What is required for Nadal and Djokovic to remove all doubt?

BGod

Legend
Yes Nadal will be a footnote in the anals of tennis history. :)
I think he will fade in due time. He'll easily be remembered as the King of Clay for probably until human extinction but there's no way he'll be ranked ahead of Roger or Djokovic 20 years from now. And I think Sampras & Borg will gain back their traction because they will have a more easily defined dominant period.

IMO though:

If Novak gets: 5 more majors, 2 more WTFs, 50 more weeks at number one, 1/2 more year-end number ones, and 1/2 more multi-slam seasons than he's easily the GOAT. Another Nole Slam and he'd only have to get to 20 to be the GOAT

If Nadal gets: 3 more majors, 1/2 more year-end number ones, 1/2 more multi-slam seasons, double career slam, 230-250 weeks at number one. It comes down to distribution for Rafa since that's his one "weak link" in the debate compared to Fed and Djoker. If he can get to 21 by having a distribution like 2-13-3-3 then that'd look a lot better than say 1-14-2-3
No, there's no way Nadal is overcoming his lopsided spread. Novak just won his 5th Wimbledon. Nadal is unlikely to get 2 more USOs by comparison, unlikely to get another Wimbledon and a 2nd AO wouldn't overshadow 0 WTFs which it seems clear he's not even trying to get anymore.

I think Novak could just win the next 3 (I know, not JUST but you get the point) and retire GOAT. Because he'd get next year's YE and have 7 in that department, double career Slam, maybe tied most WTFs, will have most weeks and 1 Slam shy of Roger.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
No, there's no way Nadal is overcoming his lopsided spread. Novak just won his 5th Wimbledon. Nadal is unlikely to get 2 more USOs by comparison, unlikely to get another Wimbledon and a 2nd AO wouldn't overshadow 0 WTFs which it seems clear he's not even trying to get anymore.

I think Novak could just win the next 3 (I know, not JUST but you get the point) and retire GOAT. Because he'd get next year's YE and have 7 in that department, double career Slam, maybe tied most WTFs, will have most weeks and 1 Slam shy of Roger.
I mean Nadal's no scrub but I think Novak will have more arguments to being the overall GOAT when it's all said and done. Tbh, it's kinda Nadal's own fault for being so good on clay which is what causes his lopsided distribution; had he "only" won 7/8 RG titles and around 7 HC/grass slams, he'd be viewed as a more versatile player

Man if you told me in like 2013 that Novak would one day be on the doorstep to being the GOAT I'd think you were nuts lol. It's crazy how prolific he's been the last few years
 

BGod

Legend
I mean Nadal's no scrub but I think Novak will have more arguments to being the overall GOAT when it's all said and done. Tbh, it's kinda Nadal's own fault for being so good on clay which is what causes his lopsided distribution; had he "only" won 7/8 RG titles and around 7 HC/grass slams, he'd be viewed as a more versatile player

Man if you told me in like 2013 that Novak would one day be on the doorstep to being the GOAT I'd think you were nuts lol. It's crazy how prolific he's been the last few years
Well, he showed in 2011 he could have a GOAT-type season. He was just losing a lot of Finals as oppose to winning them.

3 Finals in 2012
3 Finals in 2013
2 Finals in 2014

And he won the WTF all those years.

When he held all 4 Majors I think the GOAT probability went pretty high. Many people said if he won just 2 more Slams to get the Calendar and 6 in a row to tie Budge he'd have a good argument.

So he's won 4 more Slams since then and is maybe at the same length as when he was in 2016. Granted Roger added 3 Slams himself.
 

papertank

Hall of Fame
Djokovic: Pass Fed in slam count and weeks at #1. That’s it.

