What is the criteria for a "cakewalk" draw?

[abmk]

Hewitt was not in slam winning form and was coming off his worse season so he wasn't playing with full confidence either.

not full confidence, but the win over fed at davis cup would've made a difference , right ?

If Rafa played worse Lopez could've beaten him too, he did at Queens and Rafa is better on grass.

3-sets vs 5-sets. Big difference. See rafa's matches vs petz and haase in 2010 wimby for example

 

[Sharpshooter]

whether his best surface is fast HC or grass, that's a bit debatable. But he's certainly better on grass than at the AO. And both djoker and murray are better on HC than on grass

BUT you still do not know how those matches would've played out because guess what, they didn't happen. Roddick hasonly really challenged Fed once on a GS stage. Wim04 doesn't count he only won one set.

getting the serves back into play doesn't mean just looping it back into play ... rafa is more of a defensive returner than an aggressive one ( so is federer ).

Wrong Rafa plays more aggressively when he plays Fed and he attacks the second serve. Watch some tennis before commenting.

again, drama isn't the first criteria for greatness IMO. its quality.

So someone could go to their local tennis courts and play a very high quality match. What does it matter when nobody cares who wins?

LIke I said, you and I have different opinions, it's best we drop that because I'll never change your mind and you'll never change mine. There's no right or wrong.

so nadal can't play defensively for a set and half and still win ? LOL in which la la land are you in ? :lol;

He wasn't winning in the first set and he came out more aggressively towards the end of the first and at the beginning of the second set, not half way through. Go watch it.

yes, I watched it you clueless fella. the only time youzhny seemed tried to play real aggressively was in the middle of the first set and towards the end of the 3rd set

Seemed being the key word there pal. Rafa had a little lapse in the third set and YOuzhny was of course going to come out and try his best but really Rafa's level was too high for him that day and that made it look like he was a walkover.

he was off at that WTF , I know that .

But it is amusing to read someone who can't calculate forced errors from the winners/UE/total points data and someone who hasn't watched a match ( AO 2007 F) and goes on BS about it, accuse someone else of only picking data from wikipedia.

Get me ONE close match that djoker won against rafa ! even queens 2008, when he was playing probably the best GC tennis he has so far, he lost another close match ( I know it wasn't that important and it wasn't on HC, but yet another match where djoker couldn't get it done when it was close vs rafa ) ...

Mate Rafa owns Djoko on grass and clay, only sometimes he gives him a real challenge. YOu don't compare those matches because they are irrelevant to the USO match up. YOu can only go off HC results and the only one that mattered that Rafa won was olympics and that went the distance. It was close. He was the bigger threat to Rafa no doubt about it. Fed doesn't beat Rafa in slam finals, not since 2007 3.5 years ago and even that he barely won.

NO, he put up a fight for only half a set , that's it. It was all cr*p after that

And tell me which set Delpo put up any fight against Fed? Oh that's right he didn't! He put up n resistance at ALL. Verdy was clearly tougher. He played well in the windy conditions which were very bad for his style of game, what conditions did Delpo deal with that put his game way off? NONE! He just didn't turn up that night.

yes, obviously CC has more margin for error than DTL, I am very well aware of that

Than obviously Djoko's BH is what gets the job done against him.

didn't say berdych wasn't hot in wim 2010. Just that he didn't play anywhere close to what he is capable of in the finals.

He hasn't taken a single set of Rafa in years and you expect him to come out all guns blazing in his first ever major final? Having said that he did get close in the second set and almost got the break in the third so he didn't play too bad, he just didn't hold his nerve in the latter stages of each set.

 

[Sharpshooter]

djoker does not take the ball on the rise as much or as well as davydenko. But again, I don't expect anything better than this from you !

No he doesn't, I'll agree with that, but he hit more winners and had less UE's so therefore he played better in the USO final than Davy did in the QF who had a negative 18 ratio in the W/UE's count.

why did you accuse me of making it up then ? Give it up, you liar !!!

I wasn't confident in your abilities to calculate them.

yes, verdy played worse. fed played MUCH better in the roddick match than rafa did in the verdasco match, which is why roddick ended up with lesser no of games . The only resistance verdy put up was the first half of the first set . Nothing else after that ! even roddick broke federer once ...

Verdy broke Rafa too so what? Does Roddick breaking Fed once mean more than Verdy breaking Rafa? He played shi.t, he still wouldn't have won had he played better but he could've played a lot better. The Roddick serve isn't that easy to break and Fed did it with ease all night. When Roddick's serving isn't working it's lights out for him. Verdy played better.

of course, it wasn't just because of putting the back into play. It was because federer was serving cr*p, he wasn't playing that well off the ground as say in the 2nd and 4th sets and rafa was playing well off the ground.

And he served crap because of the pressure Rafa puts on him, my point all along. 3 breaks in the first set is what set the tone for Fed and he felt more pressured to get the first serves in and that's why it dropped heavily in the second. Had Rafa not gone conservative in the second set, he probably would've won it.

no, its about both power and placement. I've made posts earlier about importance of placement of returns before this as well. I'll get them if I can.

there are others who are better at attacking the fed serve than nadal is. nadal breaks him more than probably anyone else because he's mentally tougher than the others and is better off the ground than anyone else and is the worst possible matchup for fed

And because he attacks the second serve which gives him the chance to control the points on the Fed serve.

 

[abmk]

BUT you still do not know how those matches would've played out because guess what, they didn't happen. Roddick hasonly really challenged Fed once on a GS stage. Wim04 doesn't count he only won one set.

challenging doesn't necessarily mean taking a player to five sets. But whatever suits your boat :roll:

Wrong Rafa plays more aggressively when he plays Fed and he attacks the second serve. Watch some tennis before commenting.

returns more more aggressively when compared to his own play against others. yes, to an extent .. close to say nalbandian, davydenko or djoker ? HELL NO !

So someone could go to their local tennis courts and play a very high quality match. What does it matter when nobody cares who wins?

LIke I said, you and I have different opinions, it's best we drop that because I'll never change your mind and you'll never change mine. There's no right or wrong.

yes, because amateur players can play at the level of pros :roll:. I said it was the first thing, not the only one that constituted a great match

Anyways I'll let this go !

He wasn't winning in the first set and he came out more aggressively towards the end of the first and at the beginning of the second set, not half way through. Go watch it.

Seemed being the key word there pal. Rafa had a little lapse in the third set and YOuzhny was of course going to come out and try his best but really Rafa's level was too high for him that day and that made it look like he was a walkover.

umm, no ... rafa played brilliantly but youzhny was capable of playing better than he did

Mate Rafa owns Djoko on grass and clay, only sometimes he gives him a real challenge. YOu don't compare those matches because they are irrelevant to the USO match up. YOu can only go off HC results and the only one that mattered that Rafa won was olympics and that went the distance. It was close. He was the bigger threat to Rafa no doubt about it. Fed doesn't beat Rafa in slam finals, not since 2007 3.5 years ago and even that he barely won.

and djoker doesn't beat rafa anywhere in a slam, can barely take sets off him. can't win one match when it really matters, can't win when it gets close .atleast fed can take rafa playing darn darn well to 5 sets ( even making a comeback from 2 sets down ).

And tell me which set Delpo put up any fight against Fed? Oh that's right he didn't! He put up n resistance at ALL. Verdy was clearly tougher. He played well in the windy conditions which were very bad for his style of game, what conditions did Delpo deal with that put his game way off? NONE! He just didn't turn up that night.

wasn't verdy hitting through the wind for half a set ? what happened all of a sudden ? huge drop in level and he started playing cr*p. not much of a difference in the matches IMO ... eitherways neither played that you can defend them on the basis of their ranking !

Than obviously Djoko's BH is what gets the job done against him.

not necessarily. Because a shot is tougher doesn't mean it is the one which gets the job done against the player,it also depends on how many times it is executed and how many times it comes off

He hasn't taken a single set of Rafa in years and you expect him to come out all guns blazing in his first ever major final? Having said that he did get close in the second set and almost got the break in the third so he didn't play too bad, he just didn't hold his nerve in the latter stages of each set.

considering he was hot, he should have put up more of a fight than he did

 

[abmk]

No he doesn't, I'll agree with that, but he hit more winners and had less UE's so therefore he played better in the USO final than Davy did in the QF who had a negative 18 ratio in the W/UE's count.



I wasn't confident in your abilities to calculate them.

another joke ! If you didn't believe my calculations, should've calculated them yourself before accusing me. You are a joker and a liar !

stats aren't the sole measure of how well a player played.

Verdy broke Rafa too so what? Does Roddick breaking Fed once mean more than Verdy breaking Rafa? He played shi.t, he still wouldn't have won had he played better but he could've played a lot better. The Roddick serve isn't that easy to break and Fed did it with ease all night. When Roddick's serving isn't working it's lights out for him. Verdy played better.

roddick played CLEARLY better.

And he served crap because of the pressure Rafa puts on him, my point all along. 3 breaks in the first set is what set the tone for Fed and he felt more pressured to get the first serves in and that's why it dropped heavily in the second. Had Rafa not gone conservative in the second set, he probably would've won it.

LOL, wut ? federer served worse in the 2nd than he did in the first. He won the second because he played better off the ground and put lot of pressure on rafa from the baseline

And because he attacks the second serve which gives him the chance to control the points on the Fed serve.

no, he doesn't attack that much. Its more the other factors

 

[Sharpshooter]

not full confidence, but the win over fed at davis cup would've made a difference , right ?

