What is the correct call?
- Thread starter mpnv1990
- Start date
It’s his fault for the situation happening. I would’ve moved on and treated it like any other point if he didn’t say anything.
Wurm
Professional
The last sentence is a reinforcement of:
The key things here are:
1) First serves are only ever called by the receivers (for obvious reasons).
2) At any other time the player hitting the ball should call the ball out if they see it clearly out.
Ultimately, though, point 5 is key...
...and whilst it would be nice for players to adhere to the code and call their own shots out I wouldn't ever expect it and I bet on the less scrupulous players saying "I thought it was out but it wasn't clear" if pressed.
Not that I play my tennis in the US.
I said it was essentially the same thing, trying to go back and change the result of a point that was played out correctly in good faith. You got a second chance to win a point that you already lost according to the rules. Not a cool move. Just own up to it, learn from it, and move on.
Opponent was being a jerk. Be the better person next time and just let it go instead of trying to get even.
And, know and apply The Code better. Opponent is not required to overrule you on 1st serve calls. Nice if he does it, yes, but not mandatory. You were wrong there, too.
Opponent was being a jerk. Be the better person next time and just let it go instead of trying to get even.
And, know and apply The Code better. Opponent is not required to overrule you on 1st serve calls. Nice if he does it, yes, but not mandatory. You were wrong there, too.
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Connor35
Professional
You had two chances to call it out (the returner & you) -- so you are at least equally responsible. And according to the rules, entirely responsible.
In real time, the server's partner probably assumed he saw it wrong -- since neither of you called it out.
That said in rec tennis, I would have said "That was out, 2nd serve." But you can't blame the opponent for doing what you're supposed to do.
In this instance the call is not required to be made immediately. In fact, if the serving team clearly sees the first serve land out, they are required not to make the call immediately - they are required to wait and see if the receiver puts the ball in play.
If the receiver misses, the serving team may then call it out. I agree that "may" word in the code seems to give it less teeth as a requirement. However, the code also says "The prime objective in making calls is accuracy. All players should cooperate to attain this objective." If the serving team clearly saw it out, aren't they violating this prime objective by not calling it, when they have the option to do so?
I believe that the choice of the word "may" just means that the serving team is allowed to call the first serve out in that situation (after the receiver misses the return), as opposed to the other situation (the receive makes the return) when they are not allowed to call it out no matter how clearly they see it. It isn't necessarily giving them permission to violate the prime objective.
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Thank you for clearly articulating what I was trying to convey.
MayorGorman
Rookie
Had this exact situation happen in a match with a different outcome. Opponent hit a serve my partner returned it, we both thought it was good and the return went for a winner. The opponent who served claimed his serve was long, we said no. Because we are friendly (I know a mistake) we agreed to replay the point with a second serve to quell hostilities. Four games later same server hit a serve my partner missed the, return the server said to his partner, "That served missed too." I heard him and said well in that case its a second serve. He argued it wasnt, to which I replied why is it that when we made a return for a winner you wanted a second serve but my partner missed a return and now you want the point? The point of this is you call lines on your own side of the court, learned it the hard way by being friendly.
Wurm
Professional
Vicious49
Legend
You didnt know the code either which is why you created this thread in the 1st place. Now you keep pointing to #26 which someone else posted in here for you. Stop regurgitating others words. You played the point and lost. Move on.
Also, who argues about this in rec ball anyways? It must be hard for you to find people willing to play against you.
I found the correct answer and found out afterwards that I handled it right.
It was a league match.
I have no problem finding people because I can play.
Personally if I was the servers partner and I was 100% sure the ball was out, I would call for a 2nd serve. But if I was in OPs situation after neither one of us called it out and we missed return, there is no way in hell I would claim the point didn’t count, my guess is 99% of people wouldn’t either.
TTMR
Hall of Fame
In my country you'd have grounds for taking the point, and potentially even the match. It's called "Forfeiture by Bad Faith" and can occur in situations such as these where a player sees something and ignores it for their own benefit. Forfeiting team would have right of appeal.
a10best
Legend
"We played the serve as though it was good and did not get the return back in play. The server’s partner said thanks for not calling the serve out because it was long. I immediately stopped him and said that it didn’t matter that we called the ball good since he called his own partner’s serve out.
