What is the end game for college tennis? What's the point?

[graycrait]

Interesting. I can think of only a couple of points. Title IX to support female scholarships and probably high roller support for mens programs. A tertiary reason might be providing more internationals for a backwater uni that is overwhelmingly US enrollment dominated.

I kind of wish all collegiate sports were just internal club sports, given that several college sports are essentially pro sport farm clubs

 

[EloQuent]

Yet again, is "contacts" just another unchecked assumption that everyone just nods in agreement?
Has anyone ever verified this? Does anyone know someone who got a job from a tennis teammate?

I know ex-D1 players. They have not used this mythical contact network to get anything.
They are not even living in the same city as one other player from their team.
Tennis has literally zero effect on their adult lives. They want nothing to do with tennis.

You really don't have a clue what networking is, do you.

Let me try to explain. The goal isn't to get a job coaching at a country club. It's to get to know people who can help you get a job so you can be a club member.

 

[Ace of Aces]

I know a former D3. While they did not spend $80k living at IMG, they dedicated a large part of their childhood towards tennis. They also spent a lot of money on coaching. The bottom tier of D3 is UTR8 or 9. That is 4.5 As a kid, You don't get to 4.5 within a few years of playing without some serious coaching. So my point holds for all tiers. You don't get to even D3 unless you dedicate massive effort towards tennis. All for what ?

There are plenty of 15 and 16 year old kids that have reached UTR 8 and 9 without tennis even being their primary sport. I reached UTR 10 in college and i never played competitively until 16. Had a teammate who was a UTR 11 and tennis was his third sport in high school behind football and basketball. There are also kids who play almost everyday take lessons and never reach the level to play entry level junior tournaments. Just because you happen to be in the latter group don't assume everyone else shares your limitations. UTR 8 to 9 is pretty easy to achieve for decent athletes. Also, it does make financial sense for some people. I was able to get paid to go to school because of receiving both athletic and academic scholarships. My teammate was able to go to an out of region community college with a better academic reputation than he would have otherwise. A player on the D2 school I attended was from a poor family from Brazil and was taught to play by a family member. He would not have been able to go to a four year school without his athletic scholarship.

 

[Mrs.Weasley]

I know a former D3. While they did not spend $80k living at IMG, they dedicated a large part of their childhood towards tennis. They also spent a lot of money on coaching. The bottom tier of D3 is UTR8 or 9. That is 4.5 As a kid, You don't get to 4.5 within a few years of playing without some serious coaching. So my point holds for all tiers. You don't get to even D3 unless you dedicate massive effort towards tennis. All for what ?

You don't need to devote massive amounts of time to achieve an 8 UTR, and the bottom tier of D3 is well below an 8.

To answer your question, "All for what?" My kids will tell you because they love tennis. They played tennis most days of their childhood because they enjoyed it. They are playing in college because they enjoy it. College tennis has also been a huge stress buster and respite from their crushing academic demands. One of my kids texted me yesterday that he had taken his last final exam as an undergrad, proctored by his coach at a hotel in Kzoo. College tennis has been the highlight of his 4 years of college and he will be sorry when it ends this weekend.

He has a job waiting for him in a new city. One of the first things he plans on doing once he gets settled is to join a tennis club.

 

[Chadalina]

I know..lol. He probably can’t grasp the difference. I kind of like seeing D3 because I play with a guy who just graduated and played #2 on his D2 school. Guys like that you can learn a lot from because they are not at the crazy high level of natural skill thatalot of the D1 players have.

I played a couple years in jr college, you would be shocked at the talent at #1. Bryan bros played for a college in corpse crispi (texas sp), lost to the same guys i did in doubles, davis cup uk jr's.

Made it to the semis, guy who won took two rounds in canada and one at the ao. He was better than agassi when they were in same group at 18.

Probably the best player ive ever seen and ball boy'd for sampras (free tickets and back stage).

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You don't need to devote massive amounts of time to achieve an 8 UTR, and the bottom tier of D3 is well below an 8.
.

