a rock, teepee , tarp, or on L.A.'s skid row, Nadal dominated prime Fed.
WT_, It is not even close to even in people's minds !! you have to be insane?
Maybe your small circle feels it even, but in the real tennis world, the numbers don't lie. ball don't lie either.
What are you attacking me about? The last half of your post is just drivel. Nothing erases the past of course, but there's no denying that since Federer has turned this rivalry around in his favour in recent years, Nadal no longer "owns" him regardless of what the overall H2H is. Now, if Nadal were to win the next handful of matches in the rivalry then he would "own" Federer again, but there's no way you can say that with a straight face given the recent turnaround.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
It's not reaching, it is a fact.

Nadal has one win over Fed in the last 5 years. One.
well, I would like to see him even it up. As I said he needs like 4-5 more convincing victories over Nadal to put all that sh*t to rest.
I'm just being real.
Getting dominated for 10 yrs, then you beat the guy for last 5 years but sit out 1 years and avoid clay court altogether and lose in USO semis up 2 sets to zero before facing Nadal doesn't look good.
what we can all say, is this is the best men's tennis , big3 or 4 I have witnessed.
 

HuusHould

Professional
1. Stan is happy trading BH CC. VERY happy. All Novak’s patterns are built around his opponent trying to avoid BH to BH CC. Stan trades and then unloads a DTL winner when he’s ready.

2. Djoko can’t read Stanimal groundies. He is never sure when the BH or FH are going DTL so he has to sit further back with a more neutral court position.

Novak can read Roger and Rafa based on their swing timing, arc, footwork etc. He just can’t do that against Stan. His preparations for DTL vs CC are very similar.

Obviously point 2 compliments point 1.
I think theres truth to this, Ive watched the 15 FO highlights numerous times and I noticed the Wawrinka fh especially Novak didnt read particularly well.
 

kevaninho

Hall of Fame
Also, Djokovic has a massive H2H lead over Stan. Am I missing something that says Stan beats Djokovic all the time?

Im pretty sure Nadal and Fed have beaten Djokovic a lot more than Stan has.

Thread fail.
 

Rosstour

Legend
well, I would like to see him even it up. As I said he needs like 4-5 more convincing victories over Nadal to put all that sh*t to rest.
I'm just being real.
Getting dominated for 10 yrs, then you beat the guy for last 5 years but sit out 1 years and avoid clay court altogether and lose in USO semis up 2 sets to zero before facing Nadal doesn't look good.
10 years?

Rafa's domination of Fed began in Wimbledon 2008 and ended in Australia 2014.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Yay Stan!

Thanks for making this tournament much more interesting--that is not another cruise-control win for Novak.
 
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a10best

Hall of Fame
What are you attacking me about? The last half of your post is just drivel. Nothing erases the past of course, but there's no denying that since Federer has turned this rivalry around in his favour in recent years, Nadal no longer "owns" him regardless of what the overall H2H is. Now, if Nadal were to win the next handful of matches in the rivalry then he would "own" Federer again, but there's no way you can say that with a straight face given the recent turnaround.
not attacking you. Look I like Fed too, far more than Nadal or Djokovic's game.
Yes Fed has changed it up and even almost (should have) beat prime Djokovic this year.
As far as owning, I am not sold on how he plays Nadal in slams. In Masters events Fed seems to have less pressure and is more aggressive.
The Wimbledon 4 set win was not an easy 4 set win. He got the first set in a TB. Many people were scared Nadal would beat him at Wimbledon this year even as you say Fed has changed it up. They understand on a non-clay surface either one can win and Nadal is in his head, so edge to Nadal.

In slams, Nadal owns him 10-4. take out his 6 FO h2h wins and it is dead even at 4-4
A USO final win for either one will be huge in their H2H legacy.
 
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