Rafa: Win double CYGS and at least one other non-hard court slam, win WTF, and lead Fed and Djoker by at least 2 slams (assuming that weeks at no. 1 is out of reach for him). This I think would objectively make his achievements better. However, unless Nadal starts winning a bunch of Wimbledons I don’t know if some fans will ever consider him GOAT no matter how many overall slams he wins.
 

mr tonyz

Semi-Pro
IMO though:

If Novak gets: 5 more majors, 2 more WTFs, 50 more weeks at number one, 1/2 more year-end number ones, and 1/2 more multi-slam seasons than he's easily the GOAT. Another Nole Slam and he'd only have to get to 20 to be the GOAT

If Nadal gets: 3 more majors, 1/2 more year-end number ones, 1/2 more multi-slam seasons, double career slam, 230-250 weeks at number one. It comes down to distribution for Rafa since that's his one "weak link" in the debate compared to Fed and Djoker. If he can get to 21 by having a distribution like 2-13-3-3 then that'd look a lot better than say 1-14-2-3
You know just in case you haven't heard it a thousand times before . Nadal has won slams multiple times on all 3 surfraces.

There's only 3 slams & distribution is only brought up as an excuse to fight against Nadal & distribution was never mentioned over 10 years ago (because of Nadal , you know?)
 

mr tonyz

Semi-Pro
Djokovic: Pass Fed in slam count and weeks at #1. That’s it.

Rafa: Win double CYGS and at least one other non-hard court slam, win WTF, and lead Fed and Djoker by at least 2 slams (assuming that weeks at no. 1 is out of reach for him). This I think would objectively make his achievements better. However, unless Nadal starts winning a bunch of Wimbledons I don’t know if some fans will ever consider him GOAT no matter how many overall slams he wins.
Anything apart from more French Open Crowns + making up for ...

100+ weeks @#1
5/6 YECs

He has OGS but that can't make up for anything close to those listed above.

He's only real chance is piling up Masters , but then he'll be put in the same position that he is with his slam distribution . As he'll likely pile up more M1000s on clay , which further proves that Nadal is first & foremost a clay specialist . I emphasise the words ''first & foremost'' here as I recognize his achievements off clay. It's just that his non-clay achievements are far too behind his claycourt achievements.

Djoker & Fed are pretty much in a battle for g.o.a.t in general.

Nad's is already a g.o.a.t on clay , & racking up more French Opens to surpass (for arguments sake) Fedovic's respective slam totals won't change the fact that Nad's is first & foremost a clay specialist.
 

mr tonyz

Semi-Pro
I mean Nadal's no scrub but I think Novak will have more arguments to being the overall GOAT when it's all said and done. Tbh, it's kinda Nadal's own fault for being so good on clay which is what causes his lopsided distribution; had he "only" won 7/8 RG titles and around 7 HC/grass slams, he'd be viewed as a more versatile player

Man if you told me in like 2013 that Novak would one day be on the doorstep to being the GOAT I'd think you were nuts lol. It's crazy how prolific he's been the last few years
Actually I'll disagree with you there .

7/8 @ 1 slam +
7 @ the remaining 3

Average @ 7 or 8 @ RG & ...
2.33 @ the remaining 3 .

Which is still lopsided & I'd still view that as a clay specialist that just is less dominant in his field of specialization vs being more an all rounder.

12 vs 7/8 FO's is a staggering difference.

You'd really have to go with a spread like ...

1-7-1-6

Which would give him a FO/USO record + career slam . Still lopsided however this way it's lopsided 2v2 as opposed to 1-3 = more variety & cement his legacy on 2 surfaces.
 

mxmx

Professional
Djokovic: Pass Fed in slam count and weeks at #1. That’s it.

Rafa: Win double CYGS and at least one other non-hard court slam, win WTF, and lead Fed and Djoker by at least 2 slams (assuming that weeks at no. 1 is out of reach for him). This I think would objectively make his achievements better. However, unless Nadal starts winning a bunch of Wimbledons I don’t know if some fans will ever consider him GOAT no matter how many overall slams he wins.
Well. We should thank Djoko then for preventing Fed from retiring now...
 

mxmx

Professional
Anything apart from more French Open Crowns + making up for ...