I'll disagree with that.
Most players never make it past 3.0
Some serious players make it to 3.5, after playing for many years. (Many get stuck here for life)
A very select minority who devote 10 years of serious training to the game might make it to 4.0
4.5 is a unicorn that you almost never see in real life.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You really don't have a clue what networking is, do you.

Let me try to explain. The goal isn't to get a job coaching at a country club. It's to get to know people who can help you get a job so you can be a club member.

I never said anything about teaching tennis. I am talking about any career path (law, finance, medicine)
I stated that their tennis contacts from college have no influence on their career.
Not one guy I know who played college tennis got a career job due to their tennis network.
So, that is why I am pushing back on this supposed "networking" benefit. Seems way overhyped. Nepotism is very risky these days.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

There are plenty of 15 and 16 year old kids that have reached UTR 8 and 9 without tennis even being their primary sport. I reached UTR 10 in college and i never played competitively until 16. Had a teammate who was a UTR 11 and tennis was his third sport in high school behind football and basketball. .

UTR8 is a 4.5

If a 16 year old is a 4.5, at what age did he start playing tennis.
I suspect it would take at least 5 years of full-time effort to reach this level.
At age 15, that is a third of your entire lifespan to date.

I reached UTR 10 in college and i never played competitively until 16.

Seems like a loaded statement.
What age did you start playing tennis?
I am guessing at least 5 years before you played competitively.
That puts you at age 11 when you started, and 16 when you were so serious that you traveled to tournaments and started spending thousands on hotels.
Then you played thru age 22 in college. That's 6 more years of near daily tennis obsession to reach your peak senior year.
So, you act like it was no big deal, but the math does not lie. You were massively into tennis from age 11 to 22, a full decade and half your entire lifespan
that you devoted to serious tennis. That is no joke, and that is why you reached the unicorn level of UTR10.

UTR10 is so rare in adult life that when a UTR10 takes the court, people stop and stare.

 

[Mrs.Weasley]

I'll disagree with that.
Most players never make it past 3.0
Some serious players make it to 3.5, after playing for many years. (Many get stuck here for life)
A very select minority who devote 10 years of serious training to the game might make it to 4.0
4.5 is a unicorn that you almost never see in real life.

I must be surrounded by unicorns then. My husband, who never played tennis until until his 20s and never had a lesson in his life started out as a 3.0 and moved up to 5.0 within a couple of years. I could provide many other examples, but I think it would fall on deaf ears.

 

[ClarkC]

People can name a handful of ATP tennis stars,
but I don't think anyone knows the name of any NCAA winner ever.

Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Mikael Pernfors, Somdev Devvarman, Ryan Shane, Thai-Son Kwiatkowski. Claim refuted.

 

[NastyWinners]

Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Mikael Pernfors, Somdev Devvarman, Ryan Shane, Thai-Son Kwiatkowski. Claim refuted.

Benjamin Becker, Bob Bryan, Bradley Klahn, Marcos Giron, Amer Delic. Even more claims refuted.

 

[NastyWinners]

Oh don’t forget Mike Leach, not to be confused with the football coach.

 

[Deacon Drive]

You can't possibly make the argument that the NCAA championship is a well attended event.
I bet it is family members mostly.

First, there is almost no footage of this online.
2018 does not even exist.

There were thousands at the 2018 championship (I would estimate 5000 at the men's championship match). Here's a video - every single seat was full and there were several rows of standing room only (and this video only shows half the crowd)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/999074375407210496

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I must be surrounded by unicorns then. My husband, who never played tennis until until his 20s and never had a lesson in his life started out as a 3.0 and moved up to 5.0 within a couple of years. I could provide many other examples, but I think it would fall on deaf ears.

Yes, that is basically unheard of.
If you posted that claim on this forum, you would be called delusional.
("5.0 on the internet is actually a 3.5")

People come to the forum every day and ask "How long until 5.0?"
They are basically laughed at.
I think 10 years seems to be the case for most players, for the 1% that actually get to 5.0

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

That's a solid crowd at the Wake Forest win. Good stuff.
But, my point still holds. The typical match is nothing like this.
The reality of tennis excellence, is that it is a very lonely sport, particularly at the ATP ranks.
Very few people can even comprehend what goes into a college level player.

