What is the magic serve ingredient most players miss?

[oldhacker]

At a recent team practice night at my club we had a bit of fun with a speed radar gun. There were about 20 guys all in the strong 3.5 to weak 4.5 range. And it was amazing to find that all but 4 of them had a fastest serve in the 85-90 mph range. Of the other 4 two could hit 120mph and the otehrs were about 75mph. They had all sorts of serving styles from long slow wind up with knee bend to low toss, fast arm and no knee bend. But at the end of the day they could not get over 90mph. So it strikes me that typical club players must be missing something in their serve which puts a ceiling on what they can do with it in terms of speed at about 90mph. Yet it seems that players who get this magic ingredient can get well over 100mph.

Anyone have any idea what this hard to find part of the service action which most players lack is? My best guess is that it lies somewhere in the elbow and wrist positions in the takeback and release / pronation.

 

[drakulie]

^^^ I posted this in my serve thread. Most people in the category you mention can't eclipse the 100 mph mark, or even the 90 mph mark. I took my speed gun out one day and many, many people were shocked when they couldn't even hit the 90 mph mark. Of course they were shocked because they swore they were hitting over 100 easily.

To answer your question, I belive these people can't get to the higher speeds because their swings are not fluid, and they are trying to muscle the ball.

 

[kevhen]

How tall were the biggest servers? Height does help as you can whip your racquet faster. Most club players do hit around 80mph when not serving to a radar and trying to get the ball in. But some can hit 100+ too. Usually these guys are just more athletic, smoother relaxed swing, practiced motion with good toss. Taller the better as well.

 

[Lindros13]

Taller the better as well.

Don't run out and buy clogs, because I doubt it will help much.

 

[shindemac]

It's because most beginning servers make the same mistakes. Simply put, they don't use the rest of their body aka arming/muscling the ball. The magic number seems to be 90. If you are less, that means you are arming the ball. The corollary is if you are more, that means you are using the other parts of your body to generate more power.

These are pretty powerful statements. That means if someone is arming the ball, you already know their top speed even without a radar gun. That's why a lot of the claims of people serving 100 are bogus.

Was there any relation between the people who hit 85-90mph and their ability to hit the back fence in one bounce? With so much data, this could be an interesting debate to settle.

 

[AndrewD]

Most club players don't hit the ball at the peak of the toss, don't throw the ball far enough into the court, don't watch the ball closely enough, don't put any or enough shoulder into the serve and drop their head (even if only marginally) before they strike the ball. Not surprising that they don't generate a lot of pace.

 

[deluxe]

Most club players don't hit the ball at the peak of the toss...

Well its nice to have one thing in common with most of the pros.

 

[oldhacker]

The 2 big servers (120mph plus) were both about 6ft1 so not that tall. One is 15 and the other 50. What they do have in common is that they are both big boned with naturally big frames and both pretty overweight (fat not muscle).

How tall were the biggest servers? Height does help as you can whip your racquet faster. Most club players do hit around 80mph when not serving to a radar and trying to get the ball in. But some can hit 100+ too. Usually these guys are just more athletic, smoother relaxed swing, practiced motion with good toss. Taller the better as well.

 

[oldhacker]

I was not looking at the back fence. But I do know that on a hardcourt I hit the back fence (18-20ft) on one bounce - sometimes as high as 4 feet - and I rarely get over 90mph and never above 95mph.

Was there any relation between the people who hit 85-90mph and their ability to hit the back fence in one bounce? With so much data, this could be an interesting debate to settle.

 

[drakulie]

oldhacker, were the serves landing in the box??

 

[AndrewD]

Well its nice to have one thing in common with most of the pros.

When you're a pro you can do whatever you like. Until then....

 

[Tennismastery]

While height is helpful to getting a fast serve in, it has little to do with the manufacturing of speed. I have hit serves in demonstrations at clubs and during workshops with radar guns standing only on my knees and hit over 85 mph (and getting the serves in) to show students that size is not the absolute key to generating fast serves that are in.

The idea of hitting serves at the top of the toss is irrelevent. Making contact at or near the top of your swing is relevent. Less than one percent of any top college players, top junior players and, of course pros, toss to the peak of their reach...with most of these top players, the lowest tosses found are still around 6 inches above the players contact point. Many players are well over a foot to two feet above contact point on the toss.