100+ weeks @#1
5/6 YECs

He has OGS but that can't make up for anything close to those listed above.

He's only real chance is piling up Masters , but then he'll be put in the same position that he is with his slam distribution . As he'll likely pile up more M1000s on clay , which further proves that Nadal is first & foremost a clay specialist . I emphasise the words ''first & foremost'' here as I recognize his achievements off clay. It's just that his non-clay achievements are far too behind his claycourt achievements.

Djoker & Fed are pretty much in a battle for g.o.a.t in general.

Nad's is already a g.o.a.t on clay , & racking up more French Opens to surpass (for arguments sake) Fedovic's respective slam totals won't change the fact that Nad's is first & foremost a clay specialist.
It's making sense. Probably why Federer played RG when no one thought he should. He probably wanted to broaden his legacy.

Perhaps in retrospect, Nadal should focus more on anything other than clay? Because it actually makes sense that for now it's harming his legacy more than reinforcing it.
 

adil1972

Hall of Fame
Did federer cried after loosing 2019 wimbledon final

None of all 3 sports channel in my country bother to broadcast wimbledon this year thanks to cricket world cup
 
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Xavier G

Professional
They would have to surpass Fed in Slams and Rafa win more Slams away from RG.


Currently at the AO, French, Wim, USO Slams, it's:
Roger 6-1-8-5
Rafa 1-12-2-3
Novak 7-1-5-3
 

moonballs

Hall of Fame
all 3 are still playing and anything can happen so its all pure speculation...
that said as of now if all 3 died in a plane crash at this point it would be..
1. federer
2. djokovic
3. nadal
VB would argue Djokovic is not yet over Nadal based on slams. What’s amazing is same people in the same breath could discount Federer’s slams.
 

Pantera

Banned
You cannot end Year End as #1 if you aren't world #1 which would give you those weeks @ #1 that you just said were meaningless you fool.
Try and learn how sport works before posting. YE1 all that matters. Federer of course not been good enough to be YE1 in the Nadal and Djokovic era.
 

Pantera

Banned
Your getting confused with Nadal who has never beaten djokovic at AO and not won AO or Wimbledon in 10 years and has never won the WTF as he can't handle 8 good players in a drW and can only handle 1 good player in a final or at best 2 good players 1 sf and 1 f

Nadal may never beat Djokovic or fed on grass or hard court ever again. Over 10 years since done both... Or technically never beaten djokovic on grass
Erm Nadal has beaten djokovic twice on grass...dude may i ask do u actually follow tennis? Seriously.

And 2013 dude nadal beat novak on HC twice...thats like 6 years not 10 and 3 of them Djokovic was struggling so didnt make it far enough to face Rafa. As for Federer he always loses early so saves himself from a schooling by Nadal at USO . Same will happen this year. 0-0 is success for Federer lol
 

Pantera

Banned
VB would argue Djokovic is not yet over Nadal based on slams. What’s amazing is same people in the same breath could discount Federer’s slams.
Nadal has the most complete resume hence is GOAT..Djokovic a close 2nd...federer a weak ear champ sadly.
 
Erm Nadal has beaten djokovic twice on grass...dude may i ask do u actually follow tennis? Seriously.

And 2013 dude nadal beat novak on HC twice...thats like 6 years not 10 and 3 of them Djokovic was struggling so didnt make it far enough to face Rafa. As for Federer he always loses early so saves himself from a schooling by Nadal at USO . Same will happen this year. 0-0 is success for Federer lol
Nadal hasn't beaten novak at Wimbledon or AO

HAHAHAHAHA your counter argument is nadal beat Djokovic on a hard court 6 years ago

Sorry lass as you said yourself in your words nadal simply isn't relevant this decade (or you chose 5nteara in another post) . No AO no Wimb no WTF and a mugderson USO. Lmao. Has beaten his main rivals like 2 times in 5 years and lost over 15
 

Crisstti

Legend
It's making sense. Probably why Federer played RG when no one thought he should. He probably wanted to broaden his legacy.

