What is so special about nadal??

[HetTheGreaterer]

Spin.

I'am goonnna heet tu da bekhend no!!??

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

I’ve never seen Nadal really underperform against them. Djokovic had 2017 and even played below par in the fall last year against the NextGen. Roger is 68 years old or something. Maybe even older, getting conflicting reports on TTW.

He's a 79 year old guy btw...
And yeah, I've seen roger and novak giving up rarely against nextgen, but never Rafa.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Nadal's dogged determination and intensity are far above any other player on the tour. Maybe Murray comes closest. Nadal doesn't give games, points or shots away. Ever. That kind of fire is hard to overcome over a match. It just wears others down.

That and the fact his FH is a unique shot that many have tried to replicate but few have succeeded.

Perhaps the best shot in tennis, when it comes to break down opponents' games and grind them down...

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

I think it has been his constant tenacity point in and point out. He never gives opponents anything, which speaks more to those like Fed, Djo, and the like for how accomplished they are to win against him.

That's about it...
He never gives up...
And I admire him about that so much..

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

djoker and fed both think these next gen muppets aren't worthy of witnessing their true level of tennis every time so they tank

Roflmao....
Yeah it can happen, especially against djoker who happens to come out of coffin and make it a fight if it's a match against fedal...

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Rafa brings a higher level of intensity against everyone, not just the top dogs. Fred and Joker are also more likely to have mental lapses, where as Rafa is more focused. The young guns are able to sneak wins against the other 2 here and there simply because they let their guard down more often.

Possibly..

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Tsitsipas said earlier this year that Nadal is the type of player that makes you play bad and he's not wrong. He's as close as one gets to "The Anti-tennis" if there ever is one. His spin disrupts your usual hitting rhythm and causes timing problems. Despite his defensive style he always runs you from side to side so you're always hitting off balance. He get everything back until you eventually lose focus. His variety is also underrated, in that he can vary the amount of spin on his shots and mix things up by slicing and utilizing dropshots. Basically you never get a shot 100% in your hitting zone and pressure to hit the spots builds up.

Never lets you settle....

Looks like company oneplus got their quote from Nadal..

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Because he is the Bull.
You don't mess with the Bull unless you have bad blood!

Still..
Apart from one or two nextgen guys, none can even make it a match against him

 

[Fedr and three others]

He could be 0-5 0-40 down and he'd still not let you have an easy point because he genuinely thinks he can still win the set.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

He could be 0-5 0-40 down and he'd still not let you have an easy point because he genuinely thinks he can still win the set.

Exactly...
Check the match against fognini this year at MC..

 

[UnderratedSlam]

Hey man....
You're taking it in a wrong way..
What I meant to say was, almost every player has an awful record against all of big3, not just against nadal...
But their struggles are the most against rafa....

Why did I need to explain this???!

Have you got actual stats to back up your claim? Because it doesn't sound correct.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Yes, Rafa's a lefty who hits his forehand with a lot of topspin. Yes, Rafa has an almost freakish intensity level. But, it feels as if many here don't respect how great an all-around tennis player he is, as if they need an excuse to explain how special he is

You don't earn your way into a discussion of being the greatest player in the Open Era without being a special player and competitor. Period. Outside of his serve...which has probably been just above average over the course of his career...he is exceptional at every other phase of the game.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Have you got actual stats to back up your claim? Because it doesn't sound correct.

Well...
It is evident from nextgen's record against big3

 

[weakera]

Star struck as most of the next gen grew up with Rafa as their favorite player.

 

[junior74]

 

[Rubens]

12 RG titles and owned Fed for a few years.
Otherwise he's pretty ordinary.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

Well...
It is evident from nextgen's record against big3

Is it though?

Present us with H2H stats.

Not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to analyze the stats.

 

[donquijote]

 

[Ray Mercer]

Yes, Rafa's a lefty who hits his forehand with a lot of topspin. Yes, Rafa has an almost freakish intensity level. But, it feels as if many here don't respect how great an all-around tennis player he is, as if they need an excuse to explain how special he is

You don't earn your way into a discussion of being the greatest player in the Open Era without being a special player and competitor. Period. Outside of his serve...which has probably been just above average over the course of his career...he is exceptional at every other phase of the game.

His serve is far inferior to that of Federer and Sampras who are of equal height. The serve is one of the hardest technical aspects of tennis to master. Nadal is also an inferior returner as he cannot position himself like Federer and a Djokovic on the baseline. He has to stand 20 feet back to return in order to give himself time. Nadal would get smoked on carpet or ultra fast hardcourt of previous eras. Nadal is a phenomenal player but he’s a very average fast court player.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Is it though?

Present us with H2H stats.

Not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to analyze the stats.

please find records of Tsitsipas, Zverev etc nextgenners & nishi, dimi etc lostgenners against nadal on the atptour website

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Rafa isn’t so creepy, he isnt turning up in dreams next to your eyes.
He will stand there, right in front of you, looking you straight in your eyes. Looking Rafa in the eyes will heal you, not only past lives, but present lives too.
Special.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Crazy match, one of the best of the 2017 season.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

please find records of Tsitsipas, Zverev etc nextgenners & nishi, dimi etc lostgenners against nadal on the atptour website

It's your thread, not mine. YOU are the one supposed to do the research to prove your premise, not me or other users.