Maybe, but not after seeing Fed's form in the YEC's. Fed got a lot stronger mentally after winning that one IMO.

3-sets vs 5-sets. Big difference. See rafa's matches vs petz and haase in 2010 wimby for example

Yes it is a big difference, but they weren't up 2 sets to love. If Felix can win 2 in a row when Rafa's playing bad, then he can win a third on Rafa's less preferred surface.

 

[abmk]

Importance of placement in returning - one of my posts

yes, we are talking only about grass, even there federer has quite clearly the better tie-break record. Perhaps I'll put that one up later ...

I can see why people would think why sampras would the fav on grass and indoors - I think sampras would be favoured slightly indoors, but I'd give fed the slight edge on grass ..( but this thread question was about 99 wimby final sampras, so I said tossup )

regarding fed's returning, he certainly increases his aggressiveness while returning against SnVers, examples would be his matches vs sampras in wimby 2001, henman in 2001, scud in 2003, ancic in 2006, karlovic in 2009

In any case, one of the most under-rated aspects of returning is placement and federer knows how to place his return darn well , a well placed slower return is much better than an agressive fast return right into the sweet spot of the racquet of the volleyer

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4760719&postcount=67

 

[abmk]

Maybe, but not after seeing Fed's form in the YEC's. Fed got a lot stronger mentally after winning that one IMO.

federer did gain confidence after that, but he didn't play hewitt there, did he ? The previous loss in the Davis cup, a 5-setter would still be in both minds

Yes it is a big difference, but they weren't up 2 sets to love. If Felix can win 2 in a row when Rafa's playing bad, then he can win a third on Rafa's less preferred surface.

again , a warmup tourney vs a GS. rafa was clearly off-form at queens, nearly losing to istomin the round before. I don't think he tried his very best there either

 

[Sharpshooter]

challenging doesn't necessarily mean taking a player to five sets. But whatever suits your boat :roll:

To me, it does. What sort of a challenge is it if the match doesn't go the distance? Not much.

returns more more aggressively when compared to his own play against others. yes, to an extent .. close to say nalbandian, davydenko or djoker ? HELL NO !

BS he does too, you even said yourself placement is pretty important Rafa places it better than ANY of these guys. That's why he is able to break him more often because with the heavy topspin to Fed's BH he can control the point.

umm, no ... rafa played brilliantly but youzhny was capable of playing better than he did

Rafa did not allow him to get any rhythm. Youzhny only got a glimpse in the third because Rafa's focus faded a little.

and djoker doesn't beat rafa anywhere in a slam, can barely take sets off him. can't win one match when it really matters, can't win when it gets close .atleast fed can take rafa playing darn darn well to 5 sets ( even making a comeback from 2 sets down ).

They had never met in a HC slam prior to US open, so of course he wasn't going to win in the FO and in Wim07 he gave him a good run for it until he had to retire.

So please explain how his FO and Wim performances are any indication on how things would've turned out in the USO final? Completely different surfaces and circumstances. Djoko was playing the best tourny he had ever played (maybe apart from 08AO) and he was full of confidence after finally knocking Fed off up there so he was clearly the most dangerous opponent Rafa could've possibly faced in the final. Fed would just fall apart again, but with Djoko it was uncertain because of his very good outdoor HC h2h against Rafa, whereas Fed's was/is quite poor.

wasn't verdy hitting through the wind for half a set ? what happened all of a sudden ? huge drop in level and he started playing cr*p. not much of a difference in the matches IMO ... eitherways neither played that you can defend them on the basis of their ranking !

Rafa didn't give him anything easy to hit after the first half of set 1 and throughout the rest of the match. And Verdy played up to his ranking, put up a bit of a challenge and then eventually got outplayed by the world number one. Could not expect much more from him. He wasn't a challenging opponent, but he WAS more challenging than Roddick in AO07.

not necessarily. Because a shot is tougher doesn't mean it is the one which gets the job done against the player,it also depends on how many times it is executed and how many times it comes off

The Djoko BH is one of the best BH's in the game. Rafa knows this, that's why he normally tries to hit to Djoko's FH side. So if the BH wasn't the weapon of Djoko's that gets the job done than why would Rafa try to avoid it? Djoko's FH is a bit off at times and is definitely his weaker side. The BH DTL is the weapon that earns him victories over Rafa.

considering he was hot, he should have put up more of a fight than he did

Yeah maybe he should've but than again Gonzo should've also.

 

[Sharpshooter]

another joke ! If you didn't believe my calculations, should've calculated them yourself before accusing me. You are a joker and a liar !

I already mentioned how it was early morn here pal, I'm not gonna do maths at 2-3AM. In case you want to know if I know, the formula should be something like this:

FE = TP - (W+UE)

So the remaining points that weren't decided by a winner or UE are the Forced Errors.

stats aren't the sole measure of how well a player played.

So why are you arguing so vigorously that Gonzo played fairly well because the score read 6-4 in the last 2 sets? He played crap after set 1 and was no more challenging than Berdych.

roddick played CLEARLY better.

Oh I'm convinced now

LOL, wut ? federer served worse in the 2nd than he did in the first. He won the second because he played better off the ground and put lot of pressure on rafa from the baseline

Which is why I said his served dropped in the second set. Learn to READ!!!!

no, he doesn't attack that much. Its more the other factors

BS, did you not watch the vids I posted? In that AO09 final he either belted a return or returned deep at Fed's BH or feet, very few short returns off the second serve in the first set. And again, this is why Fed's serve fell even further in the second, he felt even more pressure because of the tone Rafa set in the first set.

 

[Sharpshooter]

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4760719&postcount=67

Yeah you were defending Fed again as usual. Why didn't you say that Rafa's placement was a key factor in attacking the Fed second serve then? Clearly it was but you want to go on about the power hitters (like Safin) belting the shi.t out of the ball when returning. Rafa constructs his points against Fed and his attack is by placing the ball into Fed's weaker areas so he can control the point. He does this all the time against Fed and is why he is able to break him more than most other players.

 

[Sharpshooter]

federer did gain confidence after that, but he didn't play hewitt there, did he ? The previous loss in the Davis cup, a 5-setter would still be in both minds

Yes it would, but if you can beat the higher ranked players and you know Hewy isn't at his best anymore would there really be much of a reason to fear him? His nerves disappeared after the first set and he romped him.

again , a warmup tourney vs a GS. rafa was clearly off-form at queens, nearly losing to istomin the round before. I don't think he tried his very best there either

No of course he didn't try his best there but the fact remains, if he had played bad than Lopez would have a chance. That's the case in any match, if the favorite plays off, then he will struggle.

 

[abmk]

To me, it does. What sort of a challenge is it if the match doesn't go the distance? Not much.

LOL, stick with your own "stupid" definition, but don't expect others to follow it.

BS he does too, you even said yourself placement is pretty important Rafa places it better than ANY of these guys. That's why he is able to break him more often because with the heavy topspin to Fed's BH he can control the point.

how thick can you get ? rafa plays better off the ground than these guys and is the worst possible matchup for fed, in general. that is why he breaks fed, not because he attacks fed's serve more than these guys

Rafa did not allow him to get any rhythm. Youzhny only got a glimpse in the third because Rafa's focus faded a little.

if youzhny could've served better, he could've dictated on his serve even more, are you saying youzhny could try to dictate more on his own service games if he tried ? LOL !

he could've been more aggressive on the returns as well

They had never met in a HC slam prior to US open, so of course he wasn't going to win in the FO and in Wim07 he gave him a good run for it until he had to retire.

So please explain how his FO and Wim performances are any indication on how things would've turned out in the USO final? Completely different surfaces and circumstances. Djoko was playing the best tourny he had ever played (maybe apart from 08AO) and he was full of confidence after finally knocking Fed off up there so he was clearly the most dangerous opponent Rafa could've possibly faced in the final. Fed would just fall apart again, but with Djoko it was uncertain because of his very good outdoor HC h2h against Rafa, whereas Fed's was/is quite poor.

best tourney apart from 08 AO ? LOL no, he's played better in quite a few tournaments (USO 07,09, montreal 07 etc )

reg FO , I didn't say he was expected to beat him, but he hasn't even taken a set off nadal there .

He hasn't got it done vs nadal in a big match on any surface, ever. Fed has and is a 16-time slam champion.

Rafa didn't give him anything easy to hit after the first half of set 1 and throughout the rest of the match. And Verdy played up to his ranking, put up a bit of a challenge and then eventually got outplayed by the world number one. Could not expect much more from him. He wasn't a challenging opponent, but he WAS more challenging than Roddick in AO07.

he did NOT play upto his ranking. Only to your biased eye,he did. LOL @ he was a more of a challengeing opponent than roddick in AO 2007, not even close !

The Djoko BH is one of the best BH's in the game. Rafa knows this, that's why he normally tries to hit to Djoko's FH side. So if the BH wasn't the weapon of Djoko's that gets the job done than why would Rafa try to avoid it? Djoko's FH is a bit off at times and is definitely his weaker side. The BH DTL is the weapon that earns him victories over Rafa.

rafa hits quite a bit to djoker's BH as well, he doesn't avoid it that much ...

Yeah maybe he should've but than againGonzo should've also.

yes, but gonzo did MUCH better than berdych

 

[abmk]

I already mentioned how it was early morn here pal, I'm not gonna do maths at 2-3AM. In case you want to know if I know, the formula should be something like this:

FE = TP - (W+UE)

So the remaining points that weren't decided by a winner or UE are the Forced Errors.