Perhaps in retrospect, Nadal should focus more on anything other than clay? Because it actually makes sense that for now it's harming his legacy more than reinforcing it.
No, the idea that winning more RGs is somehow hurting Nadal's legacy doesn't make sense to any half resonable or objective person...
 
pretty backhand

@Red Rick
Pretty much any court shot. Lets face it. Novak isn't the best player to watch. One of the reasons why Federer is still perceived the GOAT-est of GOATs is his amazingly beautiful shot making. It's a sheer aesthetic pleasure to have watched his forehands, backhands through the years and his compilation of shots still gets major views on the Tube. Even Nadal has some unique shots, especially the backhand cross courts that he takes in early , as well as the running forehand whipped DTL. Novak some how seems to grind his way to win points, splays his legs a bit too much during shot making. But, he still has his consistency and most certainly will top Federer in the next few years.
 

Crisstti

Legend
Cats are purr-fect creatures:




Any cat lover is a saint to me.
Wow a perfect cat :love:

They would have to surpass Fed in Slams and Rafa win more Slams away from RG.


Currently at the AO, French, Wim, USO Slams, it's:
Roger 6-1-8-5
Rafa 1-12-2-3
Novak 7-1-5-3
So, what I see there is that all three of them have a slam with 1 win. The second with less wins at a slam is Rafa's 2, but he's also the one with the most wins at a slam. Those numbers don't look at all worse for him than the others.
 

Mike Sams

Legend
IMO though:

If Novak gets: 5 more majors, 2 more WTFs, 50 more weeks at number one, 1/2 more year-end number ones, and 1/2 more multi-slam seasons than he's easily the GOAT. Another Nole Slam and he'd only have to get to 20 to be the GOAT

If Nadal gets: 3 more majors, 1/2 more year-end number ones, 1/2 more multi-slam seasons, double career slam, 230-250 weeks at number one. It comes down to distribution for Rafa since that's his one "weak link" in the debate compared to Fed and Djoker. If he can get to 21 by having a distribution like 2-13-3-3 then that'd look a lot better than say 1-14-2-3
The Slam record probably won't hold up for long anyway even if Djokovic surpasses Federer's 20 Slams. It could be surpassed in the next 3 or 4 generations when a new Djokovic or new Federer type of dominant player comes in and runs roughshod over the competition AND is lucky enough to not have a single rival for a good decade+ to stop him from racking up Slams.
If Federer and Djokovic weren't around, Nadal would be on 30 Slams right now. Same with Federer if Djokovic and Nadal weren't around.
 

Alex78

Hall of Fame
[Not sure if it's been posted here before]

Achievement records are completely meaningless in this case. Nadal, but especially Djokovic simply don't have the world-wide admiration/love level that Fedr does.
Federer also is probably the tennis player with the best marketing appeal ever (I know, such an absolute claim will not stand the test of time ;) ).
People will acknowledge Nadal's and Djokovic' achievement on the court, but Federer transcends the game itself. Period.
 

mr tonyz

Semi-Pro
Try and learn how sport works before posting. YE1 all that matters. Federer of course not been good enough to be YE1 in the Nadal and Djokovic era.
You don't understand as to end the year as YE#1 you need to be #1 which equals weeks @ #1 . On top of which the weeks @ #1 once you've ended the year as #1 are the cheapest weeks that you can accumulate as the season is over & there aren't any ranking points to defend apart from some Davis Cup points potentially which aren't much anyway.

So again YE#1 is not mutually exclusive from weeks @#1.
 

Pantera

Banned
You don't understand as to end the year as YE#1 you need to be #1 which equals weeks @ #1 . On top of which the weeks @ #1 once you've ended the year as #1 are the cheapest weeks that you can accumulate as the season is over & there aren't any ranking points to defend apart from some Davis Cup points potentially which aren't much anyway.

