What is the correct call?

M

mpnv1990

Semi-Pro
I have a question on the rule regarding making calls.

My partner and I did not call a serve out. We played the serve as though it was good and did not get the return back in play. The server’s partner said thanks for not calling the serve out because it was long. I immediately stopped him and said that it didn’t matter that we called the ball good since he called his own partner’s serve out.

He said that it was their point, but I held my ground.

We agreed to replay the point and give the server two serves.

What is the correct way to handle that situation?
 
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A serving team cannot call their own first serve out if the return team makes a return in play according to the rules. Otherwise they could do it all the time when the returner makes a great return that is likely to lose the point for the serving team. A serving team can call their first serve out if the return is missed or they can call a 2nd serve out as in those cases the call is not to their advantage.
mpnv1990 said:
I’m confused. You’re saying that it’s their point even though they admitted that the ball was out?
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How can you insist on holding your ground when you don’t seem to have ever read the rulebook?
 
socallefty said:
A serving team cannot call their own first serve out if the return team makes a return in play according to the rules. Otherwise they could do it all the time when the returner makes a great return that is likely to lose the point for the serving team. A serving team can call their first serve out if the return is missed or they can call a 2nd serve out as in those cases the call is not to their advantage.


How can you insist on holding your ground when you don’t seem to have ever read the rulebook?
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You mentioned that the serving team can call their first serve out of the return was missed, and that’s what happened.

I should’ve been more clear in my explanation, but I missed the return. And then after that the server’s partner admitted that his partner missed the serve long.
 
The key point here is you mention it was the server's partner, who presumably was near the net. In recreational doubles the etiquette is if anyone gets a clear view they should call the point, which occurs often with a net opponent when the receiver is more focused on getting to the ball rather than calling lines. The fact that your opponent didn't call it is bad etiquette, effectively cheating, and then saying he won the point just because you tried to return it is simply wrong.
 
mpnv1990 said:
You mentioned that the serving team can call their first serve out of the return was missed, and that’s what happened.

I should’ve been more clear in my explanation, but I missed the return. And then after that the server’s partner admitted that his partner missed the serve long.
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Ok, then the opponent should have told his partner to do a 2nd serve if it was a first serve and it should have been a called DF if it was a 2nd serve. The serving team has a responsibility to call out balls out that they saw clearly off their own shots also unless it is in their favor to stop a point (example: first serve with a made return).

It is bad tennis etiquette for them to take the point, but I’ll need a referee to chime in on whether you can insist on a let or DF just because they admitted to seeing It out, but at the same time refuse to make it their official call. If they claim they thought it was out, but didn’t call it because they were not 100% sure, then they could weasel out of it.
 
From the USTA's The Code, point 13 (https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/sections/texas/pdf/The_Code.pdf):

13. Player calls own shots out. With the exception of the first serve, a player should call out the player’s own shots if the player clearly sees the ball out regardless of whether requested to do so by an opponent. The prime objective in making calls is accuracy. All players should cooperate to attain this objective.
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And then point 26:

Service calls by serving team. Neither the server nor server’s partner shall make a fault call on the first service even if they think it is out because the receiver may be giving the server the benefit of the doubt. There is one exception. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call. The server and the server’s partner shall call out any second serve that either clearly sees out.
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So @socallefty would be correct.
 
stapletonj said:
You played the point in good faith. done. their point.
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I think so,too. OP clearly regrets not calling the serve out and is looking for a way to get the point back. The point is over unless the serving team gives the point back. That didn't happen here. There's a difference between the serving team affirmatively calling the serve out and basically saying "thanks for a friendly call on that serve," which is what apparently happened here. It's the receiving team's call. You didn't make the call, and you played the point in good faith.

Put it another way. If you had ripped a winner on the return and the server had asked if the serve was really in, would you still think that the point should have been replayed? Probably not. You probably would take the point and move on. You didn't make the call and lost the point. Live with it unless the serving team says "second serve."
 
bd33 said:
If you had ripped a winner on the return and the server had asked if the serve was really in, would you still think that the point should have been replayed?
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You can imagine the OP making this same thread tomorrow saying he played a close serve and ripped a winner. Non-serving opponent says ball was clearly long and wants to replay the point, but OP isn't giving up the point (he's holding his ground). Who's right?