 

[EloQuent]

I never said anything about teaching tennis. I am talking about any career path (law, finance, medicine)
I stated that their tennis contacts from college have no influence on their career.
Not one guy I know who played college tennis got a career job due to their tennis network.
So, that is why I am pushing back on this supposed "networking" benefit. Seems way overhyped. Nepotism is very risky these days.

I can say that I know people who played college sports and have better careers than they would have otherwise.

 

[Nacho]

You can't possibly make the argument that the NCAA championship is a well attended event.
I bet it is family members mostly.

First, there is almost no footage of this online.
2018 does not even exist.

In 2017, there are more people at a local high school basketball game.
Does anyone have a photo of the stands behind the camera ?

Photo from the NCAA's in 1985

 

[mikej]

What is the end game of starting this thread? Trying to talk motivated people out of high level pursuits they enjoy? Curing your boredom? Just go outside, enjoy some nature, and cut this stupidity out.

 

[PhxRacket]

@mikej for the win!

 

[Nacho]

Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Mikael Pernfors, Somdev Devvarman, Ryan Shane, Thai-Son Kwiatkowski. Claim refuted.

Amer Delic
Dennis Ralston
Bob Bryan (Of the Bryan Brothers...)
Steve Johnson
Benjamin Becker
Charles Paearell
Arthur Ashe
Dan Goldie
Mikael Pernfors
Tim Mayotte
Kevin Curren
Bill Scanlon
Tony Trabert
Dick Stockton
Stan Smith
Bob Lutz

To add a few more....been playing NCAA's as long, and even longer, then the grand slams...

 

[tennisjunky]

All athletics should be removed from the university system.

They should be entirely separate and NOT supported but the university in any way!!!

Tennis is a great life time game but it should have ZERO support from universities!!!
If should be organized separately.
ZERO VALUE and a waste of $$$!!!!

 

[am1899]

^^ Here we go with this nonsense again.

If you don’t like the relationship between sport and higher education in the US, you might consider a moving to another country (it’s not changing anytime soon).

 

[ClarkC]

^^ Here we go with this nonsense again.

If you don’t like the relationship between sport and higher education in the US, you might consider a moving to another country (it’s not changing anytime soon).

At the very least, move to a different message board.

 

[TennisHound]

College sports doesn’t really serve any real benefit to the university. It’s just competition. For tennis, it’s just a Visa program for foreigners to have pathway to citizenship/ residency.

 

[Ace of Aces]

UTR8 is a 4.5

If a 16 year old is a 4.5, at what age did he start playing tennis.
I suspect it would take at least 5 years of full-time effort to reach this level.
At age 15, that is a third of your entire lifespan to date.

I reached UTR 10 in college and i never played competitively until 16.

Seems like a loaded statement.
What age did you start playing tennis?
I am guessing at least 5 years before you played competitively.
That puts you at age 11 when you started, and 16 when you were so serious that you traveled to tournaments and started spending thousands on hotels.
Then you played thru age 22 in college. That's 6 more years of near daily tennis obsession to reach your peak senior year.
So, you act like it was no big deal, but the math does not lie. You were massively into tennis from age 11 to 22, a full decade and half your entire lifespan
that you devoted to serious tennis. That is no joke, and that is why you reached the unicorn level of UTR10.

UTR10 is so rare in adult life that when a UTR10 takes the court, people stop and stare.

Didn’t own my own tennis racquet till 14 and didn’t play more than 3 days a week till college practices. Never paid for private lessons either. Spending a few hours a week hitting with friends and meeting new people was infinitely more rewarding to me than sitting inside playing video games which is what a lot of kids my age did with their free time. Not sure if you’re serious or not judging by your impressive lack of knowledge on the subject. Speaking as someone who say a lot of kids my age spend 5-6 hours a day on video games, we really need more kids to play tennis, basketball, baseball, golf or really anything physical. Would never recommend anyone take up any sport just to get a scholarship but if you enjoy it and happen to show some natural ability why not take advantage.