So again YE#1 is not mutually exclusive from weeks @#1.
Do you understand sport? So in your view if Manchester City spend 8 months of the season in first position but on last day of season Liverpool end up on top then Manchester City are better?

Mate, no offence, but please post stuff that makes sense. YE1 is what matters.
 

Pantera

Banned
Nadal hasn't beaten novak at Wimbledon or AO

HAHAHAHAHA your counter argument is nadal beat Djokovic on a hard court 6 years ago

Sorry lass as you said yourself in your words nadal simply isn't relevant this decade (or you chose 5nteara in another post) . No AO no Wimb no WTF and a mugderson USO. Lmao. Has beaten his main rivals like 2 times in 5 years and lost over 15
Dude..stop embarrassing yourself...go look at Nadal v Djokovic at Wimbledon h2h2 and also at Queens..Queens is on grass if you were not aware.

Nadal v Djokovic in the biggest events 9-6
Nadal v Federer 10-4

Those are not opinions..they are the facts. Deal with them
 
Dude..stop embarrassing yourself...go look at Nadal v Djokovic at Wimbledon h2h2 and also at Queens..Queens is on grass if you were not aware.

Nadal v Djokovic in the biggest events 9-6
Nadal v Federer 10-4

Those are not opinions..they are the facts. Deal with them
Sorry lass Nadal has never beaten djokovic at Wimbledon. You said your self walkover and retirements don't count after realising Nadal was crushed in humiliating fashion by delpo at USO

Hahaha your comeback is its OK he beat him at Queens.

Never beat his main rival at AO either or the tours top 8 players at WTF.

Abd sorry lass losing h2h vs his main rival. You can compartmentalise it all you want (who leads h2h when it was a full moon) sorry lass losing h2h Cs main rival and a humiliating 0-7 0-7 crushing
 
Because he has not won USO in over 10 years, he will never beat Djokovic or Nadal at AO or FO, and Wimbledon is 12 months away and he will be almost 39 and highly unlikely to be at the level he is now.
Bahahha Nadal hasn't won AO, wimby and WTF in 10 years. He is irrelevant there except for headlines when he is being crushed by rosol or brown or Mueller in 2R (4R if lucky)

Nadal has beaten djokovic like 4 times in 10 years... He hasn't got a hope of beating him
 

Pantera

Banned
Bahahha Nadal hasn't won AO, wimby and WTF in 10 years. He is irrelevant there except for headlines when he is being crushed by rosol or brown or Mueller in 2R (4R if lucky)

Nadal has beaten djokovic like 4 times in 10 years... He hasn't got a hope of beating him
Nadal always favourite at Roland garros and Flushing Meadows...Djokovic favourite at AO and W....that's the point hun...two GOATS dominate all the majors...sadly no room for Federer hence Federer the 3rd wheel. You just admitted it lol.
 

Pantera

Banned
Sorry lass Nadal has never beaten djokovic at Wimbledon. You said your self walkover and retirements don't count after realising Nadal was crushed in humiliating fashion by delpo at USO

Hahaha your comeback is its OK he beat him at Queens.

Never beat his main rival at AO either or the tours top 8 players at WTF.

Abd sorry lass losing h2h vs his main rival. You can compartmentalise it all you want (who leads h2h when it was a full moon) sorry lass losing h2h Cs main rival and a humiliating 0-7 0-7 crushing
You really getting angry lol...Nadal 9-6 Djokovic at the majors...I cannot change facts sorry.

Nadal beat Djokovic at Wimbledon as Djokovic was not injured, he got a blister. a blister not an injury its a loss of condition, Nadal was injured v Delpo, that was not loss of condition. Problem is you don't really follow tennis as you don't know the rules hence why I keep saying you need to go to Wikipedia to brush up on the game. You thought AO was on grass the other day for instance lol
 
Nadal always favourite at Roland garros and Flushing Meadows...Djokovic favourite at AO and W....that's the point hun...two GOATS dominate all the majors...sadly no room for Federer hence Federer the 3rd wheel. You just admitted it lol.
Federer is a bum now he's past it. I mean he is still beating Nadal but he isn't a contender. But as for Nadal favourite at USO LMAO hasn't beaten djokovic or fed in hc in a decade.