LOL, wut ? is it too early now too ?

can't even get a formula right or put it correctly ...

forced errors committed by A = TP(B) - UE(A) - W(B)

So why are you arguing so vigorously that Gonzo played fairly well because the score read 6-4 in the last 2 sets? He played crap after set 1 and was no more challenging than Berdych.

^^

Oh I'm convinced now

I saw the match, unlike you, who put the scores at 6-2 in the final 2 sets which is why said gonzo played some good tennis , even in the last 2 sets.

BS, did you not watch the vids I posted? In that AO09 final he either belted a return or returned deep at Fed's BH or feet, very few short returns off the second serve in the first set. And again, this is why Fed's serve fell even further in the second, he felt even more pressure because of the tone Rafa set in the first set.

LOL, I saw the final twice, it was nothing like the BS you mention. nadal attacked a few 2nd serves here and there, that's it. federer's serving rhythm was totally off.

it continued onto IW/miami/MC/rome. Only at madrid , did he find his range back on the serve

 

[abmk]

Yes it would, but if you can beat the higher ranked players and you know Hewy isn't at his best anymore would there really be much of a reason to fear him? His nerves disappeared after the first set and he romped him.



No of course he didn't try his best there but the fact remains, if he had played bad than Lopez would have a chance. That's the case in any match, if the favorite plays off, then he will struggle.

So we are equating hewitt and lopez ( who was playing crappy tennis ) in terms of chances of causing upset in a GS ? :lol:

@ bold part, yes, but against whom will the struggle be more ? A 2 time champion , who just won their previous 5-setter or a player who wasn't ever reached the top 10 and was not even hot to be anywhere near to causing an upset

 

[Sharpshooter]

LOL, stick with your own "stupid" definition, but don't expect others to follow it.

I'm not expecting you to follow, just explaining my reasoning.

how thick can you get ? rafa plays better off the ground than these guys and is the worst possible matchup for fed, in general. that is why he breaks fed, not because he attacks fed's serve more than these guys

Worse possible match up because of how he dictates the play off the ground and he is only able to do that against Fed's serve by returning well and attacking Fed's serves by placing the ball in difficult positions.

if youzhny could've served better, he could've dictated on his serve even more, are you saying youzhny could try to dictate more on his own service games if he tried ? LOL !

Yeah probably but you can't judge his whole performance just off his serve. I'm pretty sure I heard the statistic where Rafa has the most breaks of serve on tour. He puts pressure on the server more than anyone else.

he could've been more aggressive on the returns as well

He was totally unprepared for the new Rafa serve.

best tourney apart from 08 AO ? LOL no, he's played better in quite a few tournaments (USO 07,09, montreal 07 etc )

That's your opinion, but you can't compare Montreal to a GS.

reg FO , I didn't say he was expected to beat him, but he hasn't even taken a set off nadal there .

That's because he can't touch Rafa on the RG surface. Got closer than Fed in 08 though.

He hasn't got it done vs nadal in a big match on any surface, ever. Fed has and is a 16-time slam champion.

What are the big matches Roger has won? 2 wimbledons when Rafa's grass game wasn't complete. He also almost lost one of those so don't talk crap.

he did NOT play upto his ranking. Only to your biased eye,he did. LOL @ he was a more of a challengeing opponent than roddick in AO 2007, not even close !

So you expect a number 8 to take the number 1 player (by far ATT) to 5 gruelling sets in conditions that are detrimental to his game.

rafa hits quite a bit to djoker's BH as well, he doesn't avoid it that much ...

Only when he is in full control of the point, when he's on the defense he hits to Djoker's FH more often than not. Anyway it is widely regarded that Djoker's FH is his weaker wing and is unstable at times. It is not one of his better shots.

yes, but gonzo did MUCH better than berdych

WTF? He lost in straights, just like Berdych. But at least Berdy didn't go away after one set. MUCH better is a ludicrous statement!

 

[Sharpshooter]

LOL, wut ? is it too early now too ?

can't even get a formula right or put it correctly ...

forced errors committed by A = TP(B) - UE(A) - W(B)

Let's say Rafa wins 80 points. 30 of them by winners and 20 by opponents UE's that means the remaining points he won must have been from forced errors.

FE(30) = TP(80) - (W(30)+UE(20))

So my formula was correct you just transposed it.

It's common sense really because:

TP = W + UE + FE

TP - the total points won in the match by a given player
W - the points won off given player's clean winners
UE - the points won off opponents errors
FE - the points won where the opponent was forced to make an error by the given player.

So learn your maths pal.

Oh I'm convinced now

I saw the match, unlike you, who put the scores at 6-2 in the final 2 sets which is why said gonzo played some good tennis , even in the last 2 sets.

LOL here we go with the sets thing again. OK I get it I got the score wrong. WHY? Because the way I remembered it (YES REMEMBERED, NOT LOOKING THROUGH WIKIPEDIA) was Fed was really comfortable after the first set. Even in the first set, it was more of Fed's UE's that were costing him than Gonzo's play. But you wouldn't know that because you didn't watch it and you just got the score off wikipedia, you didn't remember it either. It's not like you remember the exact score of every match that you watch especially when the match happened 4 years ago. That's all you got on me pal re the Gonzo match, fact is he played crap after set one and even then, Fed's errors were the reason he was having some form of success.

LOL, I saw the final twice, it was nothing like the BS you mention. nadal attacked a few 2nd serves here and there, that's it. federer's serving rhythm was totally off.

it continued onto IW/miami/MC/rome. Only at madrid , did he find his range back on the serve

I saw the final FIVE(5) times. I copied it off my Foxtel recording onto DVD. Rafa's first set he played very aggressive off the Federer serve, go watch the links I posted and see for yourself numbnuts. I'm sick of repeating myself, Rafa's first set return game put Fed under even more pressure and that's why he struggled in the second and the rest of the night.

 

[Sharpshooter]

So we are equating hewitt and lopez ( who was playing crappy tennis ) in terms of chances of causing upset in a GS ? :lol:

@ bold part, yes, but against whom will the struggle be more ? A 2 time champion , who just won their previous 5-setter or a player who wasn't ever reached the top 10 and was not even hot to be anywhere near to causing an upset

Both posed no threat ATT. YOu're just splitting hairs. It's not like you're gonna say this guy had a tougher draw because his round 4 opponent was tougher.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Are you guys still fighting?! :shock:

Maybe you guys should just agree to disagree and leave it at that. This is more epic that any GS final that Fedal have had.

 

[mandy01]

I saw the final FIVE(5) times. I copied it off my Foxtel recording onto DVD. Rafa's first set he played very aggressive off the Federer serve, go watch the links I posted and see for yourself numbnuts. I'm sick of repeating myself, Rafa's first set return game put Fed under even more pressure and that's why he struggled in the second and the rest of the night.

I don't think anyone's seen dumber logic.So apparently,a guy returned well in the first set and that was enough to throw Fed completely off his serve through the evening.The funnier part is that Fed has served so much better in all of their subsequent matches.(which haven't been many but still):mrgreen:
Oh well...I suppose Nadal wasn't in the mood to return aggressively then.:shock:

 

[abmk]

Let's say Rafa wins 80 points. 30 of them by winners and 20 by opponents UE's that means the remaining points he won must have been from forced errors.

FE(30) = TP(80) - (W(30)+UE(20))

So my formula was correct you just transposed it.

It's common sense really because:

TP = W + UE + FE

TP - the total points won in the match by a given player
W - the points won off given player's clean winners
UE - the points won off opponents errors
FE - the points won where the opponent was forced to make an error by the given player.

So learn your maths pal.

LOL, what a clueless post. I was pointing to the fact that you did not specify whose UEs and whose FEs and whose winners they were in the formula. Can't even get one thing right !

LOL here we go with the sets thing again. OK I get it I got the score wrong. WHY? Because the way I remembered it (YES REMEMBERED, NOT LOOKING THROUGH WIKIPEDIA) was Fed was really comfortable after the first set. Even in the first set, it was more of Fed's UE's that were costing him than Gonzo's play. But you wouldn't know that because you didn't watch it and you just got the score off wikipedia, you didn't remember it either. It's not like you remember the exact score of every match that you watch especially when the match happened 4 years ago. That's all you got on me pal re the Gonzo match, fact is he played crap after set one and even then, Fed's errors were the reason he was having some form of success.

no one asked you to remember the score. You could've said fed was fairly comfortable in the final 2 sets, but no , you chose to say two 6-2 sets. Just typical of the BS you've said time and again !

I saw the final FIVE(5) times. I copied it off my Foxtel recording onto DVD. Rafa's first set he played very aggressive off the Federer serve, go watch the links I posted and see for yourself numbnuts. I'm sick of repeating myself, Rafa's first set return game put Fed under even more pressure and that's why he struggled in the second and the rest of the night.

LOL, I'll just say you don't know the definiton of aggressive. If you've watched that five times and say he returned more aggressive than say what nalbandian, djoker or davydenko return, all I'll say is there's no hope for you

 

[abmk]

I don't think anyone's seen dumber logic.So apparently,a guy returned well in the first set and that was enough to throw Fed completely off his serve through evening.The funnier part is that Fed has served so much better in all of their subsequent matches.(which haven't been many but still):mrgreen:
Oh well...I suppose Nadal wasn't in the mood to return aggressively then.:shock:

LOL, its just typical BS from him. the most aggressive I've seen rafa return against federer was the TMC 2007 SF, first four return games. he returned very aggressively and was in fact the better player ( slightly ) for the first eight games. After that it was all federer. Guess what was federer's serve % in that match - 81%...

from what I remember, rafa returned more agressively in wim 07 than in AO 09, guess what was fed's serve % in that match - 71%. He served brilliantly then as well

In wim 2008 when he was down 2 sets to love. He kept on serving brilliantly and took it to 5

In no other match, has federer served that badly against nadal...