When I open a thread, I always check my facts. You're the OP, your job.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

It's your thread, not mine. YOU are the one supposed to do the research to prove your premise, not me or other users.

When I open a thread, I always check my facts. You're the OP, your job.

Okay okay bro..
Gimme a little time
I'll update the thread with details.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

Okay okay bro..
Gimme a little time
I'll update the thread with details.

That's more like it!

That's what I respect, people taking advice rather than getting defensive.

Just make sure you use as many NextGen H2Hs as you can, not just select 3-4 players.

 

[Mark-Touch]

Unorthodox game and fact he is lefty ?

More specifically, an extremely weird/heavy topspin coming from the left/wrong side that the players never see from any other player.
Couple that with his consistency and you get the results mentioned.
Having said that, I hate his game.

 

[OhYes]

More specifically, an extremely weird/heavy topspin coming from the left/wrong side that the players never see from any other player.
Couple that with his consistency and you get the results mentioned.
Having said that, I hate his game.

what's there to hate really ? If it is rare, it is good for the game

 

[Mark-Touch]

what's there to hate really ? If it is rare, it is good for the game

I could write a book on all the things to hate...

 

[OhYes]

I could write a book on all the things to hate...

don't, it wouldn't sell

 

[topher]

Okay okay bro..
Gimme a little time
I'll update the thread with details.

That's more like it!

That's what I respect, people taking advice rather than getting defensive.

Just make sure you use as many NextGen H2Hs as you can, not just select 3-4 players.

Being curious about this, I took a quick look at this. I looked at the ATP H2H against the Big 3 of every player who made the 2018 or 2017 NextGen, I also added FAA for fun. So that's 15 players. The results:

Against Nadal: W-L, 4-29, 12% win rate.
Against Novak: W-L, 7-19, 27% win rate.
Against Roger: W-L, 8-20, 29% win rate.

Not fully satisfied, as the list includes people like Jaume Munar alongside Tsitsipas or Zverev, I narrowed down the list to players who have either won a Masters 1000 or made the QF or further of a Slam: six players. The results:

Against Nadal: W-L, 1-19, 5% win rate.
Against Novak: W-L, 7-9, 44% win rate.
Against Roger: W-L, 5-10, 33% win rate.

Two things stand out to me: Rafa wins at a significantly higher rate against the "elite" NextGen than the other Big 3, just as the OP mentioned. Rafa also happens to play the "elite" NextGen significantly more often than the other Big 3.

Another note, of the 15 players only one has beaten all 3 members of the Big 3: Stefanos Tsitsipas. None of the players have a winning record against Novak or Rafa, though a few have a tied H2H.

 

[MugOpponent]

NextGen grew up being told they can achieve anything, as long as they want it... not necessarily that they have to try much... or deserve success.

And then comes Rafa, and he seems almost like an alien to them, like a relic from Sparta.

I can't think of a quote that better sums up why I cheer for Nadal. He is a relic and a magnificent one at that.

 

[helterskelter]

I'm sorry but this whole thread makes no sense. It's like wondering why the sun is brighter than a desk lamp. At one and the same time, it points to an obviously true fact and wastes unnecessary words seeking to analyze the obvious. The reason that the new players struggle more with Bull than they do with anyone else is that Bull is far, far, far better than anyone else. Every other generation also struggled more with Bull than they did with anyone else. So, indeed, do the players the OP quotes in wonderment about. Here are their head to head records:

Bull 40-0 Federer
Bull 54-0 Djokovic
Djokovic 26-22 Federer [although some historians of moral tennis may want to check that last one for moral victories on the part of hypothetical peak Federer]

We might as well ask, "Why do Federer and Djokovic struggle so much more against Bull than against each other?" At a certain point, analysis reaches its limit, and we must just sit back and admire the brilliant.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

@UnderratedSlam see

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

@OhYes @UnderratedSlam @StANDAA

Thread has been updated

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

I'm sorry but this whole thread makes no sense. It's like wondering why the sun is brighter than a desk lamp. At one and the same time, it points to an obviously true fact and wastes unnecessary words seeking to analyze the obvious. The reason that the new players struggle more with Bull than they do with anyone else is that Bull is far, far, far better than anyone else. Every other generation also struggled more with Bull than they did with anyone else. So, indeed, do the players the OP quotes in wonderment about. Here are their head to head records:

Bull 40-0 Federer
Bull 54-0 Djokovic
Djokovic 26-22 Federer [although some historians of moral tennis may want to check that last one for moral victories on the part of hypothetical peak Federer]

We might as well ask, "Why do Federer and Djokovic struggle so much more against Bull than against each other?" At a certain point, analysis reaches its limit, and we must just sit back and admire the brilliant.

Please.
I was honestly not trolling anyone while making this thread

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

It's your thread, not mine. YOU are the one supposed to do the research to prove your premise, not me or other users.