 

[bobleenov1963]

There were thousands at the 2018 championship (I would estimate 5000 at the men's championship match). Here's a video - every single seat was full and there were several rows of standing room only (and this video only shows half the crowd)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/999074375407210496

I think your post is very misleading about the 2018 championship. It was hosted at WF in 2018 so a lot of local people showed up. That's why.

It was hosted in USTA Orlando and if you look at the number of people in the stand, less than 1000 and I am very generous with that number. Most people will not spend money to travel to Orlando to watch the NCAA tennis. They rather spend that money at either GS or ATP 1000/500 events.

 

[andfor]

I think your post is very misleading about the 2018 championship. It was hosted at WF in 2018 so a lot of local people showed up. That's why.

It was hosted in USTA Orlando and if you look at the number of people in the stand, less than 1000 and I am very generous with that number. Most people will not spend money to travel to Orlando to watch the NCAA tennis. They rather spend that money at either GS or ATP 1000/500 events.

Got to think attendance will be better in 2021 (I think) when it comes back to Orlando and the resort next door is complete. I really would like to go to Stillwater, OK. If I go I'm bringing my sticks!

 

[bobleenov1963]

I never said anything about teaching tennis. I am talking about any career path (law, finance, medicine)
I stated that their tennis contacts from college have no influence on their career.
Not one guy I know who played college tennis got a career job due to their tennis network.
So, that is why I am pushing back on this supposed "networking" benefit. Seems way overhyped. Nepotism is very risky these days.

Those benefits are real and I can tell you that from both my son and mine experiences.

My son attended one of the "elite" prep private secondary schools and he played varsity tennis for the school. His UTR was around 11 at the time. The tuition cost was 50k/yr but since he was recruited, I only had to pay 20K/yr with 30K/yr in Financial Aid. He ended up playing at the #1 position for the school. At the start of his sophomore year, I lost my job and could not afford to pay the 20K on my part. One of the parents on team stepped up and took care of the 20K tuition for my son. Another parent on the team, who happened to be a CFO of a fortune 1000 company, got me hired at his company with a better salary than the previous job that I was let go from. Heck, I don't even play tennis. I just happened to benefit from tennis because of my son.

My son ended up playing at a D3 college where one of his team mates has a father who is an Executive VP at a financial services company and my son got the internship after his sophomore year in college. My son was told that he got leap frog over 40 candidates and was handed the internship with great pay. After he graduated from college in economics, he got a job from another team mates who uncle is a big shot at a big think tank "non profit".

Three years ago, one of his high school tennis team mates who is now working for a private equity firm, talked his father who is one of the partners of the firm, into hiring my son. My son is now making so much money that he does not know what to do with it. None of this could have happened without the contacts that he knows through tennis.

Some food for thought....

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Did you pay back the father who spotted you the $20k ?

 

[bobleenov1963]

Did you pay back the father who spotted you the $20k ?

The parent who spotted my son 20k for his education didn't want it back. They donated $3M to the school. Their exact word to my son and I: pay it forward

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Ok, so you did offer.

 

[EloQuent]

I believe this should conclude the thread since OPs question has been answered.

 

[Chadalina]

Werent you spending like $400 a week on lessons as a 3.5? Thats alot of money for the occasional $6 trophy in a local tournament/league, what exactly is your end game as a player?

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I believe this should conclude the thread since OPs question has been answered.

Or you could just leave and let people discuss what they want.
You don't own this site.

 

[EloQuent]

Or you could just leave and let people discuss what they want.
You don't own this site.

I don't? Huh. Guess I can't argue with the truth of that statement.

While we're talking about true statements, have you conceded that your question has been answered and apologized to everyone you attacked in the thread? Just curious.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Werent you spending like $400 a week on lessons as a 3.5? Thats alot of money for the occasional $6 trophy in a local tournament/league, what exactly is your end game as a player?

My end game?
To develop pretty strokes.

But, spending 2 years on tennis
is a far cry from devoting your life from age 8 to 22
and perhaps a $500,000 investment.

