What Is The ATP Forehand?

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Kylo Reed

Kylo Reed

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I here the term "ATP forehand" being tossed all around the internet and commonly associated with a compact backswing and racket flip. But many of these characteristics I see juniors and collegiate players doing, who are not on the ATP tour.

So having a compact backswing and racket flip can't possibly be an accurate definition of what makes an "ATP forehand" (i.e. common standard of a men's pro level forehand).

In this thread, can we clarify what the universal characteristics of a forehand on the ATP tour are? Like commonalities in ball speed, ball RPM, and of course, biomechanics of their stroke.
 
It’s just a style of hitting... regardless of level, or gender.
Stosur to me hits an ATP fh (more spin potential)
Keys to me, hits a WTA fh (more pace, less spin)
 
styksnstryngs said:
Mate, I know what the scientific method is. But this isn't science, this is linguistics. Can you give me a perfect definition of a forehand? A slice? If a ball is hit with 2rpm of backspin, is it still a slice or a flat shot? The term "ATP forehand" is used to describe a certain type of forehand that many people know and acknowledge.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know exact definitions of the above terms, with the exception of that famous "ATP forehand".
 
On the ATP forehand the swing position starts from the outside.
On the WTA forehand the swing position starts from the inside i.e behind your body.

So on the ATP forehand your arm and elbow goes straight forward to hit the ball whereas on the WTA forehand your arm must swing around your body to hit the ball.
 
a12345 said:
On the ATP forehand the swing position starts from the outside.
On the WTA forehand the swing position starts from the inside i.e behind your body.

So on the ATP forehand your arm and elbow goes straight forward to hit the ball whereas on the WTA forehand your arm must swing around your body to hit the ball.
Click to expand...

No more differences between ATP and WTA forehands? :O

What about backhands?
 
I always though it is called the "ATP" forehand because that is where it started, it evolved among the male pros as an adaption to cope with the growing pace and spin.

Funny how there is never any existential hair-splitting over why the WTA forehand is named what it is.
 
a12345 said:
Its the fundamental difference that separates the 2 styles.
Click to expand...

Don't you think that the difference in spin rates is more important? Does your definition describe it?

Also, if this difference was a real thing, the definition would work on the backhand side.
 
jch said:
No more differences between ATP and WTA forehands? :O

What about backhands?
Click to expand...
People have found a large number of types of backhands, which are common among both atp and wta players. The ATP forehand is relatively rare in the wta, and the wta forehand is relatively rare in the atp. Please stop trying to act better than people that are just trying to clarify these terms that many people have accepted.
 
jch said:
Don't you think that the difference in spin rates is more important? Does your definition explain it?

Also, if this difference was a real thing, the definition would work on the backhand side.
Click to expand...

The difference in spin rates, the mechanics of the shots etc... is a result of the starting position.

Rick Macci explains it. The racket lag for example only happens when you start on the outside. And then the different spin rates is due to different motions of the swing due to the starting position.

When you start behind the body youre forced to swing with a flatter trajectory because you must go around the body.
 
Why don't WTA pros hit an ATP forehand?

Why should a rec male try to hit an ATP forehand, if a WTA pro doesn't?

i.e. I doubt that most rec males are stronger than 5'9" 155 lb Serena Williams or 6'2" Sharapova?
 
a12345 said:
The difference in spin rates, the mechanics of the shots etc... is a result of the starting position.
Click to expand...

It can be, it doesn't have to.

a12345 said:
Rick Macci explains it. The racket lag for example only happens when you start on the outside.
Click to expand...

He is wrong because he uses a badly defined concept. The whole idea of the "lag" is based on visual properties of the stroke sequence. To be a real thing, it should be based on physical or biomechanical properties.

a12345 said:
When you start behind the body youre forced to swing with a flatter trajectory because you must go around the body.
Click to expand...

This depends on the choice of the reference frame.
 
WTA forehand: Large takeback behind the body, wrist/forearm muscles force racquet into lag position, and then the rotation of the body happens and the racquet swings around and into the ball and body rotation continues further than the ATP forehand.

Cons: Less racquet speed and pace, no stretching and releasing of muscles so no natural release and pronation (it needs to be actively done by muscling it more) hence less spin potential, harder to aim left and right and be precise, less time because the takeback is bigger and takes more time
Pros: Easier to hit clean shots and less likely to hit off center shots, easier to learn and master

ATP forehand: Shorter takeback doesn't go behind body at all, wrist/forearm is passive and racquet is not set in lag position, rotation of body happens and the momentum of it pulls everything forward so racquet naturally passively lags, then body rotation slows instead of further rotating as WTA does and the arm and racquet get released into the ball.