Maybe if Anderson shows up lass :laughing:

Nadal is not a favourite in any tournament that djokovic is playing in. But who cares about the concept of favourite you know the result two weeks after when the slam is over any way. And Nadal has 0 slam wins against Djokovic in like 10 yeara
 

Pantera

Banned
Federer is a bum now he's past it. I mean he is still beating Nadal but he isn't a contender. But as for Nadal favourite at USO LMAO hasn't beaten djokovic or fed in hc in a decade.

Maybe if Anderson shows up lass :laughing:

Nadal is not a favourite in any tournament that djokovic is playing in. But who cares about the concept of favourite you know the result two weeks after when the slam is over any way. And Nadal has 0 slam wins against Djokovic in like 10 yeara
USO 2013 ring a bell...USO 2017...… its 2019 now. Get the calculator out would be my suggestion :)
 
You really getting angry lol...Nadal 9-6 Djokovic at the majors...I cannot change facts sorry.

Nadal beat Djokovic at Wimbledon as Djokovic was not injured, he got a blister. a blister not an injury its a loss of condition, Nadal was injured v Delpo, that was not loss of condition. Problem is you don't really follow tennis as you don't know the rules hence why I keep saying you need to go to Wikipedia to brush up on the game. You thought AO was on grass the other day for instance lol
Hahaha get the small print out guys and let's try and find out terms Nd conditions to give the last time Nadal beat Djokovic in a slam. Sorry lass we're talking 10 years

And sorry lass Nadal 0 wins at AO while djokovic has wins at every single slam and tournament they both played
 
Federer is a bum now he's past it. I mean he is still beating Nadal but he isn't a contender. But as for Nadal favourite at USO LMAO hasn't beaten djokovic or fed in hc in a decade.

Maybe if Anderson shows up lass :laughing:

Nadal is not a favourite in any tournament that djokovic is playing in. But who cares about the concept of favourite you know the result two weeks after when the slam is over any way. And Nadal has 0 slam wins against Djokovic in like 10 yeara
So he is not defining champion and has recently lost hc matches to both the USO winner, finalist and semi finalist hahahaha yeah OK lass
 

Pantera

Banned
Hahaha get the small print out guys and let's try and find out terms Nd conditions to give the last time Nadal beat Djokovic in a slam. Sorry lass we're talking 10 years

And sorry lass Nadal 0 wins at AO while djokovic has wins at every single slam and tournament they both played
2019-2017......my math says that's 2 years..using your criteria if a player wins an event and doesn't face a rival as they not good enough to make the final that counts as a h2h score....(still cant stop laughing this all too easy lol)
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Nadal always favourite at Roland garros and Flushing Meadows...Djokovic favourite at AO and W....that's the point hun...two GOATS dominate all the majors...sadly no room for Federer hence Federer the 3rd wheel. You just admitted it lol.
Respectfully disagree. Nadal is not the favorite at USO. He can be the second favorite.

Nadal has only one non-clay slam that Djokovic has also participated in since 2011, the arrival of Novak Djokovic the world beater, and that was six years ago. That is basically ONE non clay slam in the last nine seasons, let that sink in. Djokovic has won more USO titles when both were in the draw and has won more of them in recent years. Nadal is not always the favorite at USO, yes, you can put him above Federer there now but not Djokovic. Keep in mind that 2013 win you refer to happened six years ago, Nadal has failed to win a set off of Djokovic on hard court ever since. The gulf is massive between them on hard and Nadal needs to show he can still go toe to toe with Djokovic. Can he beat him? Sure, but as it stands he is not the fav.
 