But of course, he ignores all that , also ignores that fed did not find his serve back till madrid that year :roll:

 

[abmk]

Both posed no threat ATT. YOu're just splitting hairs. It's not like you're gonna say this guy had a tougher draw because his round 4 opponent was tougher.

yes, hewitt who was 7-2, having won their last 5-setter posed no threat at all and I should say there is no difference b/w him and a lopez, who hasn't reached top 10 and wasn't even playing well as far as difficulty is concerned, LOL !

no, I said 2004 AO was tougher than USO 2010 because fed's 4R,QF and SF opponents were tougher, only rafa's final opponent was tougher

 

[abmk]

I'm not expecting you to follow, just explaining my reasoning.

firstly I don't agree with your reasoning, secondly you had already backtracked on your own reasoning with the haas 2006 AO match

Worse possible match up because of how he dictates the play off the ground and he is only able to do that against Fed's serve by returning well and attacking Fed's serves by placing the ball in difficult positions..

lefty FH to righty one handed BH, excellent movement, these are the foremost reasons, "aggressive" returning is fairly below in that list

Yeah probably but you can't judge his whole performance just off his serve. I'm pretty sure I heard the statistic where Rafa has the most breaks of serve on tour. He puts pressure on the server more than anyone else.

in 2008, he was, when he returned at his very best. was pretty good in 2009 as well ...Not this year, he is at #6 or #7 from what I remember.

He was totally unprepared for the new Rafa serve.

perhaps

That's your opinion, but you can't compare Montreal to a GS.

I put in other GSes as well

That's because he can't touch Rafa on the RG surface. Got closer than Fed in 08 though.

that's because fed played like sh*t that year's FO

What are the big matches Roger has won? 2 wimbledons when Rafa's grass game wasn't complete. He also almost lost one of those so don't talk crap.

rafa in wim 2007 played "almost" as well as in wim 2008 final .. he served better in 2008, but played better off the ground in 2007 IMO

I could also say rafa won their 2 non-clay GS matches because , federer played sh*t on BPs in the first (even by his standards at that ) and served like cr*p in the 2nd

So you expect a number 8 to take the number 1 player (by far ATT) to 5 gruelling sets in conditions that are detrimental to his game.

again, your stupid definition of a fight. All I said was that he should've played better. I wouldn't have cared if he'd lost in straights had he put in a good effort

take for example this year's RG, hewitt lost to rafa in straights, but he put up a good fight

Only when he is in full control of the point, when he's on the defense he hits to Djoker's FH more often than not. Anyway it is widely regarded that Djoker's FH is his weaker wing and is unstable at times. It is not one of his better shots.

yes, his BH is more stable, but he can and does dictate more with his FH when playing well

WTF? He lost in straights, just like Berdych. But at least Berdy didn't go away after one set. MUCH better is a ludicrous statement!

gonzo didn't go away after the first set. But then can't expect better than this BS !

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I just want to comment on the AO 04.

That was a tough draw for Federer.

Facing Hewitt, who until a few months back was the outright number one in the round of 16 is tough. Especially knowing that he leads you 7-2 head to head, and had actually beaten you just a few months earlier on the very same court. Lets not forget, Hewitt was in his prime, and certainly was not prepared to walk away, having already had won two slams. And after blowing away the Davis Cup semi, Federer had a tough internal battle also in this one.

Facing Nalbandian in the quarters. This guy had a 5-0 lead in the head to head, until Federer finally one his first match at the TMC. Plus, Nalbandian had proven that he was the perfect foil to Federer in a best of five, beating him the previous year at the AO and then again at the USO in five sets. So if anyone believed they could beat him, it would be him.

Ferrero in the semis. Ferrero also had a winning record against Federer, and the two were battling for the world number spot, after Roddick lost to Safin. Ferrero was in great form, a FO champion, and finalist at the US Open, and former number one. The guy was incredible, and was in his prime. And with the pressure knowing that the winner of this match was going to be number one, Federer played well.

Yes, Safin was exhausted in the final, but Federer had to face many of his demons to even get to that final. And back then Federer did not have the aura, that Nadal had at the USO. They all believed they could beat him, but that performance was the biggest step in Federer rising above his peers to the top.

 

[abmk]

I just want to comment on the AO 04.

That was a tough draw for Federer.

Facing Hewitt, who until a few months back was the outright number one in the round of 16 is tough. Especially knowing that he leads you 7-2 head to head, and had actually beaten you just a few months earlier on the very same court. Lets not forget, Hewitt was in his prime, and certainly was not prepared to walk away, having already had won two slams. And after blowing away the Davis Cup semi, Federer had a tough internal battle also in this one.

Facing Nalbandian in the quarters. This guy had a 5-0 lead in the head to head, until Federer finally one his first match at the TMC. Plus, Nalbandian had proven that he was the perfect foil to Federer in a best of five, beating him the previous year at the AO and then again at the USO in five sets. So if anyone believed they could beat him, it would be him.

Ferrero in the semis. Ferrero also had a winning record against Federer, and the two were battling for the world number spot, after Roddick lost to Safin. Ferrero was in great form, a FO champion, and finalist at the US Open, and former number one. The guy was incredible, and was in his prime. And with the pressure knowing that the winner of this match was going to be number one, Federer played well.

Yes, Safin was exhausted in the final, but Federer had to face many of his demons to even get to that final. And back then Federer did not have the aura, that Nadal had at the USO. They all believed they could beat him, but that performance was the biggest step in Federer rising above his peers to the top.

agree ...10 chars

 

[Sharpshooter]

LOL, what a clueless post. I was pointing to the fact that you did not specify whose UEs and whose FEs and whose winners they were in the formula. Can't even get one thing right !

You're the one who's clueless you can't read a formula! I CLEARLY specified that the forced errors is calculated by subtracting the sum of the points won by winners plus the points won by opponent unforced errors from the total points gained. If that's too hard for you then I feel sorry for you.

no one asked you to remember the score. You could've said fed was fairly comfortable in the final 2 sets, but no , you chose to say two 6-2 sets. Just typical of the BS you've said time and again !

I remembered it as 6-2 because I remembered how comfortable Fed was after set one. Again, it's not like you're gonna remember the score of a match that happened 4 years ago.

LOL, I'll just say you don't know the definiton of aggressive. If you've watched that five times and say he returned more aggressive than say what nalbandian, djoker or davydenko return, all I'll say is there's no hope for you

No he returned aggressively in set one, which sent Fed a message that he was going to pounce on the serves if they weren't perfect. This added pressure and then he lost his rhythm after that. Once you lose rhythm it's very hard to serve well again later in the match.

That YEC in 2007 was when Fed was hot off a 5 set Wimbledon victory and full of confidence, AO09 was quite the opposite.

 

[Sharpshooter]

LOL, its just typical BS from him. the most aggressive I've seen rafa return against federer was the TMC 2007 SF, first four return games. he returned very aggressively and was in fact the better player ( slightly ) for the first eight games. After that it was all federer. Guess what was federer's serve % in that match - 81%...

from what I remember, rafa returned more agressively in wim 07 than in AO 09, guess what was fed's serve % in that match - 71%. He served brilliantly then as well

In wim 2008 when he was down 2 sets to love. He kept on serving brilliantly and took it to 5

In no other match, has federer served that badly against nadal...

But of course, he ignores all that , also ignores that fed did not find his serve back till madrid that year :roll:

Confidence is HUGE in tennis. THose matches in 2007 were when Fed had a good patch against Rafa. He won Wim06 so was really confident of winning in 07 again. AO09 was different, Rafa had claimed the world number one ranking, dethroned him at Wimbledon for the first time since 2002 and Fed was expected to win because Nadal was supposed to be exhausted. But Rafa proved that he's a fighting champion and came out blazing in the first set. This threw Fed's concentration off guard.

 

[Sharpshooter]

firstly I don't agree with your reasoning, secondly you had already backtracked on your own reasoning with the haas 2006 AO match

I don't care if you agree or not. Secondly, that Haas match was weird. Fed was killing him and then switched off for two sets. When he realised that it was on the line, he disposed of Haas like he was nothing. In fact you'd be frgiven for thinking that Fed came back from 2 sets to love down and had all the momentum in the fifth set. It was one of the most one sided five setters ever and Fed's rain fade shouldn't make that match even worth mentioning as a great or tough match. BOgus!

lefty FH to righty one handed BH, excellent movement, these are the foremost reasons, "aggressive" returning is fairly below in that list

Rubbish, Rafa takes it to Fed more than anyone. He even said himself that he has to go harder against Fed and can't hold back as much. And it's not just the left FH to the Fed BH, it's also the Rafa BH to the Fed BH as well mate. He tries to return deep to the Fed BH side with heavy topspin and in that AO09 final he did that well in the first set and made his intentions perfectly clear.

in 2008, he was, when he returned at his very best. was pretty good in 2009 as well ...Not this year, he is at #6 or #7 from what I remember.

Shi.t that's bad number 6 or 7 off your memory. You mean there's another 5 -6 whole guys that returned better than him in 2010? Well damn Youzhny's serve wasn't in trouble at all...