He said that it was their point, but I held my ground. "
What ground did you actually have to hold on? The serving team cannot make out serve calls. Their eyes are not as close as yours and partner to the ball mark and even the rules don't allow this.
An important factor is ---> Was the serve actually close enough for a 50/50 call or a half-foot or more out?
If it was a close 50/50 call and you both played the point as if the serve was good then they should get the point. No replay required. The server and his/her partner can say whatever they want about the current or past ball they hit possibly being out. It's up to you make the call out, not them.
He said that it was their point, but I held my ground. "
What ground did you actually have to hold on? The serving team cannot make out serve calls. Their eyes are not as close as yours and partner to the ball mark and even the rules don't allow this.
An important factor is ---> Was the serve actually close enough for a 50/50 call or a half-foot or more out?
If it was a close 50/50 call and you both played the point as if the serve was good then they should get the point. No replay required. The server and his/her partner can say whatever they want about the current or past ball they hit possibly being out. It's up to you make the call out, not them.
The code (#26) explicitly names an exception to this: when the receiver misses the return, the serving team can then call the first serve out if they clearly saw it that way.
Yes they can, according to the USTA code.
Wow, two people that can’t read and understand the rules as written in plain english.
Just in case you thought “may” was being used as permission rather than as a possibility, The Code then goes on to specify right away that 2nd serves shall be called out by server or partner when seen out (in contrast to first serves which may be called out on missed returns). The Code could just as easily have said first serves shall or must be called out when seen out by server or partner when not returned, but it obviously doesn’t. And, permission doesn’t mean you have to do something, just that you can.
It’s scary (and a bit sad) that we have to play with people that can’t apply the rules correctly but then insist that their interpretation is right.
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And if you and your partner can’t tell if a serve is in up close from your side, how do you expect the people furthest away with the worst angle to make the call to be more accurate? A person calling a fast traveling ball from distance at a 90% angle to the line is about 5 times more likely to get the call wrong than your partner up close parallel to the line.
If you’re concerned about accuracy and the rules, then call your side correctly and accept the consequences when you can’t/don’t call a ball out. Don’t be “that guy” that turns a game into an antagonistic situation just to win a point, especially one you didn’t deserve.
I stand by what The Code says. Other team is under no obligation to call their first serves out, as clearly stated. They may choose to do that, but it’s obvious it isn’t required. You were “that guy” by turning their comment, that wasn’t meant as a call, into a call and mandatory fault, which it isn’t under the rules, anyway.
If you’re concerned about accuracy and the rules, then call your side correctly and accept the consequences when you can’t/don’t call a ball out. Don’t be “that guy” that turns a game into an antagonistic situation just to win a point, especially one you didn’t deserve.
I stand by what The Code says. Other team is under no obligation to call their first serves out, as clearly stated. They may choose to do that, but it’s obvious it isn’t required. You were “that guy” by turning their comment, that wasn’t meant as a call, into a call and mandatory fault, which it isn’t under the rules, anyway.
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If this ever happens again, the correct way to handle the situation under the rules (since you asked in post 1) if you really want to try and salvage the point:
1) Say, “So you’re saying the serve was out? Are you 100% sure it was out? Since I can’t call it out unless I’m 100% sure, you shouldn’t, either.”
2) If he says he’s 100% sure, then say, “So, do you want to call it out on your partner? The rules say you’re not required to, but they say it’s allowed and imply it’s the right thing to do. It’s your choice. Second serve or your point and play on?”
That way, you can make him look like the jerk if he declines, rather than you looking bad for the confrontation.
BTW, the way I respond to being thanked for playing an out ball is, “You’re welcome. Feel free to return the favor.”
1) Say, “So you’re saying the serve was out? Are you 100% sure it was out? Since I can’t call it out unless I’m 100% sure, you shouldn’t, either.”
2) If he says he’s 100% sure, then say, “So, do you want to call it out on your partner? The rules say you’re not required to, but they say it’s allowed and imply it’s the right thing to do. It’s your choice. Second serve or your point and play on?”