I have never gotten a trophy, and do not expect to.
I tend to always play up.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I don't? Huh. Guess I can't argue with the truth of that statement.

While we're talking about true statements, have you conceded that your question has been answered and apologized to everyone you attacked in the thread? Just curious.

Didn't attack anyone
Time to put you on ignore.
Good luck with your development.

 

[EloQuent]

My.... development? lol

 

[NastyWinners]

My.... development? lol

Hahahaha it’s best to ignore him. If your answer to his question doesn’t fit the narrative he is trying to create then you’re either 1) ignored 2) ignored 3) ignored and then put on his ignore list.

Dude can’t handle criticism or a differing opinion.

 

[NastyWinners]

Those benefits are real and I can tell you that from both my son and mine experiences.

My son attended one of the "elite" prep private secondary schools and he played varsity tennis for the school. His UTR was around 11 at the time. The tuition cost was 50k/yr but since he was recruited, I only had to pay 20K/yr with 30K/yr in Financial Aid. He ended up playing at the #1 position for the school. At the start of his sophomore year, I lost my job and could not afford to pay the 20K on my part. One of the parents on team stepped up and took care of the 20K tuition for my son. Another parent on the team, who happened to be a CFO of a fortune 1000 company, got me hired at his company with a better salary than the previous job that I was let go from. Heck, I don't even play tennis. I just happened to benefit from tennis because of my son.

My son ended up playing at a D3 college where one of his team mates has a father who is an Executive VP at a financial services company and my son got the internship after his sophomore year in college. My son was told that he got leap frog over 40 candidates and was handed the internship with great pay. After he graduated from college in economics, he got a job from another team mates who uncle is a big shot at a big think tank "non profit".

Three years ago, one of his high school tennis team mates who is now working for a private equity firm, talked his father who is one of the partners of the firm, into hiring my son. My son is now making so much money that he does not know what to do with it. None of this could have happened without the contacts that he knows through tennis.

Some food for thought....

That’s pretty awesome. Am I allowed to share your story with parents/children at the high school I coach at?

 

[EloQuent]

Hahahaha it’s best to ignore him. If your answer to his question doesn’t fit the narrative he is trying to create then you’re either 1) ignored 2) ignored 3) ignored and then put on his ignore list.

Dude can’t handle criticism or a differing opinion.

yeah I was bored so I decided to go for it lol

 

[ClarkC]

Another troll who should not be fed. Just ignore him.

 

[Chadalina]

Another troll who should not be fed. Just ignore him.

He isnt very popular here but he does put alot of time in on court. He was a 3.0 a year or two ago now a solid 4.0 from the last video i saw.

My end game?
To develop pretty strokes.

But, spending 2 years on tennis
is a far cry from devoting your life from age 8 to 22
and perhaps a $500,000 investment.

I have never gotten a trophy, and do not expect to.
I tend to always play up.

Your strokes look alot better than they did.

 

[jcgatennismom]

@TimeToPlaySets Parents dont have to pay $40-$80K a year to develop a player who can play D1 tennis. Now there are parents who pay a lot of $ for their kids to board at an academy in Cali or Florida or to travel to 3rd world countries to earn points in grade 4 or 5 junior ITFs. I knew a kid who was a 5 star while training at a small academy, switched to an expensive academy where one kid played at grand slams, spent enormous $ on travel including a trip to Dubai for a junior iTF, and ended up dropping in level-this year the guy only played one dual match at a middle mid major. However, many parents spend a lot less and wait to the high school years to spend $15-$20K a year. Others make it to a D1 lineup playing just 6-8 USTA tourneys a year and high school tennis with free training if their mom or dad is a teaching pro. Some of those guys are UTR 12+ and just spent $5-6K a year on travel, strings, racquets, etc. Some parents spend that much or more on SAT training, tutoring, college counselors, etc.

