What is "Obviously Out?"

[Dartagnan64]

So Rule 28 of the tennis code states "A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of gamesmanship."

I was playing a mixed doubles match and my partner hit a first serve that was almost a foot out. I had made an aggressive feint to the middle with the intent of moving back to cover the line, but when I saw the ball clearly out, I stopped. The returner moved up, hit the ball down the line and proceeded to take the point much to the chagrin of myself and my partner.

I told him the ball was a foot out and he and his partner merely shrugged and said, "it's our call." I accepted it even though I thought it was clear gamesmanship (I've never seen anyone make an error on an obviously out serve and fail to immediately yell "out, second serve." They only seem to take the winners).

I guess the question is what is considered an obvious fault. I would think a foot qualifies but I wonder at one point it's valid to call an opponent out for this kind of thing.

And FWIW, my partner was rattled and double faulted the game away, but after that they didn't win another game. Nothing gets me focused more than opponents trying to pull a fast one.

 

[schmke]

That rule is in the context of serves, and I believe it is primarily about returning serves that have been called out, not whether a call should be made or not.

The rule is there to not have returners return a ball they have called out only to make the server have to go clear it or otherwise cause a delay, at least as I understand it.

Your scenario is not exactly that, rather it is their omission to make a call you thought they were going to make and using it to their advantage. They are right, in or out on their side of the court is their call. Now, the timing of their calls can come into question if they wait for their return to be in or out or a winner or not before making their call.

 

[Purestriker]

So Rule 28 of the tennis code states "A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of gamesmanship."

I was playing a mixed doubles match and my partner hit a first serve that was almost a foot out. I had made an aggressive feint to the middle with the intent of moving back to cover the line, but when I saw the ball clearly out, I stopped. The returner moved up, hit the ball down the line and proceeded to take the point much to the chagrin of myself and my partner.

I told him the ball was a foot out and he and his partner merely shrugged and said, "it's our call." I accepted it even though I thought it was clear gamesmanship (I've never seen anyone make an error on an obviously out serve and fail to immediately yell "out, second serve." They only seem to take the winners).

I guess the question is what is considered an obvious fault. I would think a foot qualifies but I wonder at one point it's valid to call an opponent out for this kind of thing.

And FWIW, my partner was rattled and double faulted the game away, but after that they didn't win another game. Nothing gets me focused more than opponents trying to pull a fast one.

I think an obvious out would be a flat shot that bounces off the back curtain or a lob that is bounces out. Depending on the level of play, I have seen some 3.5's that are flat out blind. Thankfully they know it and pretty much play everything. I have never seen anyone do it intentional.

 

[Purestriker]

That rule is in the context of serves, and I believe it is primarily about returning serves that have been called out, not whether a call should be made or not.

The rule is there to not have returners return a ball they have called out only to make the server have to go clear it or otherwise cause a delay, at least as I understand it.

Your scenario is not exactly that, rather it is their omission to make a call you thought they were going to make and using it to their advantage. They are right, in or out on their side of the court is their call. Now, the timing of their calls can come into question if they wait for their return to be in or out or a winner or not before making their call.

Great explanation!

 

[Pass750]

Poor explanation by them saying it’s their call, of course it is like other calls. That bad call is no different than other bad calls and how to handle them. I would let it slide but if they continued to make other bad calls we would be having a conversation about it.

 

[socallefty]

It may not always be intentional when teams play out serves as in. I have a hard time seeing close balls particularly on first serves in twilight lighting conditions which is when we often play doubles in the winter and so, I end up being very generous with service calls. Also ever since I had long COVID, I feel like my brain is slow and I sometimes have a hard time making an out call quickly on doubles serves to my partner so that by the time I figure out the ball is just out and try to call it, I feel like it is too late and my partner has already returned the ball. I tell my doubles partners to call serves out themselves if they clearly see it out as I might be over-generous otherwise.

Such is life when you get old, but hard to complain about opponents who are being over-generous with calls as it usually works in your favor on non-serve calls. It is worse when opponents use their old age vision as an excuse to call every close ball in their favor and that happens more often as many old guys call all close serves out. But I have never seen anyone call a ball that is a foot out as in - is that an exaggeration?

 

[naylor73]

That’s high school crap there. Good on you getting focused and handing out the L.