While there are a few teaching pros pontificate that the toss should be only as high as the contact point, it might serve to recognize that about the only players who practice this bit of misleading advice are those stuck at the 3.0 or 3.5 levels. The vast number of high performance teaching pros and those who teach higher levels of players teach the toss higher than contact. Obviously not several feet, but at least one foot.

Those who say it is much harder to hit a ball dropping from a higher apex than the contact point are using misleading concepts. A ball dropping from a foot above apex is falling at less than 5 mph. Heck, my 8 year old daughter has no trouble hitting a ball moving this slow. (With slice and kick no less!) Even at the 3.0 level, most players have no trouble hitting a 40 or 50 mph return of serve or volley, so why would anyone actually think that hitting a ball that is moving 5 mph be so difficult to hit? It is because such pros are totally ignorant about the dynamics of teaching an effective serve.

Ironically, a low toss is perfect for those who use an eastern forehand, waiter's grip service motion since these players typically face the net and push the serve into the service box...instead of generating not just proper racquet head speed, but also a swing path that generates the proper axis of spin.

The point of this is to remind players that using inadequate service techniques will have domino effect on the entire service motion. And as such, those who use such ineffective service patterns tend to use other elements such as a low toss, stepping through with the wrong foot, swinging with the arm, and other negative elements that contribute to poor serve results.

 

[Swissv2]

While height is helpful to getting a fast serve in, it has little to do with the manufacturing of speed.

Very true. A short girl on our team can do 90+ mph serves that are in. Consistently. (the speed was measured)

 

[JHBKLYN]

Anyone have any idea what this hard to find part of the service action which most players lack is? My best guess is that it lies somewhere in the elbow and wrist positions in the takeback and release / pronation.

Most people aren't born with the talent to be able to serve fast. If all it took was technique, then we would all be serving 130+mph. Technique can help increase your mph a bit but there is a cap of how fast you can serve. It's just like a baseball pitcher or a strong-arm quarterback, if you are blessed with the talent, it's much easier, if you aren't blessed, then no matter how much you practice or what super-duper technique you have, your serve is not getting over 90mph.

 

[travlerajm]

1. Most club players don't yank the racquet down fast enough from the trophy position. Rather, they just let gravity drop the racquet down. This causes them to lose out on a huge power source, because the racquet doesn't get as low, so it can't accelerate upward over as long a distance. Also, the yank-down allows you to use your shoulder carriage muscles like a spring.

2. Most club players don't lean their hips out into the court, so they can't explode forward into the court with their legs. Instead, most club players tend to jump and land only a foot or two inside the baseline. A really big server will land with his front foot 3 to 5 feet inside the baseline.

 

[Trinity TC]

Most club players...don't throw the ball far enough into the court...

2. Most club players don't lean their hips out into the court, so they can't explode forward into the court with their legs. Instead, most club players tend to jump and land only a foot or two inside the baseline. A really big server will land with his front foot 3 to 5 feet inside the baseline.

All thing being equal, tossing the ball well into the court seems to be the difference. An instructor friend of mine with a 120+ mph serve did an experiment and found that he could barely break 100 mph with a vertical toss and his normal swing. He said that he had the sensation that he was hitting it harder but the speed was down by 20 mph.

Another observation he made was that his hardest serves felt light on his racquet. It's the same sensation as hitting a homerun in baseball which is a sweet swing where the sweet spot of the bat meets the sweet spot of the ball.

 

[oldhacker]

Yes - we only counted serves which landed in the box. Also from memory there was no marked difference between the speeds of players fastest in and out serves.

oldhacker, were the serves landing in the box??

 

[SFtennisGG]

I would say for most recreational players its the toss.

 

[madmanfool]

Obviously the toss is very important. A serve goes and stands with the toss.
I think that it's very important to get some shoulder action going.

 

[grizzly4life]

i find really delaying the shoulder turn and NOT opening up too early is key.

biggest serve i've ever faced by far, thinking 110-120, was a very athletic guy, but i thought it was his wrist snap that brought alot of power.

 

[Mikael]

I was not looking at the back fence. But I do know that on a hardcourt I hit the back fence (18-20ft) on one bounce - sometimes as high as 4 feet - and I rarely get over 90mph and never above 95mph.