Argumentative players will always think their opponents are cheating them. Never realizing that they're the problem. You just hope to avoid players like this. When you run into them you just have to decide if it's worth listening to them whine for the entire match (and then make a thread about it on the internet to whine some more), or if you should just give them every point so you don't have to listen to them.
 
mpnv1990 said:
Look at #26 in the USTA code. It turns out I was right.
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You so badly want to reach that result that you refuse to listen to any argument to the contrary. Many of us think you weren't right and that you were just looking for a do-over to make up for your own mistake. The way you tell it above, the other guy did not call it out with the intent to give the point back. Both teams played the point in good faith. Point over. You clearly disagree because someone gave you an argument, but that doesn't mean you're right.
 
bd33 said:
You so badly want to reach that result that you refuse to listen to any argument to the contrary. Many of us think you weren't right and that you were just looking for a do-over to make up for your own mistake. The way you tell it above, the other guy did not call it out with the intent to give the point back. Both teams played the point in good faith. Point over. You clearly disagree because someone gave you an argument, but that doesn't mean you're right.
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I would not have tried to claim the point in that situation if I knew the serve was out. It wouldn’t sit well with me.
 
mpnv1990 said:
I would not have tried to claim the point in that situation if I knew the serve was out. It wouldn’t sit well with me.
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If it was very clearly out, then I'm with you on that. Even in a competitive match, if it's way out and they don't call it for some reason, I'd probably call it (unless they had been jerks or something, in which case I'd just keep my mouth shut in that scenario). But "what would I do?" is a slightly different question than "who was right under the rules?" Under the rules, my read is that the point was over unless the other guy calls It out in a way that is actually making the call, not just commenting on your lack of a call. But I understand why you argue differently.
 
Isn't this just a question of what level of a match this was? If it was an official game for money or league positions, then it's up to the receiver to call it, no question. But if it's a recreational game then it's up to anyone who clearly sees a ball out to call it, to reflect the fact that at the recreational level (i) people are often of very different levels of skill and experience, (ii) you don't want the game to be slowed down by disputes, and (iii) it's supposed to be friendly fun. The receiver could have, for example, fallen over and not even seen the ball bouncing. An opponent taking the point in that situation would be very sad.
 
Hmm this seems like more of a gray area to me than I was expecting and that most of you are giving credit for. I'd probably agree that the word "may" in the rule gives the serving team the right to take the point if they choose to. However, given that the server's partner admitted out loud to clearly seeing the ball out (he said "it was long" according to OP), that seems to be really pushing the boundaries of acceptability, by the overall intent of the rule.
 
Jono123 said:
You didn't call the serve out because you both thought it was in.

You call your own lines not the opposition.
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Not according to the USTA code, apparently. If the opposition clearly sees the ball out, they are supposed to call it. Except on a first serve, it's more complicated...
 
If there wasn’t #26 in the code, I could see an argument for the serving team claiming the point, but that wouldn’t make it right.
 
tennis3 said:
It's a question of the outcome of the point. If the return is missed, the OP wants the point replayed. If the return is struck for a winner, the OP could care less what the opposing team says.
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If they told me the serve was out and I could tell they weren’t lying, I’d have no problem giving them a second serve in that situation.

My partner and I won the match in straight sets. We weren’t threatened.
 
esgee48 said:
@socallefty is correct. You played and lost the point. The server’s partner can‘t call the first serve out since it is explicitly forbidden.
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This is technically correct, and if it occurred in league play, it would be rare for the server’s partner to comment on an out first serve. But if it’s social doubles among friends, the server’s partner would probably say something and give opponents a second serve.
 
26. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call.

Neither the server nor his partner are under any obligation to make the first serve out call on themselves under the rules. Receiver’s partner should have the best angle by far to make the call.

Calls need to be made in a prompt manner.
17, A player shall make all calls promptly.

A comment after a point is not a call. This was the opponents’s point under the rules.
 
J D said:
26. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call.

Neither the server nor his partner are under any obligation to make the first serve out call on themselves under the rules. Receiver’s partner should have the best angle by far to make the call.

Calls need to be made in a prompt manner.
17, A player shall make all calls promptly.

A comment after a point is not a call. This was the opponents’s point under the rules.
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You clearly don’t understand the Code!

The Code makes it pretty clear that if you know your own ball is out and you’re allowed to make the call, then you call it out.