If a player is really talented, often coaches will give him/her a discount on training because the other players want to hit with that player. Players don't have to start at 6 or 8 to reach a top 100 national junior ranking. To play D1 tennis, most players started playing local and/or sectionals tourneys by the 12s (maybe they played rec tennis at 9 or 10) but there is really no need for nationals until 16s or 18s. Many players also played soccer or baseball at least part of middle school. True the guys who play 1-3 at top college teams as freshmen/sophs probably were homeschooled for 6 years and traveled the world on parent's or USTA PD's dime, but those are only a handful of the hundreds of US kids who play D1 tennis and there are thousands who play D3. My son was a 4/5 star (4 star in 14/16s, 5 star in 18s) who played multiple sports until 12, went to public school (averaged 12-14 hours of training a week plus weekend tourneys), and still found time across those years to hike, kayak, mountain bike, snowboard, play basketball with friends, etc. Tennis was a priority but not his sole interest. One of the highlights of playing tennis for him was meeting coaches and hitting with players from six different continents prior to college at US tourneys or local academies-primarily the latter as he only played 4 junior ITFs in high school and two were local. (Internationals train here and contribute to US GDP). He went biking with a former tennis Olympian from another country, and he got to warm up pros at an ATP event. He would have never met those interesting people without tennis. Tennis also motivated him to make good grades because he knew we would stop paying for tourneys and training if he didnt keep a 3.5+.

In college, athletes including tennis players have priority for registration and housing and access to tutors as needed. There is a return on the tennis investment-it may not be in dollars, but in experiences.

 

[silentkman]

Actually I think college tennis players are much more likely to play recreational tennis after school than college football players are likely to play recreational football.

No offense, but that makes no sense.

 

[MrFancypants]

Holy guaca-trolly Batman.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I am in awe of these juniors
They have strokes that look ATP by age 15.
I can not even fathom the kind of work they must put in.
Most adults are simply incapable of even understanding what goes into a "real" tennis player.

So, serious training begins by age 9, if they are playing competitively at 12.
It takes at least 3 years to gain real skills, I would imagine.
As for people who do not spend $80,000 a year,
what is a typical junior training week? How much is a more normal monthly budget?
I know one guy who spend about $40,000 a year. That comes to about $3500 a month.

How does one make it onto the top 100 national juniors ?
What if you're good, but do not play tournaments?
Is the list distorted ?

 

[MrFancypants]

So creepy.

 

[dsb]

TTPS, what would you have these kids do? Kids these days spend inordinate amounts of screen time, that's basically useless, they used to hang out at the mall (I don't know if they still do...), their parents are dropping them into this or that to make up for the time they themselves have to spend at work, and they still have way too much time on their hands to get into trouble... My own kid, who's been a year round swimmer since he was 9, as well as being in the H.S. band, seems to always be on his phone or tablet ( he has the 6th highest GPA in his class, so i'm pretty sure his school work is getting done...).

Yes, the tennis kids spend a lot of time at it, but they have a lot of time to invest, or waste... If the parents are able and choose to spend money on their kid's tennis that's their choice, and it's not like they wouldn't have spent that and more on some other sport or activity for the kid. Little league whatever has turned into travel whatever, and what used to be rec level sports has turned into a billion dollar youth sports tourism industry.

In my own jr. career, born and raised in Miami, I did a few 10U tournaments and got more serious from 12U on. While I did have a lesson with Boleterri back in the day (he was still in Miami then) I didn't ever do the academy thing. Somewhere around the 16's I was doing multiple lesson per week as well as paid hitting sessions with college kids, in addition to peer practices and what not. Mind you, I was still in public school and still had time to race motocross, run a couple season of track in H.S., play Freshman football, and get into trouble with my friends.

My Dad and I butted heads, I chucked it, and spent the remainder of my Sr. year smoking pot, so much so that I almost didn't graduate. Because I'd had offers but decided to quit, my parents weren't willing to foot the bill for college, so i ended up in the Army just to get out of the house. I ended up getting my Bachelor's degree from a lessor university than i could have played for, and paid for it to boot...

So perhaps college tennis has some value if for no other reason than alternative paths might not be so positive...

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

So creepy.

Cant handle a discussion about the grueling demands of tennis development ?