 

[stapletonj]

This is ridiculous on the parents and coaches of those kids. I actually play with a group that has people close to 70 as well as 14 year olds.

We kid and tease constantly and if somebody blocks back an out serve and it accidentally bloops over the net for a winner,
The cry is "OUT.... I mean IN!!!" and we all have a laugh.

Why, we even sometimes return close but out serves and nobody get a case of the red%ss about it.

Even in local tournaments, some kidding around is expected, as long as it is self depreciating.

 

[zaskar1]

So Rule 28 of the tennis code states "A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of gamesmanship."

I was playing a mixed doubles match and my partner hit a first serve that was almost a foot out. I had made an aggressive feint to the middle with the intent of moving back to cover the line, but when I saw the ball clearly out, I stopped. The returner moved up, hit the ball down the line and proceeded to take the point much to the chagrin of myself and my partner.

I told him the ball was a foot out and he and his partner merely shrugged and said, "it's our call." I accepted it even though I thought it was clear gamesmanship (I've never seen anyone make an error on an obviously out serve and fail to immediately yell "out, second serve." They only seem to take the winners).

I guess the question is what is considered an obvious fault. I would think a foot qualifies but I wonder at one point it's valid to call an opponent out for this kind of thing.

And FWIW, my partner was rattled and double faulted the game away, but after that they didn't win another game. Nothing gets me focused more than opponents trying to pull a fast one.

 

[Chalkdust]

So Rule 28 of the tennis code states "A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of gamesmanship."

I was playing a mixed doubles match and my partner hit a first serve that was almost a foot out. I had made an aggressive feint to the middle with the intent of moving back to cover the line, but when I saw the ball clearly out, I stopped. The returner moved up, hit the ball down the line and proceeded to take the point much to the chagrin of myself and my partner.

I told him the ball was a foot out and he and his partner merely shrugged and said, "it's our call." I accepted it even though I thought it was clear gamesmanship (I've never seen anyone make an error on an obviously out serve and fail to immediately yell "out, second serve." They only seem to take the winners).

I guess the question is what is considered an obvious fault. I would think a foot qualifies but I wonder at one point it's valid to call an opponent out for this kind of thing.

And FWIW, my partner was rattled and double faulted the game away, but after that they didn't win another game. Nothing gets me focused more than opponents trying to pull a fast one.

1. As someone else already pointed out, rule 28 is about the returner not hitting back a serve that they are calling a fault, since this could be a disruption to the server who now has to serve a 2nd. It is not about who gets to call the fault.

2. Only the returner can call a 1st serve out. On any other ball (2nd serve or rally ball), you can call your own ball out and concede the point. But not on 1st serve, since if allowed that could potentially be used to negate return winners.

3. Having said that, most people would accept the server's input if they say their 1st was out, especially if they obviously stopped playing the point. Unless of course they feel the server is attempting gamesmanship after being fairly beaten by the return.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I told him the ball was a foot out and he and his partner merely shrugged and said, "it's our call." I accepted it even though I thought it was clear gamesmanship (I've never seen anyone make an error on an obviously out serve and fail to immediately yell "out, second serve." They only seem to take the winners).

All I can say is, it happens.

However, the rule is about hitting balls back that you are actually calling out so not to disrupt or delay the server, from what I read.

 

[zaskar1]

Its a reason i stopped playing USTA, "obviously out is in", the gamesmanship and lack of sportmanship is appalling. i know its probably only 2% of the players, but when you run into those people, it really made me wonder, why am i doing this?
i recall one mixed match when i hit the first serve up the T, on the first or second point of the match,
the opponent called it out. it was a foot in, not even close. these are young players and it was on a sunny afternoon, and the sun was in my eyes. i was very upset, and thought tha this is the way the match was going to go, but fortunately the captain of the opposing team was on the adjacent court, and told his players that serve was a foot in after that.
i guess with the bad calls, you have to remain calm, and see if it persists.
if it continues get a linesperson.
if none are available you have to decide whether or not you want to play with "cheaters".

its not only USTA, but any sort of competitve tennis

i switched to social tennis, where the bad calls are not intentional, often replayed or the opponents give the point in your favor.
it has made tennis more fun for me.
z

 

[tennis3]

I told him the ball was a foot out and he and his partner merely shrugged and said, "it's our call."

That's the rule. In rec tennis, it doesn't actually matter where the ball lands. By rule, you must play your opponents call.