It says “may” there to note the exception in that situation. It’s saying that you’re allowed to make the call when you normally couldn’t.
 
tennis3 said:
It's a question of the outcome of the point. If the return is missed, the OP wants the point replayed. If the return is struck for a winner, the OP could care less what the opposing team says.
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Assuming this was a recreational game then, if neither side knows and follows the basic etiquette of whoever sees a ball clearly should call it (and have their view respected), I don't think anyone can help.
 
PDJ said:
It's not for the serving team to make the call. You played the ball as in.
Their point.
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But he didn't play the ball 'as in'. He played the ball in a blur as is often the case against fast serves. And hence in recreational tennis, firstly the receiver's partner should have the best other view, and if he/she doesn't, then it's completely acceptable for an opponent who has a clear view like the OPs one at the net, to call the line.

Given that the opponent at the net said he was confident it was out afterwards, but said nothing during the point, he failed to apply the correct etiquette. The OP should understand that 'mistake' and not make a fuss. Probably say something like 'you should call it if you see it out for the rest of the game, my eyes aren't perfect'.
 
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mpnv1990 said:
You clearly don’t understand the Code!

The Code makes it pretty clear that if you know your own ball is out and you’re allowed to make the call, then you call it out.

It says “may” there to note the exception in that situation. It’s saying that you’re allowed to make the call when you normally couldn’t.
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You’re expecting a person 20 feet away with the worst angle to make a line call to overrule a person 5 feet away with the best angle to make the call? Unless the ball is way out, I always assume the closer person with the better angle to be correct. I might question the receiver and partner (“you sure that ball was in?”), but I typically won’t overrule.

I know the code. That’s why I knew it wasn’t mandatory to overrule misplayed possibly out 1st serves. The Code is clear you should call balls out on yourself on the other side except in this one circumstance. That’s also how I also knew a comment after the point isn’t a call.

Maybe you should stop trying to bend the rules to your advantage. Yes, your opponent’s remark was not a classy move, but neither was making them replay the point.
 
J D said:
That’s also how I also knew a comment after the point isn’t a call.
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Except that part of the comment after the point included the phrase "it was long." How is that not a call? We're letting him get away with basically saying "It was out, but I'm not calling it out," even though he absolutely can call it out in that situation, which is incredibly sketchy.
 
Jono123 said:
Or put another way: He servers and you hit a return winner. Then his net man says the ball was out. Do you agree and move to a 2nd serve?

Probably not.......
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That was my first thought too. The returners played the ball and lost the point, but had they won and the same conversation even started where the server says they thought it was out, I guarantee the returner would have argued it was their call.
 
TennisOTM said:
Except that part of the comment after the point included the phrase "it was long." How is that not a call? We're letting him get away with basically saying "It was out, but I'm not calling it out," even though he absolutely can call it out in that situation, which is incredibly sketchy.
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It was a comment about the point, not a call. Calls happen immediately. Server’s partner can call it out, but isn’t required to. Read The Code carefully and note my comments about best angles to make a call.

The only sketchy thing was the comment, maybe innocent or maybe gamesmanship. Either way, it was not intended as a call and no one being reasonable that knows The Code would insist it was.

I’ve been playing competitive tennis for 50+ years and have never once seen a player play a first serve then ask the opponents if the serve was in after the point was over with the intention of it becoming a fault, LOL. That’s essentially what the OP did, two bites at the apple.

Unless the receiver or partner call it out, a serve is in. We all know server’s opinion is irrelevant on first serves unless they choose to step in and overrule against themselves, which is not required by the code. It’s also clearly not what the opponent was trying to do in this case.

If it were a second serve and the opponent made this comment, OP could have rightfully claimed the point under the rules (though being legalistic is not how you make friends on court).
 
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ChaelAZ said:
That was my first thought too. The returners played the ball and lost the point, but had they won and the same conversation even started where the server says they thought it was out, I guarantee the returner would have argued it was their call.
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But the other possibility also holds true, in a world where no one follows the etiquette: If the OP returned a superb winner, the opponent at the net would have probably called the serve out.

This is why you have etiquette in recreational games, to even out difficult situations. Anytime you clearly see a ball out, you must call it. You can't just keep mum until it's a point in your favour. Yes, in this situation it cannot be changed. But the OP could have certainly said something like 'do you know the etiquette is to always call', or 'my eyes are bad, could you call in future please'.
 
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