I put in other GSes as well

The other GS's you included are arguable. And LOL at US09, he struggled against Verdasco (you know that player you keep talking down) and also had a bit of a battle in the second or third round (according to my memory), so no he wasn't playing better than 2010 USO.

that's because fed played like sh*t that year's FO

Oh so let's just excuse that then. Sweep it under the rug...

rafa in wim 2007 played "almost" as well as in wim 2008 final .. he served better in 2008, but played better off the ground in 2007 IMO

He got a little nervous in that fifth set when he had the break points. Fed served his way out well, but I think the moment got to him a little. He came to 2008 Wimby with a MUCH improved Power CC BH. He still had to tweak his game a little on that surface, and he did that in 08.

However regardless of that, those 2 wins were when Rafa wasn't as polished. He was 20 and 21 years old in those matches and not as battle tough as he was a year later. I doubt Fed would be drawing confidence from those matches had he met Rafa in USO10.

I could also say rafa won their 2 non-clay GS matches because , federer played sh*t on BPs in the first (even by his standards at that ) and served like cr*p in the 2nd

That's Fed's fault, it's not Rafa's fault that he lacked experience, Fed however was in his prime, so make any excuse you want. Fact is Rafa is 6-2 ahead in GS meetings.

again, your stupid definition of a fight. All I said was that he should've played better. I wouldn't have cared if he'd lost in straights had he put in a good effort

take for example this year's RG, hewitt lost to rafa in straights, but he put up a good fight

If Rafa was in as sharp a form in FO09 as he was in USO10 that match would've been over MUCH sooner. It's not Verdy's fault he ran into a very determined Nadal.

yes, his BH is more stable, but he can and does dictate more with his FH when playing well

Rubbish his BH is his money shot, he dictates more with it and punishes more with it.

gonzo didn't go away after the first set. But then can't expect better than this BS !

Yes he did pal. He had treatment to his shoulder causing his shots to have less bite and then in the third set he reached a VERY flattering score of 6-4.

 

[abmk]

You're the one who's clueless you can't read a formula! I CLEARLY specified that the forced errors is calculated by subtracting the sum of the points won by winners plus the points won by opponent unforced errors from the total points gained. If that's too hard for you then I feel sorry for you.

LOL, this is another clueless post. You didn't specify anything in the first post . You only did in the 2nd , after I had clearly answered it !

I remembered it as 6-2 because I remembered how comfortable Fed was after set one. Again, it's not like you're gonna remember the score of a match that happened 4 years ago.

Like I said, you are a liar, not even good at that anyways. Just because it "seemed" easy to you , you assumed a score of 6-2 in both the sets ? hilarious !

No he returned aggressively in set one, which sent Fed a message that he was going to pounce on the serves if they weren't perfect. This added pressure and then he lost his rhythm after that. Once you lose rhythm it's very hard to serve well again later in the match.

That YEC in 2007 was when Fed was hot off a 5 set Wimbledon victory and full of confidence, AO09 was quite the opposite.

was it now ? Hadn't fed won the last GS, USO 2008 ? didn't he serve darn well in wimby 2008 , after he was bagelled in FO 2008, and even when he went down 2 sets to love ?

and that's supposed to explain why federer served sh*t till madrid 2009 ? :lol:

fact is , he lost his rhythm on his own, rafa had little to do with, he normally serves well against rafa.

 

[Sharpshooter]

LOL, this is another clueless post. You didn't specify anything in the first post . You only did in the 2nd , after I had clearly answered it !

My first post contained the correct formula, you only transposed mine. It's quite obvious that the make up of a player's TP is from his opponents UE's and not his own, so really there was no need to specify that but because you want to argue you try and find any technical flaw that you can because you're embarrassed that I actually did know the formula when you claimed that I didn't know how to calculate it. You had egg on your face so you tried to pull some crap about me not specifying who's UE's determines the TP when its obvious.

So you didn't answer anything.

Like I said, you are a liar, not even good at that anyways. Just because it "seemed" easy to you , you assumed a score of 6-2 in both the sets ? hilarious !

Well duh what kind of score would come to your mind if you remembered a match being easy for one guy after the first set? Like I said, as if someone's gonna remember the exact score of an average match after 4 years anyway.

was it now ? Hadn't fed won the last GS, USO 2008 ? didn't he serve darn well in wimby 2008 , after he was bagelled in FO 2008, and even when he went down 2 sets to love ?

and that's supposed to explain why federer served sh*t till madrid 2009 ? :lol:

fact is , he lost his rhythm on his own, rafa had little to do with, he normally serves well against rafa.

Yeah but he didn't beat Rafa in US08 so what's the point? Plus he had more confidence that he could win at Wim rather than RG in 08. Face it he feared Rafa in the AO09 final it showed quite clearly in his nervous serving. That loss hit him pretty hard so its understandable that it took him till Madrid to regain his rhythm.

 

[abmk]

I don't care if you agree or not. Secondly, that Haas match was weird. Fed was killing him and then switched off for two sets. When he realised that it was on the line, he disposed of Haas like he was nothing. In fact you'd be frgiven for thinking that Fed came back from 2 sets to love down and had all the momentum in the fifth set. It was one of the most one sided five setters ever and Fed's rain fade shouldn't make that match even worth mentioning as a great or tough match. BOgus!

not disagreeing that was one of the easiest five-setters fed had. it was. Just that by your own stupid definition, that was haas putting up a fight :lol:

Rubbish, Rafa takes it to Fed more than anyone. He even said himself that he has to go harder against Fed and can't hold back as much. And it's not just the left FH to the Fed BH, it's also the Rafa BH to the Fed BH as well mate. He tries to return deep to the Fed BH side with heavy topspin and in that AO09 final he did that well in the first set and made his intentions perfectly clear.

actually in the AO 09 final, it was rafa's CC BH that was very good. he hit some sizzling winners with it. fed's BH help up pretty well as well in that final.

Shi.t that's bad number 6 or 7 off your memory. You mean there's another 5 -6 whole guys that returned better than him in 2010? Well damn Youzhny's serve wasn't in trouble at all...

clueless, just considering "only" return % games won stat to determine the best returner. Like there are no other factors. I just stated how rafa's return stats were in those years. rafa's return game as a whole is excellent, but his return as a standalone shot is just good . His return isn't attacking enough ala nalbandian or davydenko to force the server to change serve quite a bit . It his more his ground game,consistency and ability to put pressure on the opponents on the big points that gives him those breaks.

The other GS's you included are arguable. And LOL at US09, he struggled against Verdasco (you know that player you keep talking down) and also had a bit of a battle in the second or third round (according to my memory), so no he wasn't playing better than 2010 USO.

he went to 5 vs troicki in USO 2010 as well. LOL !

Oh so let's just excuse that then. Sweep it under the rug...

he'd have lost to rafa regardless. Just that the fact he was playing badly was the reason why he got less games than djoker at that year's FO

He got a little nervous in that fifth set when he had the break points. Fed served his way out well, but I think the moment got to him a little. He came to 2008 Wimby with a MUCH improved Power CC BH. He still had to tweak his game a little on that surface, and he did that in 08.

However regardless of that, those 2 wins were when Rafa wasn't as polished. He was 20 and 21 years old in those matches and not as battle tough as he was a year later. I doubt Fed would be drawing confidence from those matches had he met Rafa in USO10.

not much of a difference b/w rafa's BH in 2007 and 2008, only difference was his serve

in fact out of there 3 Wimbledon matches, rafa's BH was its best in wim 2006 final. It was better than his FH ( which was slightly off and was having trouble with fed's slice )

as far as being battle-ready is concerned, didn't rafa falter momentarily in wim 2008 final as well ? remember the fourth set TB ? double fault and uncharacteristic UE when up 5-2 ?

That's Fed's fault, it's not Rafa's fault that he lacked experience, Fed however was in his prime, so make any excuse you want. Fact is Rafa is 6-2 ahead in GS meetings.

fed's best years were 2004-07, so 2008 wimby and 2009 AO don't come under that

If Rafa was in as sharp a form in FO09 as he was in USO10 that match would've been over MUCH sooner. It's not Verdy's fault he ran into a very determined Nadal.

umm, what the hell are you on about ? RG 2009, hewitt did not put up a fight ( was just returning from injury IIRC ) and nadal destroyed him. I was talking about the rafa-hewitt match in RG 2010

Rubbish his BH is his money shot, he dictates more with it and punishes more with it.

no, its just that people generally expect the FH to be the stronger shot for most players and tend to under-rate FHs , especially when the BH of the same player is very good . That is the case with djoker.

While his BH is the better shot overall, when he is playing well, he dictates more with FH and it is the more punishing weapon

Yes he did pal. He had treatment to his shoulder causing his shots to have less bite and then in the third set he reached a VERY flattering score of 6-4.

repeating the words of the article like a parrot, I see !

 

[abmk]

My first post contained the correct formula, you only transposed mine. It's quite obvious that the make up of a player's TP is from his opponents UE's and not his own, so really there was no need to specify that but because you want to argue you try and find any technical flaw that you can because you're embarrassed that I actually did know the formula when you claimed that I didn't know how to calculate it. You had egg on your face so you tried to pull some crap about me not specifying who's UE's determines the TP when its obvious.

So you didn't answer anything.

How thick can you get ? I didn't transpose your forumla. I put in the correct terms specifying the winners was for whom, the unforced errors was for whom and forced errors was for whom. When writing a formula, you need to be clear, or haven't you learnt that much ?

In any case, I calculated it much before you and you are the clueless moron who accused me of making it up :... BWAHAHA !