When I open a thread, I always check my facts. You're the OP, your job.

Head to head record of big3 against some of the notable nextgenners, namely

[Miomir Kecmanovic, Corentin Moutet, Denis Shapovalov, Alex De Minaur, Casper Ruud, Stefanos Tsitsipas, Ugo Humbert, Frances Tiafoe, Taylor Harry Fritz, Andrey Rublev, Alexander Bublik, Jaume Munar, Alexander Zverev, Reilly Opelka, Lloyd George Muirhead Harris, Hubert Hurkacz, Borna Coric, Karen Khachanov, Christian Garin, Mackenzie Mcdonald, Matteo Berrettini, Daniil Medvedev, Yoshihito Nishioka]

Rafael Nadal versus all of the above

matches won - 86.2% (25-4)
sets won - 81.6% (62/76)
games won - 61.6% (429/696)
points' dominance - 1.42
games' dominance - 2.82

Roger Federer versus all of the above

matches won - 76.7% (23-7)
sets won - 70.5% (55/78)
games won - 57.5% (429/746)
points' dominance - 1.32
games' dominance - 2.46


Novak Djokovic versus all of the above

matches won - 76.0% (19-6)
sets won - 75.4% (49/65)
games won - 59.0% (357/605)
points' dominance - 1.31
games' dominance - 2.28

 

[helterskelter]

Please.
I was honestly not trolling anyone while making this thread

Why is pointing out an obvious fact (Bull's utter dominance) an accusation that you were trolling?

As a serious answer, I think the answer with regard to Federer is that, at his age, off days are more likely and if a younger player can start working him around the court, he can be vulnerable. With regard to Djokovic, I think I'd say that Nadal's style is more unusual for younger players than is Djokovic's. Most of them play like Djokovic-lite. So, they are not as taken aback when playing him as they are when playing Nadal. I think that's probably part of it. There's a fair dose of coincidence, too: it's not a huge number of matches you're analyzing and the difference might narrow or even reverse if they played a lot more matches.

 

[Pantera]

The lost gen......
The mid gen.......
Even the next gen struggles the most against this guy.
In general, everyone has an awful record against all of big3, not just nadal.
However, against nadal, they are probably the worst. Every hyped up youngster is pummelled into submission by nadal.
They can trouble and sometimes snatch a win over feder and djok, but look utterly helpless almost all the time against nadal.

What makes this happen??

Head to head record of big3 against some of the notable nextgenners, namely

[Miomir Kecmanovic, Corentin Moutet, Denis Shapovalov, Alex De Minaur, Casper Ruud, Stefanos Tsitsipas, Ugo Humbert, Frances Tiafoe, Taylor Harry Fritz, Andrey Rublev, Alexander Bublik, Jaume Munar, Alexander Zverev, Reilly Opelka, Lloyd George Muirhead Harris, Hubert Hurkacz, Borna Coric, Karen Khachanov, Christian Garin, Mackenzie Mcdonald, Matteo Berrettini, Daniil Medvedev, Yoshihito Nishioka]

Rafael Nadal versus all of the above

matches won - 86.2% (25-4)
sets won - 81.6% (62/76)
games won - 61.6% (429/696)
points' dominance - 1.42
games' dominance - 2.82

Roger Federer versus all of the above

matches won - 76.7% (23-7)
sets won - 70.5% (55/78)
games won - 57.5% (429/746)
points' dominance - 1.32
games' dominance - 2.46


Novak Djokovic versus all of the above

matches won - 76.0% (19-6)
sets won - 75.4% (49/65)
games won - 59.0% (357/605)
points' dominance - 1.31
games' dominance - 2.28

With Nadal everything is different..the top spin, the return position, a killer 2nd serve spin wise, for very one dimensional next gen players he is a rubic cube.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

Being curious about this, I took a quick look at this. I looked at the ATP H2H against the Big 3 of every player who made the 2018 or 2017 NextGen, I also added FAA for fun. So that's 15 players. The results:

Against Nadal: W-L, 4-29, 12% win rate.
Against Novak: W-L, 7-19, 27% win rate.
Against Roger: W-L, 8-20, 29% win rate.

Not fully satisfied, as the list includes people like Jaume Munar alongside Tsitsipas or Zverev, I narrowed down the list to players who have either won a Masters 1000 or made the QF or further of a Slam: six players. The results:

Against Nadal: W-L, 1-19, 5% win rate.
Against Novak: W-L, 7-9, 44% win rate.
Against Roger: W-L, 5-10, 33% win rate.

Two things stand out to me: Rafa wins at a significantly higher rate against the "elite" NextGen than the other Big 3, just as the OP mentioned. Rafa also happens to play the "elite" NextGen significantly more often than the other Big 3.

Another note, of the 15 players only one has beaten all 3 members of the Big 3: Stefanos Tsitsipas. None of the players have a winning record against Novak or Rafa, though a few have a tied H2H.

Awesome stats!

So Rafa dominates even more than the OP had suggested.

So weird.