I'm very surprised that you can hardly break 90mph even though your serves are hitting the back fence up to 4ft high! You must be putting a lot of topspin, or there's something I don't understand... In my experience, on a hard court, a fairly flat serve that hits the back fence 4ft high is at least a 100 mph serve (assuming of course the serve is in).

 

[grizzly4life]

I'm very surprised that you can hardly break 90mph even though your serves are hitting the back fence up to 4ft high! You must be putting a lot of topspin, or there's something I don't understand... In my experience, on a hard court, a fairly flat serve that hits the back fence 4ft high is at least a 100 mph serve (assuming of course the serve is in).

i tend to agree, although i did a ratings session with a guy who didn't have huge velocity but hit the fence really far up. i'm thinking 6 feet up. and i could never figure out how he did it. i tried to emulate but not ever close..... i wonder how his serve would work in a match.

 

[JohnYandell]

It's the racket position at the bottom of the drop.

Very rarely do I film a player below world class level who gets this position right.

All the other stuff can help create energy that goes into the motion upward to the ball, and the toss needs to be in the correct place.

BUT unless the racket is positioned to travel the correct path upward using the two elements of the upward swing--elobw extension and hand and arm rotation--it's wasted time and effort.

That's why I have to smile when I read some of the tortured discussions about stance, shoulder rotation, etc etc.

The racket should fall along the player's right side, pointing directly downward with the shaft perpendicular to the court. The face of the racket should be perpendicular to the plane of the torso.

A lower elbow position is better (horizontal being the typical pro position) but most players don't have the flexibility for this and need the elbow higher and more forward.

Whatever it takes to make this position--it is the most basic building block.

 

[drakulie]

A really big server will land with his front foot 3 to 5 feet inside the baseline.

3-5 feet is a lot. Most pros do not land that far inside the basleine. Heck Sampras only landed about a foot inside the baseline.

5 feet is just ridiculous.

 

[ohplease]

Having once seen top D1 college players playing at the same courts at the club at which I usually play, the big differences I noticed were:

1) Hip stretch. All the college kids engaged their hips in a way that I never see club players do.

2) Wrist pronation. Big time. It was like the difference between how live an arm will look when playing catch in the backyard vs. during an MLB fastball.

I don't think there's any real big secret. Club players will harness enough of the available kinetic chain to get by. Really big servers will harness more. In truth, 80-90 mph serves at the club level are plenty considering the caliber of the returns or groundstrokes on the other side, anyway.

 

[Trinity TC]

That's why I have to smile when I read some of the tortured discussions about stance, shoulder rotation, etc etc.

My eyes glaze over when I read that stuff.

The racket should fall along the player's right side, pointing directly downward with the shaft perpendicular to the court. The face of the racket should be perpendicular to the plane of the torso.

A lower elbow position is better (horizontal being the typical pro position) but most players don't have the flexibility for this and need the elbow higher and more forward.

Whatever it takes to make this position--it is the most basic building block.

Agreed. I get my students to make the big drop and wide arc on the take back on the serve. I con them by using the old conservation of angular momentum shtick.

 

[oldhacker]

SO no real concensus yet on what most club players are missing. But I am sure there is an answer. My main reason for thinking this is that most club players peak at 90moh yet those I know who get beyond this and hit 100mph all seem to be bale to hit 120mph from time to time so there seems to be a big step up (30mph/33%) in max speed. This indicates a major factor is missing in the serves of most players.

My opinion is that it is related to arm position in the wind-up and pronation at impact. My main reason for saying this is that I have a permanent shoulder injury which has hindered my ability to serve. Before the injury I used to arm the ball somewaht on serving. That is no longer an option for me unless I want no sleep for 2 months so I have been working hard on finding ways to generate pace without over-exerting the shoulder. And I have found that by working on maximising pronation (something I never thought about before) and tossing ther ball a bit more out in front I can still serve at 90mph without putting any strain on my shoulder.

BTW - I am relieved to see that nobody has mentioned weight training as an answer. I do not think it makes a whole load of difference in reaching the 100mph mark. I used to pump a lot of iron (but none for 15 years) and it has made no difference to my serve. Also the guys I know who hit 120mph plus are the least pumped up specimens I can think of at my club. Also I know a couple of guys who used to play top 300 ATP but do do not play tennis any more, are the wronng side of 35 and never work out, but if you persuade them onto a court they can still hit 120mph without much problem.