Pros: More racquet speed, natural release of muscles that then pronate the arm naturally and passively hence alot of natural spin on the ball without even trying, easier to aim left and right, more time because shorter takeback
Cons:More likely to hit off center shots, need to have better timing and be more precise to hit clean shots, harder to learn and master

There are a few slight variations between but thats roughly it.
 
jch said:
It can be, it doesn't have to.



He is wrong because he uses a badly defined concept. The whole idea of the "lag" is based on visual properties of the stroke sequence. To be a real thing, it should be based on physical or biomechanical properties.



This depends on the choice of the reference frame.
Click to expand...

If you start from the outside youre not using a WTA forehand.

If you start on the inside youre not using an ATP forehand.

Its possible to do something kind of in between. But as a marker thats the main difference. The different in mechanics comes after the starting position.
 
jch said:
It can be, it doesn't have to.



He is wrong because he uses a badly defined concept. The whole idea of the "lag" is based on visual properties of the stroke sequence. To be a real thing, it should be based on physical or biomechanical properties.



This depends on the choice of the reference frame.
Click to expand...
Cocky much?
 
a12345 said:
If you start from the outside youre not using a WTA forehand.

If you start on the inside youre not using an ATP forehand.

Its possible to do something kind of in between. But as a marker thats the main difference. The different in mechanics comes after the starting position.
Click to expand...

In terms of compact takeback, "starting on the inside", "pat the dog", flip, this has the components of ATP forehand. Agreed?

WtCAZgF.gif
 
IowaGuy said:
Why don't WTA pros hit an ATP forehand?

Why should a rec male try to hit an ATP forehand, if a WTA pro doesn't?

i.e. I doubt that most rec males are stronger than 5'9" 155 lb Serena Williams or 6'2" Sharapova?
Click to expand...

We don't really know why most WTA players hit a different pattern than the average ATP player. Even the development of the ATP style appears to be a matter of experimentation and emulation on the ATP tour. Players discovered they could still hit the ball hard with spin without taking the racquet head behind the back.

Most of the evidence seems to suggest that the ATP forehand is a result of a different setup and swing pattern and not a matter of strength. Justin Henin hit an ATP-style forehand and I don't believe she was the strongest woman player, or stronger than Sharapova, for example.

Most male rec players may not be stronger than Serena Williams or Sharapova, but plenty of us are. Go to the health and fitness board if you want to see video of rec-guys considerably stronger than either of those pros. No doubt we'd all bet for the professional women players to easily take the stronger guys apart in a tennis match as tennis isn't much of a strength contest. No one makes a living on tour without being an exceptionally good tennis player.
 
Raul_SJ said:
In terms of compact takeback, "starting on the inside", "pat the dog", flip, this has the components of ATP forehand. Agreed?
...
Click to expand...

Yes, it actually does. Sureshs used to suggest the WTA forehand for rec players until several posters pointed out to him that he uses aspects of the ATP technique. I don't think he dismisses the ATP technique for rec-players so readily today.
 
You don't have to be high level to hit an ATP style forehand - alot of coaches teach it now. Drop racquet into Pat the dog position - pull. ATP style forehand.

For whatever reason I noticed this board gets really angry if you suggest 'amateurs' can play like the 'pros'. They can play with the same STYLE as the pros - but won't hit as well..
 
GuyClinch said:
You don't have to be high level to hit an ATP style forehand - alot of coaches teach it now. Drop racquet into Pat the dog position - pull. ATP style forehand.

For whatever reason I noticed this board gets really angry if you suggest 'amateurs' can play like the 'pros'. They can play with the same STYLE as the pros - but won't hit as well..
Click to expand...

Thats a very common thing floating around this forum, you shouldn't hit with the same efficient and proficient technique as the best players do, because you are not a pro and that technique is too hard for you and a waste of time.
 
GuyClinch said:
For whatever reason I noticed this board gets really angry if you suggest 'amateurs' can play like the 'pros'. They can play with the same STYLE as the pros - but won't hit as well..
Click to expand...