Respectfully disagree. Nadal is not the favorite at USO. He can be the second favorite.

Nadal has only one non-clay slam that Djokovic has also participated in since 2011, the arrival of Novak Djokovic the world beater, and that was six years ago. That is basically ONE non clay slam in the last nine seasons, let that sink in. Djokovic has won more USO titles when both were in the draw and has won more of them in recent years. Nadal is not always the favorite at USO, yes, you can put him above Federer there now but not Djokovic. Keep in mind that 2013 win you refer to happened six years ago, Nadal has failed to win a set off of Djokovic on hard court ever since. The gulf is massive between them on hard and Nadal needs to show he can still go toe to toe with Djokovic. Can he beat him? Sure, but as it stands he is not the fav.
It's not like the title in 2017 doesn't count. What does it change that Nadal formally was in the draw in USO 2015 for example? He was totally irrelevant and it was clear he will lose early. (and he lost in the third round to an absolute mug)
 

swizzy

Hall of Fame
this is becoming a three way conversation.. it might evolve over time again to be a neat and tidy nadal and fed rivalry story like it has been for the better part of a decade. novak needs to keep up this pace so the tendency to ignore him becomes impossible.. nadal needs to tie or better fed in the slam count.. novak as well. the trophies at the 4 majors will be a huge aspect..the quality of the head to head matches almost as important. weeks at number one..and the other stats will be way below the first two factors.. stats aren't as cut and dry like they are in baseball...
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
It's not like the title in 2017 doesn't count. What does it change that Nadal formally was in the draw in USO 2015 for example? He was totally irrelevant and it was clear he will lose early. (and he lost in the third round to an absolute mug)
I am not saying 2017 doesn't count, I am saying Nadal has only one non clay slam with Novak in the draw. It is simple as that. Using the 2013 edition to make Nadal fav, a match that happened six years does not work with me. Six years is a long time, Nadal failed to get to Novak in 2015, 2016 and 2018 also. That shows that for overall consistency this past decade, Djokovic beats him there also. I always seem to have to stress that tennis is not boxing, Nadal is far less consistent than Djokovic at USO, who has never failed to make a semi since 2007, Nadal IMO cannot be put ahead of Djokovic there.
 
I am not saying 2017 doesn't count, I am saying Nadal has only one non clay slam with Novak in the draw. It is simple as that. Using the 2013 edition to make Nadal fav, a match that happened six years does not work with me. Six years is a long time, Nadal failed to get to Novak in 2015, 2016 and 2018 also. That shows that for overall consistency this past decade, Djokovic beats him there also. I always seem to have to stress that tennis is not boxing, Nadal is far less consistent than Djokovic at USO, who has never failed to make a semi since 2007, Nadal IMO cannot be put ahead of Djokovic there.
Nadal is clearly behind both Federer and Djokovic as a favorite for USO, not even close to any of them. I just don't understand your argument about "being in the draw". For the winner it doesn't matter if another player skips a tournament or loses early in it.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Nadal is clearly behind both Federer and Djokovic as a favorite for USO, not even close to any of them. I just don't understand your argument about "being in the draw". For the winner it doesn't matter if another player skips a tournament or loses early in it.
It means in the battle for consistency Nadal has only gone one better than Djokovic once since 2011 in NYC. The point I am making is that Djokovic is more likely to be in the big match than Nadal when they both play.
 

Pantera

Banned
Respectfully disagree. Nadal is not the favorite at USO. He can be the second favorite.

Nadal has only one non-clay slam that Djokovic has also participated in since 2011, the arrival of Novak Djokovic the world beater, and that was six years ago. That is basically ONE non clay slam in the last nine seasons, let that sink in. Djokovic has won more USO titles when both were in the draw and has won more of them in recent years. Nadal is not always the favorite at USO, yes, you can put him above Federer there now but not Djokovic. Keep in mind that 2013 win you refer to happened six years ago, Nadal has failed to win a set off of Djokovic on hard court ever since. The gulf is massive between them on hard and Nadal needs to show he can still go toe to toe with Djokovic. Can he beat him? Sure, but as it stands he is not the fav.
Agree on AustralAsian hardcourts but Nadal beat Djokovic in Montreal and New York within weeks of each other in 2013, the last time Nadal was at this sort of form.