And I am not sure it is necessarily down to some inate natuaral talent that 80% of club players hit a wall at 90mph. For example I have (or did before my shoulder died) a very fast arm and could throw a ball further than my mate who was a top 50 junior in the world and can serve at 120mph.

 

[Bodacious DVT]

i was actually just talking about this with my coach.

"point of contact and properly timed weight transfer" she said. she used the example of justine henin's small body being able to crank out massive serves. she obviously doesnt have alot of muscle to put on the ball, so we then must look at her technique: proper weight transfer and contact point.

she also said that when you focus on making the right contact point, the toss will follow.

thats my two cents.

 

[donnyz89]

hahaha my coach brought the radar gun to practice and there were some surprises lets put it that way.

two of the biggest guys in terms of lifting weights could not get 90, one of them hit a few high 80s, and the other could hit 75 at best, most land in the mid 60, low 70s.

and here i am, 5 foot nothing and 90 lbs (ok, a lil more), and im second on the team in terms of speed, with a 95 as my highest. the winner of the contest served up a 103 down the T.

its harder than it seems... but even that, the results are not that useful because I rarely go for those bombs in a real match...

 

[shindemac]

LOL, it's because of this forum. What was your avg speed?

 

[kthomas]

i got my serve clocked 4 years ago. it was 113mph. i'm 21 now. i dont think it really matters how fast a serve is. anyone can bomb a flat serve. hitting a serve with pace and spin is more effective

 

[Kobble]

The lesser players do not fire ther arm in the proper sequence. Many fire the wrist and the elbow too early. If you do not hold the unhinging of the racquet late enough, all energy is wasted. What Yandell says is a larger extension of this problem. Watch the serve videos on player development. All the best servers fire the arm in the order of elbow and wrist at the maximum seperation. Also, check out the impact position of Hingis, it is late. Whereas Philippoussis is right on.

 

[oldhacker]

Only a small number of my serves hit 4ft up the back fence and I would say that those are the ones which, although intended as flat, have a decent element of unintended topspin - or it hits a stone or bump in the court surface. But I am sure they are no faster than 90-95mph. I reckon my truly flat 90mph flat serve hits the back fence 2-3ft up on average.

I'm very surprised that you can hardly break 90mph even though your serves are hitting the back fence up to 4ft high! You must be putting a lot of topspin, or there's something I don't understand... In my experience, on a hard court, a fairly flat serve that hits the back fence 4ft high is at least a 100 mph serve (assuming of course the serve is in).

 

[Clive Walker]

I have what would probably be considered a pretty hard serve at club level, when I had a go on a radar gun (in a tent at Wimbledon actually) I produced a best of 85mph. Admittedly I wasn't warmed up, using an odd racquet and old balls but I can't see me adding much more than 10mph to this. -I'm sure it's less than 100 anyway.

As for the back fence question- I usually hit it a couple of feet up when going down the T. There will be some spin on it though as I rarely get my wrist in position to hit a fully flat serve.

 

[deluxe]

When you're a pro you can do whatever you like. Until then....

When there is something that all pros do the same way, thats something you should take notice of. You suggest that not hitting the ball at the peak of the toss is a reason for diminished power. There is no biomechanical reason to believe that is the case. If anything the reverse is true, since the higher you toss, the faster the ball will be falling at contact, the greater the relative speed between the racket and ball, the greater the component of topspin on your serve. Greater topspin -> Hit harder and still get it in.

 

[SlapShot]

I think that a huge thing is staying loose during the serve. I actually serve better when I'm grooving serves on a day, and I'm not concerned with my motion at all. On days that I'm having trouble, my motion tends to tense up, and I struggle to put real pace on the ball.

 

[sureshs]

A really big server will land with his front foot 3 to 5 feet inside the baseline.

5 ft seems excessive.

 

[BillH]

It's the racket position at the bottom of the drop.

Very rarely do I film a player below world class level who gets this position right.

All the other stuff can help create energy that goes into the motion upward to the ball, and the toss needs to be in the correct place.