Smart words. In reality, many amateurs have the potential to hit technically BETTER strokes than pros. Pros have to be successful on the court - their career is usually very short, at 35 it's over. The amateurs can work 10 years on technical improvements and they still have 30-50 years of the "career".

I would also say that it is possible for amateurs to hit as well as pros in terms of power, directions, and rotations. If you know what to do, as an amateur you can play the highest level of technical tennis. There are other factors that decide that pros will win against the best amateurs. The regularity of strokes, dynamics of movement, mental factors at important balls etc. will decide.

So, from my point of view, amateurs can play technically better tennis than many pros. Unfortunately, most of the amateurs prefer to talk about racquets, apparel, results of other players, costs of Bollettieri lessons, or technical details that are totally not important. My favorite argument justifying the idleness and lack of real tennis knowledge is: "...but it's Federer!".
 
The modern forehand consists of shoulder rotation, holding racket in launch position and timing swing to bounce the loop is being shortened to a drop with racket face closed the rackt face lags bhhind the hand until contact the racket face catches up to hand at contact point ensuring accelration the finish is called the snap part of the swing as the elbow pronates throwing the racket face into a windshield wipe type finish the apex of this is in front of face with the palm still facing the target the finish contiues after apex in a downward motion till finish thus the term lag and snap is often heard
 
jch said:
Smart words. In reality, many amateurs have the potential to hit technically BETTER strokes than pros. Pros have to be successful on the court - their career is usually very short, at 35 it's over. The amateurs can work 10 years on technical improvements and they still have 30-50 years of the "career".

I would also say that it is possible for amateurs to hit as well as pros in terms of power, directions, and rotations. If you know what to do, as an amateur you can play the highest level of technical tennis. There are other factors that decide that pros will win against the best amateurs. The regularity of strokes, dynamics of movement, mental factors at important balls etc. will decide.

So, from my point of view, amateurs can play technically better tennis than many pros. Unfortunately, most of the amateurs prefer to talk about racquets, apparel, results of other players, costs of Bollettieri lessons, or technical details that are totally not important. My favorite argument justifying the idleness and lack of real tennis knowledge is: "...but it's Federer!".
Click to expand...
Could u please define technically better. It is absurd to say an amateur is technically better when he is producing an inferior forehand. If I hit a forehand 90mph with topspin and u hit the forehand 70mph flat u have to consider what you are saying is indeed a joke
 
chrisb said:
The modern forehand consists of shoulder rotation, holding racket in launch position and timing swing to bounce the loop is being shortened to a drop with racket face closed the rackt face lags bhhind the hand until contact the racket face catches up to hand at contact point ensuring accelration the finish is called the snap part of the swing as the elbow pronates throwing the racket face into a windshield wipe type finish the apex of this is in front of face with the palm still facing the target the finish contiues after apex in a downward motion till finish thus the term lag and snap is often heard
Click to expand...

And its seen well here for example:


I find it so funny when so many players talk about rotating ur wrist and forearm around like a windshield wiper, and even some coaches telling players to rotate it around, when in reality if yo u have the correct technique it happens naturally and automatically without you doing anything at all, because as you explode forward with ur body the weight of the racquet gets pulled forward and LAGS behind, and since ur racquet tip is pointed down and bellow the ball and you are hitting up, as the muscles that are getting streched as the racquet lags back reach the max level they then release forward and the racquet "snaps" or pronates into a windshield wiper.. now how much or how depends on many factors.

The more low to high you swing or less, the faster or slower you swing, where you aim, where you make contact infront or late.. it all depends and affects it slightly, and there are instances where the pronation is completely passive and instances where you add a bit to that momentum or add quite alot to that momentum, but its fairly effortless since the momentum is already there, you dont MUSCLE it and pronate it around by force.
 
chrisb said:
Could u please define technically better. It is absurd to say an amateur is technically better when he is producing an inferior forehand. If I hit a forehand 90mph with topspin and u hit the forehand 70mph flat u have to consider what you are saying is indeed a joke
Click to expand...

This is what "technically better" means in reality. Me from nowhere, at 50, vs 15-30 years younger pros from the top of ATP:


Below you can see my "70 mph flat forehands" (non-optimized, last year):


Where can I watch your 90 mph topspin forehands?
 