Well duh what kind of score would come to your mind if you remembered a match being easy for one guy after the first set? Like I said, as if someone's gonna remember the exact score of an average match after 4 years anyway.

no one asked the score. You yourself came up with it just to put down fed . You could've given a subjective description if you didn't remember the score

Yeah but he didn't beat Rafa in US08 so what's the point? Plus he had more confidence that he could win at Wim rather than RG in 08. Face it he feared Rafa in the AO09 final it showed quite clearly in his nervous serving. That loss hit him pretty hard so its understandable that it took him till Madrid to regain his rhythm.

LOL, what a freakin' joke. yeah, he was so afraid of rafa that he went toe-to-toe with him from the baseline . Inspite of a bad last set, he won one point more than rafa , didn't he ? ( or was it one point less ? anyways it was nearly the same )

You pal, are totally clueless and hell bent on showing your cluelessness time and again

@ bold part: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!! oh wait !

HA HA HA HA

 

[Murrayfan31]

Any draw from Fed and Nadal.

 

[mandy01]

LOL, what a freakin' joke. yeah, he was so afraid of rafa that he went toe-to-toe with him from the baseline, inspite of a bad last set, he won one point more than rafa , didn't he ( or was it one point less ? anyways it was nearly the same )

He got one more point than Nadal despite the supposedly lopsided score in the final set(where he reeled off 7 straight unforced errors to lose serve after being up 30-0 I think).He won 174 points while Nadal was on 173(correct me if I'm wrong).
I remember Amritraj being a little surprised that Fed had more points.

In Madrid this year he had just 1 point less I think.I think Roger even won more points than Safin in the AO05 SF but I'm not so sure about that.

 

[abmk]

He got one more point than Nadal despite the supposedly lopsided score in the final set(where he reeled off 7 straight unforced errors to lose serve after being up 30-0 I think).He won 174 points while Nadal was on 173(correct me if I'm wrong).
I remember Amritraj being a little surprised that Fed had more points.

yep, he was so afraid, yet won one point more than rafa , inspite of a bad final set:lol:

In Madrid this year he had just 1 point less I think.I think Roger even won more points than Safin in the AO05 SF but I'm not so sure about that.

yes, one point less in madrid 2010 F

as far as safin-fed AO 2005 SF is concerned, fed won more points

 

[abmk]

Confidence is HUGE in tennis. THose matches in 2007 were when Fed had a good patch against Rafa. He won Wim06 so was really confident of winning in 07 again. AO09 was different, Rafa had claimed the world number one ranking, dethroned him at Wimbledon for the first time since 2002 and Fed was expected to win because Nadal was supposed to be exhausted. But Rafa proved that he's a fighting champion and came out blazing in the first set. This threw Fed's concentration off guard.

yes, fed was so disturbed by rafa coming out blazing that he not only broke back in the first set, but also broke again to go up a break :lol:

 

[Sharpshooter]

not disagreeing that was one of the easiest five-setters fed had. it was. Just that by your own stupid definition, that was haas putting up a fight :lol:

Wrong. That match is obviously not comparable to the US09 final. It was not a 5 set battle and everyone in their right mind knew Fed was going to end up winning it. I said when you don't know who's going to win in the fifth set, THEN it is a challenge, not when a player goes away for 2 sets.

actually in the AO 09 final, it was rafa's CC BH that was very good. he hit some sizzling winners with it. fed's BH help up pretty well as well in that final.

Whether Fed's BH held up or not, is not what we're talking about. Rafa did hit some good CC BH winners but the game plan is to attack the Fed BH. You should at least know that by now.

clueless, just considering "only" return % games won stat to determine the best returner. Like there are no other factors. I just stated how rafa's return stats were in those years. rafa's return game as a whole is excellent, but his return as a standalone shot is just good . His return isn't attacking enough ala nalbandian or davydenko to force the server to change serve quite a bit . It his more his ground game,consistency and ability to put pressure on the opponents on the big points that gives him those breaks.

Wrong again. I didn't only consider that, it's just one point I brought up. He puts pressure regardless of how you put it and that's what causes them to lose rhythm from their serves.

he went to 5 vs troicki in USO 2010 as well. LOL !

Yes, but after round 1 he played pretty well, disposed of Monfils and dealt with his other opponents with ease bar Fed. In 09 he struggled throughout and couldn't even get a set off Fed.

he'd have lost to rafa regardless. Just that the fact he was playing badly was the reason why he got less games than djoker at that year's FO

You can't use shi.t play as an excuse, that's his fault! Shi.t IF anybody playes badly they tend to get thumped. Fact is Djoko put up more of a fight in 08 RG than Fed. Accept it and move on, don't make childish excuses for Fed saying he played like crap. Obviously he played crap and that's his fault.

not much of a difference b/w rafa's BH in 2007 and 2008, only difference was his serve

Rubbish, Rafa improved his CC BH leading into Wim 08, even the commentators noticed it. You just don't know anything and keep talking crap.

in fact out of there 3 Wimbledon matches, rafa's BH was its best in wim 2006 final. It was better than his FH ( which was slightly off and was having trouble with fed's slice )

No it wasn't at its best in 06. That's bullcrap. Raf didn't adjust his FH to the grass courts well enough ATT. So when his FH isn't working of course he was going to be more solid on BH. Fact is Rafa's BH was much improved in Wim08.

as far as being battle-ready is concerned, didn't rafa falter momentarily in wim 2008 final as well ? remember the fourth set TB ? double fault and uncharacteristic UE when up 5-2 ?

Remember the final result? What was that compared to 07? In the end he did hold his nerve whereas in 07 he did not.

fed's best years were 2004-07, so 2008 wimby and 2009 AO don't come under that

Oh how convenient Fed's best years stopped when Rafa improved his game to the point where he won Wimby. What a load of shi.t! Rafa got better in 2008 and that's why Fed wasn't as dominant. Rafa destroyed that aura he had.

umm, what the hell are you on about ? RG 2009, hewitt did not put up a fight ( was just returning from injury IIRC ) and nadal destroyed him. I was talking about the rafa-hewitt match in RG 2010

Even that match was not that much of a fight. LOL Rafa comfortably won each set, broke Lleyton 9 times IIRC.

no, its just that people generally expect the FH to be the stronger shot for most players and tend to under-rate FHs , especially when the BH of the same player is very good . That is the case with djoker.

While his BH is the better shot overall, when he is playing well, he dictates more with FH and it is the more punishing weapon

Nonsense, Djoker def punishes more with the BH go watch some of his matches esp against Nadal.

repeating the words of the article like a parrot, I see !

Man you've been repeating yourself the whole time, I watched the match live and remember it clearly that he had treatment after the first set and struggled after that stage, so suck it up you just can't admit when you're wrong. You think he played fairly well because you didn't watch it, you read the score off wikipedia.

 

[Sharpshooter]

How thick can you get ? I didn't transpose your forumla. I put in the correct terms specifying the winners was for whom, the unforced errors was for whom and forced errors was for whom. When writing a formula, you need to be clear, or haven't you learnt that much ?

I didn't have to say the UE's in my form were from the opponent because that is obvious. Seriously man you are just a dumbass. WHY would I say that the UE's made by the given player determine the TP's that he's won? That's a load of BS, it's obvious that the UE's of the opponent contribute to the TP that the given player has won.

Here it is again:

FE = TP - (W+UE)

Now why the hell would the UE's of the given player be included in that formula? it's obvious that UE stands for the points won off the opponents UE's you idiot.

In any case, I calculated it much before you and you are the clueless moron who accused me of making it up :... BWAHAHA !

I didn't accuse you of anything, I only asked you if you made it up. Learn to READ!!!

no one asked the score. You yourself came up with it just to put down fed . You could've given a subjective description if you didn't remember the score

I'll do what I want. If I want to say the score was 6-2 then I'll say it. Fact is that the reason I said it was 6-2 was because of how comfortable I remember Fed was after set 1.

LOL, what a freakin' joke. yeah, he was so afraid of rafa that he went toe-to-toe with him from the baseline . Inspite of a bad last set, he won one point more than rafa , didn't he ? ( or was it one point less ? anyways it was nearly the same )

Of course he fears Rafa, ATT probably the only pllayer he feared. He went toe-to-toe and gave it his best but in the end of the day Rafa sends chills down his spine and his nerves show throughout all of their GS matches.

@ bold part: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!! oh wait !

HA HA HA HA

@ you and everything you post: BWHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA HAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHA!

 

[Sharpshooter]

yep, he was so afraid, yet won one point more than rafa , inspite of a bad final set:lol:



yes, one point less in madrid 2010 F

as far as safin-fed AO 2005 SF is concerned, fed won more points

Thankyou for backing up my statement. He wins more points but still loses those matches because in the clutch points he shi.ts himself and it costs him. LOL you are something special HAHAHAHAHA.

 

[Sharpshooter]

yes, fed was so disturbed by rafa coming out blazing that he not only broke back in the first set, but also broke again to go up a break :lol:

Yet lost his serve TWO more times after that so obviously Rafa got him worried again just like he always does. 6-2 GS record h2h says it all, Rafa has his number and he knows it.

 

[abmk]

Wrong. That match is obviously not comparable to the US09 final. It was not a 5 set battle and everyone in their right mind knew Fed was going to end up winning it. I said when you don't know who's going to win in the fifth set, THEN it is a challenge, not when a player goes away for 2 sets.

LOL, didn't you also mention drama in the 5th set and say its not always certain who's gonna win or something similar to that. yes, once fed woke up and reduced his errors, he was going to win, but if he had not ?