That way, you can make him look like the jerk if he declines, rather than you looking bad for the confrontation.
BTW, the way I respond to being thanked for playing an out ball is, “You’re welcome. Feel free to return the favor.”
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StoicBoxer
New User
Op is getting flak, but I can see where he’s coming from in reviewing 26. He has a decent argument. It is kind of strange how it played out though.
If he didn’t open his mouth, nothing would’ve happened. It didn’t even dawn on me that the ball was out.
But when somebody admits their ball is out, I’m not gonna let it go.
GrassCourtFan
Legend
Feels like nobody is looking particularly good here.
If opponents were sure it was out, they should have just called it (they're allowed to, if the returner misses). If they weren't sure, or realized it was out too late, then they shouldn't have said anything - "I saw it out, but can't call it because it's too late" is kind of a jerk thing to say to the other team.
But on your side, OP should realize that post-point discussion is not a call. If the point is over, can't go back and try to change it if the opponent says "actually, maybe I could have called that out..."
If opponents were sure it was out, they should have just called it (they're allowed to, if the returner misses). If they weren't sure, or realized it was out too late, then they shouldn't have said anything - "I saw it out, but can't call it because it's too late" is kind of a jerk thing to say to the other team.
But on your side, OP should realize that post-point discussion is not a call. If the point is over, can't go back and try to change it if the opponent says "actually, maybe I could have called that out..."
StoicBoxer
New User
I’d agree with you but serving side admitted the ball was out.
However, In defense of the serving side, I doubt they knew about the rule 26. I didn’t and looks like many here did not.
sovertennis
Professional
Does this country actually exist, outside the boundaries of your own imagination?
Curtennis
Hall of Fame
Fully after the point was settled.
Your argument only works if he legit called it out. Not making friendly conversation after the agreed upon call of the point.
I’ve thought many of my own balls were out that were supposedly well in. It didn’t sound like the opponent was making an official call.
StoicBoxer
New User
That’s a fair point. Would love to have this on video and would be easier to make a call.
I actually wouldn’t have done any of the things either team did on that point tbh.
TTMR
Hall of Fame
You were right to claim the point. Since this is doubles, your duty is first and foremost, to the team. In singles it's different. Youre only hurting yourself in that case by conceding points. But doubles you're only going to have a winning relationship if you know your partner's got your back.
In a hockey fight, do you ever see players fighting players on their own team or throwing each other under the bus in the presser? Never, they back their own even when their player was the instigator.
And in baseball, the manager gets himself thrown out of the game by the ump even when they know the ump is right. He does it to bolster the morale and confidence of the team.
If your opponent does something shady like described, you've got to what you've got to do to claim what's rightfully yours. Your partner is counting on you.
In a hockey fight, do you ever see players fighting players on their own team or throwing each other under the bus in the presser? Never, they back their own even when their player was the instigator.
And in baseball, the manager gets himself thrown out of the game by the ump even when they know the ump is right. He does it to bolster the morale and confidence of the team.
If your opponent does something shady like described, you've got to what you've got to do to claim what's rightfully yours. Your partner is counting on you.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Yesterday in social doubles, opponent served an ace to me on deuce where I thought the ball lightly touched the sideline. Opponent‘s net guy said I was generous with my call - I thought I saw it touch the line and so I didn’t make anything of his comment or change my in call. On another serve the same opponent hit a 2nd serve that was landing somewhere near the service box deep line - I focused on returning and waited for my partner’s call. Since my partner didn’t call it out, we played out the point. Then the same opposing net guy said they got lucky with us not calling the 2nd serve out. - this time I made a comment that if he saw a 2nd serve by his team land out, he should call it out. He didn’t say anything and we moved on, but I am hoping it will stick in his mind in the future.
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cks
Hall of Fame
Not sure what he meant by it. I have thanked opponents for not calling out a ball that got part of the line. Of course it’s silly and they should call it in, but I wish to encourage sportsmanship and acknowledge their honesty.
Perhaps he meant he was lucky not to be playing stingy opponents?