BUT unless the racket is positioned to travel the correct path upward using the two elements of the upward swing--elobw extension and hand and arm rotation--it's wasted time and effort.

That's why I have to smile when I read some of the tortured discussions about stance, shoulder rotation, etc etc.

The racket should fall along the player's right side, pointing directly downward with the shaft perpendicular to the court. The face of the racket should be perpendicular to the plane of the torso.

A lower elbow position is better (horizontal being the typical pro position) but most players don't have the flexibility for this and need the elbow higher and more forward.

Whatever it takes to make this position--it is the most basic building block.

John - what about a player like Roddick with an abbreviated take-back. The last year or so I started using this abbreviated motion thinking I was removing an opportunity for an extra hitch in the motion. I also believed I was getting more power by concentrating on the forward thrust of the racquet instead of all the take-back motion. Have I robbed myself of extra power? Or is there a way to incorporate your suggestioins on racquet position with this kind of motion?

On a second reading of your post - are you describing the take-back that occurs from the "trophy position" onward (after the intial drop of the racquet while the left hand is raising the ball).

 

[Kevo]

I don't think there's any magic to it really. Most people do the same wrong things over and over again. Myself included. I worked on my serve for quite some time when I was younger until I thought it was fast enough. Now for me speed is not the issue. It's spin and placement that really do the trick. I do hit some big aces now and then, but I can't do it consistently. I can place the ball and spin it more consistently now, and that makes for much easier service games. You can ace pretty much anyone with a well placed 100mph serve.

 

[AJK1]

It's all about racquet head speed and hitting the sweetspot. Simple physics show that the faster your racquet hits the ball at the sweetspot, the faster it will propel. Acceleration from the time the buttcap is facing the ball to when it hits the ball and then follows through. It's all like a catapult. Acceleration speed at the strike point is the key.

 

[oldhacker]

A few more observations I would make from watching club players and videos of myself serving are:

1. Those who have a decent leg bend element to their serve tend to use it more to jump up than forward. I think this helps with adding topspin but that in order to add speed you need to use the leg power to get you moving forwards into the court.

2. Few club players toss the ball far enough out in front (this ties in with lack of forward momentum from legs) to get big speed on their serves. I think this is because the timing of a serve with the ball tossed well in front is much harder (requires a very controlled and well timed leg thrust into the court) in order to make proper contact. When I try to toss the ball more out to the front and use my legs to get me into the court the ball flies when I catch it right (I have never clocked one of these serves) but when I get it wrong I am looking at a ping pong serve !

3. I think many club players get their arm position in the controlled stage of the windup wrong as they tend to overflex the elbow and over-rotate the shoulder which means that the racquet is too far around their backs and too close to their bodies to get the linear racquet travel distance which generates the accleration needed for a 100mph serve. I used to be very guilty on this front but now I am trying a much simpler takeback with an almost straight arm (elbow only slightly bent rather than fully bent) with the wrist fully supinated.

4. I think most players get the wrist bit completely wrong and miss out a lot on pronation. Of course you naturally pronate when you throw the arm (and if you did not you would hit the ball with the edge of the frame) but I think most players just let this natural pronation happen rather than thinking aboutb controlling the timing of it and maximising the effect of it. In fact I think many players actually lose out on pronation by trying to snap the wrist (as in move the palm towards the forearm) which is only a small and weak movement rather than concentrate on pronation.

 

[papa]

It's the racket position at the bottom of the drop.

Very rarely do I film a player below world class level who gets this position right.

All the other stuff can help create energy that goes into the motion upward to the ball, and the toss needs to be in the correct place.

BUT unless the racket is positioned to travel the correct path upward using the two elements of the upward swing--elobw extension and hand and arm rotation--it's wasted time and effort.

That's why I have to smile when I read some of the tortured discussions about stance, shoulder rotation, etc etc.

The racket should fall along the player's right side, pointing directly downward with the shaft perpendicular to the court. The face of the racket should be perpendicular to the plane of the torso.

A lower elbow position is better (horizontal being the typical pro position) but most players don't have the flexibility for this and need the elbow higher and more forward.

Whatever it takes to make this position--it is the most basic building block.

Good stuff here - this is what its all about folks.