Whether Fed's BH held up or not, is not what we're talking about. Rafa did hit some good CC BH winners but the game plan is to attack the Fed BH. You should at least know that by now.

yes, obviously , but that didn't work out as well as he'd have hoped to, did it ?

Wrong again. I didn't only consider that, it's just one point I brought up. He puts pressure regardless of how you put it and that's what causes them to lose rhythm from their serves.

yes, tell me how many other times has fed lost his rhythm completely on his serve because of rafa's so called "aggressive" returning ? :lol:

Yes, but after round 1 he played pretty well, disposed of Monfils and dealt with his other opponents with ease bar Fed. In 09 he struggled throughout and couldn't even get a set off Fed.

incorrect, he only struggled in that one match vs verdasco. He also played VERY VERY well vs fed. he couldn't take a set off fed because federer played brilliantly. But you being the clueless fella who doesn't watch many matches wouldn't know that .

You can't use shi.t play as an excuse, that's his fault! Shi.t IF anybody playes badly they tend to get thumped. Fact is Djoko put up more of a fight in 08 RG than Fed. Accept it and move on, don't make childish excuses for Fed saying he played like crap. Obviously he played crap and that's his fault.

saying fed played cr*p is making an excuse ? LOL, how clueless are you ? Of course djoker put up more of a fight than fed did. Who denied that ?

Rubbish, Rafa improved his CC BH leading into Wim 08, even the commentators noticed it. You just don't know anything and keep talking crap.

No it wasn't at its best in 06. That's bullcrap. Raf didn't adjust his FH to the grass courts well enough ATT. So when his FH isn't working of course he was going to be more solid on BH. Fact is Rafa's BH was much improved in Wim08.

you are one hell of a nutter who doesn't watch matches, yet keeps on accusing me , who actually watched/watches match . Go and watch their wimby 2006 final again. nadal wasn't just solid on his BH, he hit PLENTY of winners with his BH , much more than his FH. IIRC, he hit 20 winners in the 3rd set, of which around 15 were BH winners ...You want a screenshot of how many winners rafa hit with his BH in that set ? I'll post it !

Remember the final result? What was that compared to 07? In the end he did hold his nerve whereas in 07 he did not.

08 4th set TB was more nerves than 07 final set, considering it was on rafa's own serve as opposed to it being on fed's serve in 07.

yes, he did finally conquer in the 2008 final, but he did have moments of nervousness there as well.

Oh how convenient Fed's best years stopped when Rafa improved his game to the point where he won Wimby. What a load of shi.t! Rafa got better in 2008 and that's why Fed wasn't as dominant. Rafa destroyed that aura he had.

fed's decline had already started before clay season in 2008, he played pretty poorly in early part of 2008, even before facing rafa. His movement had declined, his FH was erratic ....

rafa's improvement was a factor certainly, but it was fed's decline that was more of a factor IMO

Even that match was not that much of a fight. LOL Rafa comfortably won each set, broke Lleyton 9 times IIRC.

absolutely clueless .. you didn't even watch the match, again, as usual. match was closer than what the score suggests. Of course rafa was always going to win, but hewitt put up a fight

He broke hewitt 7 times and hewitt broke him thrice. Just saying ..

Nonsense, Djoker def punishes more with the BH go watch some of his matches esp against Nadal.

LOL !

Man you've been repeating yourself the whole time, I watched the match live and remember it clearly that he had treatment after the first set and struggled after that stage, so suck it up you just can't admit when you're wrong. You think he played fairly well because you didn't watch it, you read the score off wikipedia.

considering you making up the scores and the lines above this, anyone sane can see you are totally CLUELESS !

 

[abmk]

I didn't have to say the UE's in my form were from the opponent because that is obvious. Seriously man you are just a dumbass. WHY would I say that the UE's made by the given player determine the TP's that he's won? That's a load of BS, it's obvious that the UE's of the opponent contribute to the TP that the given player has won.

Here it is again:

FE = TP - (W+UE)

Now why the hell would the UE's of the given player be included in that formula? it's obvious that UE stands for the points won off the opponents UE's you idiot.


I didn't accuse you of anything, I only asked you if you made it up. Learn to READ!!!

face it, you are a LIAR and hopelessly crappy at that.

1. I had already calculated FE for the 2 matches, so I knew how to calculate. If you knew how to calculate earlier, you wouldn't ask me how I did it. You just tried to worm your way out saying you were lazy at time. LOL, what a pathetic excuse !

2. You need to be clear when you write a formula, you don't make assumptions. But then you haven't learnt much, it seems

I'll do what I want. If I want to say the score was 6-2 then I'll say it. Fact is that the reason I said it was 6-2 was because of how comfortable I remember Fed was after set 1.

and if I want to say thatyou are a FAKER and a LIAR for posting wrong scores, and that you didn't watch that match, I'll say it ! :lol:

Of course he fears Rafa, ATT probably the only pllayer he feared. He went toe-to-toe and gave it his best but in the end of the day Rafa sends chills down his spine and his nerves show throughout all of their GS matches.

let's get this straight:

you said fed's serve suffered that day because of rafa's returning and because fed fears him:

1. he's normally served against rafa. This was a rare occasion where he didn't

2. if he were that nervous , wouldn't his ground play also suffered a bit ? but no, it was one of the best matches he played against rafa from the baseline. How did it give it his best on the groundstrokes, but serve that pathetically ?

@ you and everything you post: BWHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA HAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHA!

that looks like the retort of a 10 year old kid.. LOL, can't even come up with an original retort !

 

[abmk]

Thankyou for backing up my statement. He wins more points but still loses those matches because in the clutch points he shi.ts himself and it costs him. LOL you are something special HAHAHAHAHA.

LOL, like rafa has never lost matches where he's won more points ! rafa is better mentally , but fed is no slouch either.

He didn't play badly on clutch points in AO 2005 SF by any means.

madrid 2010 was a case of the player who played less worse ( rafa ) winning. Neither of them played well

But then this is just typical of your clueless posts here

 

[abmk]

Yet lost his serve TWO more times after that so obviously Rafa got him worried again just like he always does. 6-2 GS record h2h says it all, Rafa has his number and he knows it.

no clueless, he lost serve twice after that because he was serving crappily and rafa was playing better off the ground than him in those games

you don't break twice in a set if you are in a state of fear - referring to fed breaking rafa twice in that set of course

 

[Sharpshooter]

LOL, didn't you also mention drama in the 5th set and say its not always certain who's gonna win or something similar to that. yes, once fed woke up and reduced his errors, he was going to win, but if he had not ?

I said that the drama determines the greatness of the match as long as the quality isn't bad. That match was of bad quality.

yes, obviously , but that didn't work out as well as he'd have hoped to, did it ?

Well, he only won the match so I guess yeah it didn't work.

yes, tell me how many other times has fed lost his rhythm completely on his serve because of rafa's so called "aggressive" returning ? :lol:

Fed was under more pressure in that match than probably any other match in his career. He was trying to tie Sampras' record in GS wins and he was the overwhelming favorite because everyone expected rafa to be tired. Once he realized that Rafa was going full tilt and attacking him he fell apart on serve.

incorrect, he only struggled in that one match vs verdasco. He also played VERY VERY well vs fed. he couldn't take a set off fed because federer played brilliantly. But you being the clueless fella who doesn't watch many matches wouldn't know that .

Who are you to tell me I'm incorrect because of your opinion? He also had another struggle in either the second or third round IIRC and yes Fed did play brilliantly, but Djoko in USO10 form would've at least won one set IMO. If you don't agree too bad I don't care.

saying fed played cr*p is making an excuse ? LOL, how clueless are you ? Of course djoker put up more of a fight than fed did. Who denied that ?

Well what is it then? Of course it's an excuse and a stupid one at that. You say Djoko did better than Fed in 08RG BUT only because Fed played crap. That is an excuse.

you are one hell of a nutter who doesn't watch matches, yet keeps on accusing me , who actually watched/watches match . Go and watch their wimby 2006 final again. nadal wasn't just solid on his BH, he hit PLENTY of winners with his BH , much more than his FH. IIRC, he hit 20 winners in the 3rd set, of which around 15 were BH winners ...You want a screenshot of how many winners rafa hit with his BH in that set ? I'll post it !

No I don't need it, I know he played better off the BH side in that match, I didn't deny that, just saying his BH was much more solid in Wim08 and that is true for the whole tournament.

08 4th set TB was more nerves than 07 final set, considering it was on rafa's own serve as opposed to it being on fed's serve in 07.

yes, he did finally conquer in the 2008 final, but he did have moments of nervousness there as well.

Yes he did have nerves in 08, also didn't deny that so WTF are you on about? All I said was he was able to overcome the nerves in 08 whereas in 07 he didn't because he wasn't as experienced.

fed's decline had already started before clay season in 2008, he played pretty poorly in early part of 2008, even before facing rafa. His movement had declined, his FH was erratic ....

rafa's improvement was a factor certainly, but it was fed's decline that was more of a factor IMO

Well then it was Rafa 's inexperience that was the biggest factor to Fed having good years from 04-07. Had the Rafa of today been around back then, things would've been MUCH more different, you'd have to have shi.t for brains to think that Fed would've been as dominant with a prime Rafa around...oh wait.

absolutely clueless .. you didn't even watch the match, again, as usual. match was closer than what the score suggests. Of course rafa was always going to win, but hewitt put up a fight

He broke hewitt 7 times and hewitt broke him thrice. Just saying ..