Nadal looked far better than Djokovic in Indian Wells this year. We saw what happened in Rome, albeit clay, but the point is Rome and IW are high bouncing courts, which is what USO normally is.
I like Djokovic as you know so this is not a point scoring exercise, but more an interesting discussion about tactical nuances between the two GOATs (imho). I feel that when the ball keeps lower, such as in Australia (at W this year Djokovic would have straight setted Rafa btw) Novak's BH can overcome the Nadal FH and make Nadal hit short which is fatal v Djokovic. The Rafa serve will never give him cheap points v Djokovic like it has been doing this year against others.

But, when the ball bounces higher I feel Djokovic BH becomes less effective, he cannot overpower the Nadal FH, meaniing Nadal has that bit more time to set himself and hit DTLF to Djokovic FH or his cross court BH to Djokovic FH if Novak switches the attack to nadal BH. It is the Djokovic FH that Nadal eventually breaks down, when he has the time to do so.

Between the two of them they are so evenly matched these tiny dynamics make the difference, they were not noticeable in their heyday as they were like grease lightening covering the court defensively, but nowadays both are slower and not quite as strong as they once were and I do feel these tactical aspects will become more pronounced in their match ups going forward.

So for me, assuming USO plays like it usually does I would make Rafa favourite if both at their best. However both have question marks. Sadly there seems rumours about Djokovics personal life which for him, being first and foremost a family man could really railroad the rest of his year, and for Rafa, I cannot remember when he last completed two hard court tournaments in a row so there is no guarantee he makes it to the end of the USO. So when I say favourite, im using the term loosely. However I cannot see anyone but one of them winning the title.

This not something I can get too worked up over, but I enjoy the tactics involved really.
 
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Agree on AustralAsian hardcourts but Nadal beat Djokovic in Montreal and New York within weeks of each other in 2013, the last time Nadal was at this sort of form.

Nadal looked far better than Djokovic in Indian Wells this year. We saw what happened in Rome, albeit clay, but the point is Rome and IW are high bouncing courts, which is what USO normally is.
I like Djokovic as you know so this is not a point scoring exercise, but more an interesting discussion about tactical nuances between the two GOATs (imho). I feel that when the ball keeps lower, such as in Australia (at W this year Djokovic would have straight setted Rafa btw) Novak's BH can overcome the Nadal FH and make Nadal hit short which is fatal v Djokovic. The Rafa serve will never give him cheap points v Djokovic like it has been doing this year against others.

But, when the ball bounces higher I feel Djokovic BH becomes less effective, he cannot overpower the Nadal FH, meaniing Nadal has that bit more time to set himself and hit DTLF to Djokovic FH or his cross court BH to Djokovic FH if Novak switches the attack to nadal BH. It is the Djokovic FH that Nadal eventually breaks down, when he has the time to do so.

Between the two of them they are so evenly matched these tiny dynamics make the difference, they were not noticeable in their heyday as they were like grease lightening covering the court defensively, but nowadays both are slower and not quite as strong as they once were and I do feel these tactical aspects will become more pronounced in their match ups going forward.

So for me, assuming USO plays like it usually does I would make Rafa favourite if both at their best. However both have question marks. Sadly there seems rumours about Djokovics personal life which for him, being first and foremost a family man could really railroad the rest of his year, and for Rafa, I cannot remember when he last completed two hard court tournaments in a row so there is no guarantee he makes it to the end of the USO. So when I say favourite, im using the term loosely. However I cannot see anyone but one of them winning the title.

This not something I can get too worked up over, but I enjoy the tactics involved really.
All good, and like your last line the most...no point getting too worked up over it.
 
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