Understanding this and understanding the basics of self interest and game theory, should help you navigate the "perils" of rec tennis and help you to predict opponents behavior in any given match situation. It's really not that difficult.

 

[cks]

often replayed

I hate this option. Just make a call and let's play the next point. I don't want a replay because your opponent was not sure about their own call.

 

[naylor73]

If it’s a close call like a ball definitely hitting the line that’s called out, I can see how you just accept the call and move on. However a ball that’s a foot out should be obvious to everyone on the court and handled accordingly. I doubt his female partner is hitting a 125 mph flat skidder that’s tough to call.

In this situation I normally will just stand there with the other ball in my hand and tell the returner that the serve was out.

 

[Dartagnan64]

That rule is in the context of serves, and I believe it is primarily about returning serves that have been called out, not whether a call should be made or not.

The rule is there to not have returners return a ball they have called out only to make the server have to go clear it or otherwise cause a delay, at least as I understand it.

Your scenario is not exactly that, rather it is their omission to make a call you thought they were going to make and using it to their advantage. They are right, in or out on their side of the court is their call. Now, the timing of their calls can come into question if they wait for their return to be in or out or a winner or not before making their call.

I was aware of the rudeness aspect of it but thought it also was to deal with the double opportunity. If the returner hits it into the net they can call it out or I would have. If he hits a winner he can hold his tongue and take the point. It's lose lose for the server.

If you return an obvious fault and make the server retrieve the ball causing a delay, you have to give a first serve so it's not really gamesmanship that way.

I agree with the concept of playing to the whistle so to speak, but it's human nature to let up when a ball lands well out. It was that fraction of a second let up that gave the opponent the alley to hit down. If I'd been at the baseline I'd have had time to recover from the opponents error and played the ball. From my standpoint, if an opponent stops playing for whatever reason we have a discussion and usually decide to replay the point in social matches. I've never taken a point because I made an error causing my opponent to stop.

 

[Dartagnan64]

It may not always be intentional when teams play out serves as in. I have a hard time seeing close balls particularly on first serves in twilight lighting conditions which is when we often play doubles in the winter and so, I end up being very generous with service calls. Also ever since I had long COVID, I feel like my brain is slow and I sometimes have a hard time making an out call quickly on doubles serves to my partner so that by the time I figure out the ball is just out and try to call it, I feel like it is too late and my partner has already returned the ball. I tell my doubles partners to call serves out themselves if they clearly see it out as I might be over-generous otherwise.

Such is life when you get old, but hard to complain about opponents who are being over-generous with calls as it usually works in your favor on non-serve calls. It is worse when opponents use their old age vision as an excuse to call every close ball in their favor and that happens more often as many old guys call all close serves out. But I have never seen anyone call a ball that is a foot out as in - is that an exaggeration?

Never seen anyone overgenerous on second serves or first serve faults when the returner makes an error. They always get that one right. Only ever seen egregious over generosity on first serves when the returner hits a winner. Maybe I'm just too cynical.

 

[mpnv1990]

By rule, an opponent is entitled to an out call regardless of how obvious.

 

[Dartagnan64]

By rule, an opponent is entitled to an out call regardless of how obvious.

By rule they are also to make out calls that favour their opponent. Surprising how often folks forget that little caveat to the rules.

 

[mpnv1990]

By rule they are also to make out calls that favour their opponent. Surprising how often folks forget that little caveat to the rules.

Also, you’d be surprised at how many people don’t want to use the match balls in the warmup.

 

[Roforot]

But I have never seen anyone call a ball that is a foot out as in - is that an exaggeration?

I've made and received that foot out-in call... it's not gamesmanship. Sometimes nerves? Sometimes a player instead of hitting a kick serve surprises you by hitting a flatter ball to the 'T' and you think it may be out but you're just hoping to make contact.

Except for weird windy conditions, I have a good sense of where my shots would land and when I've overcooked a shot (serve or otherwise) and just play until I hear a call.

I've also been told by spectators we missed some out calls on obvious balls or to confirm that we got the benefit of generous calls. I have been lucky as I (knocking on wood) haven't had to deal w/ poor sportsmanship or eggregious line calls.

For the OP, the only problem would arise is if the returner takes a rip at an out serve and if it misses *then* calls it out. I would not let them get away w/ that. Otherwise I'll play assuming good faith.