Hewitt always fights, he has been known throughout his career to be a fighter, Verdy doesn't have the same qualities; two completely different players. Verdy plays well through confidence and he started confidently because he could sense that Rafa was off the mark a little at the beginning of the match and he hit through the tough windy conditions quite well until Rafa upped his game.

BUT ask yourself this, was Hewitt ever in a commanding position in any set? Verdy was, just saying...

LOL !

LOL at you saying Djoko was more damaging off his FH side which is clearly his weaker side and is known for its instability.

considering you making up the scores and the lines above this, anyone sane can see you are totally CLUELESS !

Again, I said that score going off memory. Reason being was that Gonzo was no challenge after requiring shoulder treatment and Fed cleaning his UE's up after the first set. The only one here that's clueless is you saying that Gonzo played fairly well when he CLEARLY didn't. And the funny thing is you said that to defend Fed's AO07 draw which was MUCH easier than Rafa's USO2010. Djoko provided a decent challenge, no one in AO07 put up anything close to a challenge and they all played average. Plus Verdy was MUCH tougher than a hapless Roddick who could only manage to win 6 games. BUT according to your stupid logic he played better and it was only because Fed was superman in disguise (and played MILES ahead of Nadal v Verdy in USO10) that he beat him that easily. Idiot.

 

[Sharpshooter]

face it, you are a LIAR and hopelessly crappy at that.

1. I had already calculated FE for the 2 matches, so I knew how to calculate. If you knew how to calculate earlier, you wouldn't ask me how I did it. You just tried to worm your way out saying you were lazy at time. LOL, what a pathetic excuse !

2. You need to be clear when you write a formula, you don't make assumptions. But then you haven't learnt much, it seems

1. LOL I didn't lie about anything pal, I can dig my post up for you if you want, I asked you to show me where you got the FE stats from or if you pulled them from your arse. That's not an accusation so again learn how to read. I never asked HOW you did it I just wanted to see where you got them from. And at 2-3AM I couldn't be stuffed that's actually normal.

2. I'm not teaching a maths class this is a public forum, I didn't have to be clear because it was clearly obvious who's UE count needed to be used, FE cannot only be calculated with one player's W AND UEs you obviously need the opponents UE's so you can subtract from total points. And if it pisses you off that I didn't specify who's UE's were required in my formula then good :mrgreen: I don't give a shi.t I know I had it right and so do you, but you can't stand it because you thought I didn't know and I proved that I did, so suck it up tosser.

and if I want to say thatyou are a FAKER and a LIAR for posting wrong scores, and that you didn't watch that match, I'll say it ! :lol:

Oh your hitting a nerve in me, ouch that hurts me so much. LOL I don't give a shi.t what you think about me because I don't think highly of a stupid **** that spends his life defending his boyfriend all day long in nearly every single Fed vs anyone thread anyway. I've only been arguing with you because you actually make me LMFAO with all the crap you post, you're actually a little entertaining because you were able to turn a post of mine that listed all of Fed's weak draws into a full blown out argument and all I have to do is respond to you and you're off your nut talking crap again and again making me laugh. Keep it up please.

let's get this straight:

you said fed's serve suffered that day because of rafa's returning and because fed fears him:

1. he's normally served against rafa. This was a rare occasion where he didn't

2. if he were that nervous , wouldn't his ground play also suffered a bit ? but no, it was one of the best matches he played against rafa from the baseline. How did it give it his best on the groundstrokes, but serve that pathetically ?

1. He's normally served against Rafa? Really, you think? Nah can't be, I'm pretty sure Rafa is the only one who serves every time they play.

2. Because he went for more on his first serves when he was under pressure and couldn't nail them. His ground play was helped by Rafa not being at his best due to the fatigue of the semi final. BTW I'm talking mental fatigue here, Rafa is the toughest mentally but even he found it hard to keep up such a high level over two gruelling matches. He made more UE's against Fed than Verdasco despite Verdy taking him 5hours and 14 mins.

that looks like the retort of a 10 year old kid.. LOL, can't even come up with an original retort !

Oh stop you're offending me so much its hurting my feelings. I'm still laughing at all your posts

 

[Sharpshooter]

LOL, like rafa has never lost matches where he's won more points ! rafa is better mentally , but fed is no slouch either.

He didn't play badly on clutch points in AO 2005 SF by any means.

madrid 2010 was a case of the player who played less worse ( rafa ) winning. Neither of them played well

But then this is just typical of your clueless posts here

WTF are you talking about Madrid for? Mandy brought that up not me, besides Rafa won more points and won so what's the point anyway? Tell me which BIG match Rafa has lost in which he won more points? You'd be VERY hard pressed to find any. He's lost 3 five setters in his career IIRC they were Hewitt AO05, Fed Miami 05 and Fed 07 Wim. Doubt he won more points in those matches. You don't have a clue which matches Rafa had more points but lost, yet I'm the clueless one. Face it if you knew, you would've mentioned it -> Back to wikipedia for you!

 

[Sharpshooter]

no clueless, he lost serve twice after that because he was serving crappily and rafa was playing better off the ground than him in those games

you don't break twice in a set if you are in a state of fear - referring to fed breaking rafa twice in that set of course

WTF do his serves have to do with his return game? Fed's SERVE was under pressure not his whole game, besides Rafa wasn't playing his best either, he played well enough to win. Like I said before he had more UE's in the final than the semi despite it going a good 50 mins longer and also despite the fact that Verdy's groundstrokes had more bite to them than Fed's and he played more clean than Fed did too. So Rafa wasn't at his best yet he still beat him.

 

[abmk]

I said that the drama determines the greatness of the match as long as the quality isn't bad. That match was of bad quality.

you said it was a fight/challenge only if it went to five sets, it wasn't about greatness here

Well, he only won the match so I guess yeah it didn't work.

Fed was under more pressure in that match than probably any other match in his career. He was trying to tie Sampras' record in GS wins and he was the overwhelming favorite because everyone expected rafa to be tired. Once he realized that Rafa was going full tilt and attacking him he fell apart on serve.

yes, he won, because he was mentally tougher and fed served cr*p, and not because he was able to break down fed's BH

his serve fell apart, yet, his groundstrokes were very good . They didn't fall apart, did they ? If he was that nervous, would've shown up in his ground strokes to some extent, right ? Read my next post as well for more regarding this.

Also, wouldn't he have been more nervous right after her went down 2 sets to love vs nadal at wim 08 than right at the start of the match in AO 2009 ? Yet , he served excellent in wim 08 final even after going down 2 sets to love.

Who are you to tell me I'm incorrect because of your opinion? He also had another struggle in either the second or third round IIRC and yes Fed did play brilliantly, but Djoko in USO10 form would've at least won one set IMO. If you don't agree too bad I don't care.

djoker played better in USO 2009 SF as he did in ANY match in USO 2010 .

he only had a minor dip in play vs wheaton in 3R, but that's it.

Well what is it then? Of course it's an excuse and a stupid one at that. You say Djoko did better than Fed in 08RG BUT only because Fed played crap. That is an excuse.

its not, just stating what happened.

No I don't need it, I know he played better off the BH side in that match, I didn't deny that, just saying his BH was much more solid in Wim08 and that is true for the whole tournament.

his BH was better in wim 06, he hit winner after winner and didn't make many UEs of that wing either

Yes he did have nerves in 08, also didn't deny that so WTF are you on about? All I said was he was able to overcome the nerves in 08 whereas in 07 he didn't because he wasn't as experienced.

nadal had more opportunity to recover in wim 08 than in wim 07.

Well then it was Rafa 's inexperience that was the biggest factor to Fed having good years from 04-07. Had the Rafa of today been around back then, things would've been MUCH more different, you'd have to have shi.t for brains to think that Fed would've been as dominant with a prime Rafa around...oh wait.

well, he'd have been less dominant, no doubt, but fed would still be #1, as he's better on anything except clay

Hewitt always fights, he has been known throughout his career to be a fighter, Verdy doesn't have the same qualities; two completely different players. Verdy plays well through confidence and he started confidently because he could sense that Rafa was off the mark a little at the beginning of the match and he hit through the tough windy conditions quite well until Rafa upped his game.

BUT ask yourself this, was Hewitt ever in a commanding position in any set? Verdy was, just saying...

one break up in windy conditions , yeah very commanding ..I'm not expecting verdy to fight like hewitt , hell no. should've atleast tried to hold his own and not make UEs (incl DFs) galore !

LOL at you saying Djoko was more damaging off his FH side which is clearly his weaker side and is known for its instability.

I put forward a conditional statement , saying that only if he was playing well. I also said his BH is his better wing overall. But you can't read , can you ? :lol:

Again, I said that score going off memory. Reason being was that Gonzo was no challenge after requiring shoulder treatment and Fed cleaning his UE's up after the first set. The only one here that's clueless is you saying that Gonzo played fairly well when he CLEARLY didn't. And the funny thing is you said that to defend Fed's AO07 draw which was MUCH easier than Rafa's USO2010. Djoko provided a decent challenge, no one in AO07 put up anything close to a challenge and they all played average. Plus Verdy was MUCH tougher than a hapless Roddick who could only manage to win 6 games. BUT according to your stupid logic he played better and it was only because Fed was superman in disguise (and played MILES ahead of Nadal v Verdy in USO10) that he beat him that easily. Idiot.

yes, fed in AO 2007 SF was MILES ahead of rafa in USO 2010 QF

and you are clueless about fed-gonzo match

I'lll reply to the rest of the posts later