 

[Swinging Simian]

What is the magic serve ingredient most players miss?
A good pushoff the ground, before hitting up into the ball. That and not everyone is gifted with a shoulder and elbow that allow them to throw a 90mph fast ball.

 

[35ft6]

Honestly? Practice. Most players simply do not practice serves enough, like setting time aside to do nothing but serve baskets of balls.

 

[shindemac]

Honestly? Practice. Most players simply do not practice serves enough, like setting time aside to do nothing but serve baskets of balls.

Yes, that's very true. That's a given for ALL strokes, but people don't want to hear that, esp. not for the serve which could be one of their weakest stroke. They'd rather be told if they do this or change that, then their serve will magically click and they're gonna be serving bombs and aces. I was trying to tell someone he needed to work on his serve, but he just brushed it aside and chalked it up to a bad day. It's very frustrating that people don't see their serve as a weakness, and they need to work on it.

As for me, I've worked on my serve, mainly topspin, for the last 2 or 3 years. It's a slow process, but I feel I'm getting better and learning a lot more. The thing holding me back the most now is my toss.

 

[oldhacker]

Personally I am not sure you need sone natural throwing gift to attain a fast tennis serve. Sure it helps and I know a guy who has pretty poor technique but an incredibly fast arm who can serve 110mph. Mind you he cannot hit many of them without really feeling it in the shoulder. But the I also know guys who have a worse or equall throw to me who can serve 120mph plus whereas I never topped 95mph. So I think mortals not blessed with a lightening fast arm do have the potential to serve fast given the right technique and sufficient practice.

What is the magic serve ingredient most players miss?
A good pushoff the ground, before hitting up into the ball. That and not everyone is gifted with a shoulder and elbow that allow them to throw a 90mph fast ball.

 

[oldhacker]

Not sure I agree with that. I have certainly practiced my serve more than any other shot and my shoulder problems are probably in part due to having hit 200 serves in a session a few times too many. I know many other club players who practice their serve a lot as well.

Honestly? Practice. Most players simply do not practice serves enough, like setting time aside to do nothing but serve baskets of balls.

 

[oldhacker]

Agree about the hip stretch and wrist pronation. I think you learn most from watching top players serve from side on (something you rarely get on TV). We have a D1 player at my club and when I watch him practicing serves I am struck by how far out behind him he gets him arm and racquet before exploding to the ball and creating the 'lag' which causes the dropping of the elbow / forearm to the horzontal plane and the raquet to a vertical plane.

Having once seen top D1 college players playing at the same courts at the club at which I usually play, the big differences I noticed were:

1) Hip stretch. All the college kids engaged their hips in a way that I never see club players do.

2) Wrist pronation. Big time. It was like the difference between how live an arm will look when playing catch in the backyard vs. during an MLB fastball.

I don't think there's any real big secret. Club players will harness enough of the available kinetic chain to get by. Really big servers will harness more. In truth, 80-90 mph serves at the club level are plenty considering the caliber of the returns or groundstrokes on the other side, anyway.

 

[sureshs]

I have seen a couple of guys with bad technique hit very fast serves (by club standards). In fact, the two fastest servers at my club (that I have seen) are overweight. One is quite obese and not tall. The other is not that overweight but he is very tall. Both don't like to "move" and are basically lazy in all aspects of their game. However, they possess great upper body strength to just whack the ball very very hard.

I think we may be underestimating this aspect - i.e., brute force. In another thread about the Amelia Island event, a poster mentioned how he/she volunteered at the speed booth and a professional player of some other sport who had never played tennis hit a 104 mph serve on the first attempt.

 

[drakulie]

4. I think most players get the wrist bit completely wrong and miss out a lot on pronation. Of course you naturally pronate when you throw the arm (and if you did not you would hit the ball with the edge of the frame) but I think most players just let this natural pronation happen rather than thinking aboutb controlling the timing of it and maximising the effect of it. In fact I think many players actually lose out on pronation by trying to snap the wrist (as in move the palm towards the forearm) which is only a small and weak movement rather than concentrate on pronation.

I couldn't agree more. Check out this thread where the "wrist issue" is discussed in great detail in both the forehand and serve. Even when shown example after example of high speed video proof, people still get it wrong. the video links start at post # 26.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=127448&page=2