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
He meant that it was a DF by his partner that we did not call. If he saw it clearly, he is obligated to call it himself and concede the point. He didn’t do so likely because he doesn’t know the rule.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
You can claim the point per the rules.
If it’s a first serve. the server can’t call his own serve out and has to accept that you played it.
If it’s a second serve, you would have won the point anyway. But once you swing at it, you have to accept the lost point of you miss on your return blast
By swinging at the ball (and not obviously playing into the ground), you are making a call that it is good.
TTMR
Hall of Fame
That's good. I'm very pro-choice when it comes to line calls.
I don't think so, that's not in any rules AFAIK and a lot of times if its very close to the line you'll be fully committed to playing a normal stroke plus in doubles you may not get an out call till after impact anyway.
BauerAlmeida
Legend
If he saw it out and didn't call it he's just cheating.
IDK why people have a problem with OP here...
IDK why people have a problem with OP here...
The OP and his partner both had the opportunity to call the ball out if it was, neither did. They played the return, ball was out and the point is over. To then try to replay the point based on an off-handed remark by their opponent is bush league.
Exactly. The receiving team has a MUCH better view of the serve and has every incentive to call it out if it's out. The server's partner is not in as good a position to make the call. It happens all the time that there's a close serve that I think could have been out, but the receiving team plays it. I generally think that just means they had a better view of it. Because why wouldn't they call it out if it was clearly out? In this case, the server's partner made a comment (admittedly not smart if he said it was definitely out, as opposed to saying it was a friendly call on a close ball) after the point was over. The comment was obviously not intended to make the call, and the OP latched onto that to demand to replay a lost point. The rule says that the serving team MAY make the call in this circumstance (not that they must do so), but this guy wasn't making the call. If the serve was at all close, it's unreasonable to expect the serving team to make that call when the receiving team played it in good faith.
The other circumstance I can think of is the service partner's daydreaming and doesn't call a ball long; the returner plays it b/c he's expecting his partner to call that line... then it feels a little late to say, "oh it was out". If I'm the serving team and the ball was obviously out, I'll go with a second serve (assuming they netted the return). BTW, the returner can also call it long. Ppl do it in singles all the time.
edit-- BTW, it's funny but I thought the OP was also the guy arguing about the ball "sounding" long in another thread. But no they're two different posters. I'm kind of hoping we get some video evidence next time though!
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Because The Code says you don’t call your own first serves out unless the receiving team doesn't make the return, and even then you may call your first serve out but are not required to.
Following the rules is never cheating, even when it’s not the best sportsmanship.
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It seems like you are the one insisting your interpretation is right. I have never actually disagreed with you that the word "may" can be interepreted in the way that you interpret it. I just think it's more of a gray area than you are giving credit for. Any of the rules / regulations / laws written in "plain english" are constantly being intereprted in different ways even by professional judges, let alone by chumps like us debating obscure crap on the internet, ha.
You might be right that the designers of this part of the code were intending to give the serving team the option of taking the point in this situation even if they clearly saw the first serve out. But consider this: if the server's partner was thinking "That serve was definitely out, and it should be second serve, but I'm not going to call it out, because I want the point. The code says I may make this decision, so it's cool."
Would you not consider that thinking a violation of the "prime objective" of the code? That decision is more along the lines of "the prime objective in making calls is to win the point in any way that the rules might allow me to" vs. "the primary objective in making calls is accuracy."
E.T.
Rookie
Apparently servers were also calling fictitious lets on their own servers anytime the returner ripped a winner.
E.T.
Rookie
I think it’s ridiculous to expect the serving team to give you a free point when you chose to return an out ball as if it was in. Whether they saw it out or not is irrelevant. They might not even be correct in what they saw. Also, I’ve had it happen many times where the returning team plays a serve that is obviously out, the serving team has stopped playing because they clearly saw the serve out, but if the returning team hits a winner they are still entitled to the point, because it’s their call to make. You just deal with it and move on. Your doubles partner needs to be helping with line calls on the serve. If anything you should be annoyed with them for doing a ****ty job of it.