Last edited:
WTA-v-ATP-Fh-2-2-300x138.jpg


WTA on the left, ATP on the right.

images


Federer ATP

387ee2e74d17c5194a68b21dc46e04aa--rafael-nadal-heroes.jpg


Nadal ATP

images


Williams WTA

images


Halep WTA

For right handers - ATP forehand starts on the right or the outside. WTA starts on the left or inside.
 
Last edited:
Oh, and the next question. Is this "well-defined" ATP forehand the same thing as - even better defined... - modern forehand?
 
jch said:
Smart words. In reality, many amateurs have the potential to hit technically BETTER strokes than pros. Pros have to be successful on the court - their career is usually very short, at 35 it's over. The amateurs can work 10 years on technical improvements and they still have 30-50 years of the "career".

I would also say that it is possible for amateurs to hit as well as pros in terms of power, directions, and rotations. If you know what to do, as an amateur you can play the highest level of technical tennis. There are other factors that decide that pros will win against the best amateurs. The regularity of strokes, dynamics of movement, mental factors at important balls etc. will decide.

So, from my point of view, amateurs can play technically better tennis than many pros. Unfortunately, most of the amateurs prefer to talk about racquets, apparel, results of other players, costs of Bollettieri lessons, or technical details that are totally not important. My favorite argument justifying the idleness and lack of real tennis knowledge is: "...but it's Federer!".
Click to expand...

Yeah, that incredible better than professional technique I see on court at rec level comps is mind blowing LOL

Is this a POMO sock puppet?
 
Kylo Reed said:
I here the term "ATP forehand" being tossed all around the internet and commonly associated with a compact backswing and racket flip. But many of these characteristics I see juniors and collegiate players doing, who are not on the ATP tour.
......................
Click to expand...

Google: ATP WTA forehands

There have been video analyses of "ATP" and "WTA" forehands. Some of these may have started the usage of the terms that you read on the forum .
 
The history of science teaches us that real progress can not be achieved by analyzing poorly defined phenomena.
 
Chas Tennis said:
Google: ATP WTA forehands

There have been video analyses of "ATP" and "WTA" forehands. Some of these may have started the usage of the terms that you read on the forum .
Click to expand...

The coaches on Google or YouTube are most likely passing on information that they had previously learned. I was thinking this term originated from someone like Brian Gordon who had actually done quantitative analysis of both forehand types.

I guess my question is this - How accurate is it to define an ATP forehand with a few techniques (i.e. keeping the racket on the right side of the body) when there are other requirements to generate the power and spin of an ATP pro like strength?
 
Raul_SJ said:
In terms of compact takeback, "starting on the inside", "pat the dog", flip, this has the components of ATP forehand. Agreed?

WtCAZgF.gif
Click to expand...

Raul, those characteristics are what I know to be the "ATP forehand". But as your Gif shows, these characteristics are not the only thing needed to master the forehand. I think this makes people think they can hit a pro level forehand with just these elements without working on things like footwork.
 
jch said:
Smart words. In reality, many amateurs have the potential to hit technically BETTER strokes than pros. Pros have to be successful on the court - their career is usually very short, at 35 it's over. The amateurs can work 10 years on technical improvements and they still have 30-50 years of the "career".

I would also say that it is possible for amateurs to hit as well as pros in terms of power, directions, and rotations. If you know what to do, as an amateur you can play the highest level of technical tennis. There are other factors that decide that pros will win against the best amateurs. The regularity of strokes, dynamics of movement, mental factors at important balls etc. will decide.
Click to expand...

chrisb said:
Could u please define technically better. It is absurd to say an amateur is technically better when he is producing an inferior forehand. If I hit a forehand 90mph with topspin and u hit the forehand 70mph flat u have to consider what you are saying is indeed a joke
Click to expand...


Technically better = technique that optimizes performance while minimizing the risk of injury. With that definition, technically, it is possible for a "rec player" to work rigorously at his forehand for 20 years and master the forehand technique so that it is better than a pro's. But he would still lose to the pros due to physical disadvantages, mental disadvantages, etc.
 
Kylo Reed said:
Technically better = technique that optimizes performance while minimizing the risk of injury. With that definition, technically, it is possible for a "rec player" to work rigorously at his forehand for 20 years and master the forehand technique so that it is better than a pro's. But he would still lose to the pros due to physical disadvantages, mental disadvantages, etc.
Click to expand...

Time is an important factor, too. Non-optimized techniques that are practiced 6-8 hours per day will always be more successful on the court than optimized techniques that are practiced 1 hour per day.
 
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