What is the most rpm of topspin a rec player could hit?

thomasferrett

Hall of Fame
We know that Nadal gets an average of 3750rpm at roughly 90mph on his topspin forehands. When really going for it he can probably get somewhere between 5500 to 7000rpm on his topspin forehand.

On his backhand I'm not so sure.

So, if you take a GOOD rec player (thinking around a 5.0 to 5.5 standard), how much topspin do you think they can hit on forehand, and then backhand if they are really trying to hit a hyper-spinny shot?

I would guess that on the forehand it might be as much as 2000rpm, and on the backhand it would probably be around 1500rpm if a one-hander and around 1000rpm if a two-hander. The mph would obviously be a lot lower than 80mph as well.
 

Maximagq

Banned
If I wanted to hit exclusively spin though, I'm pretty sure I can get closer to 3000 rpm on the forehand. My average is probably high 1000s or low 2000s.
 

fourtylove

New User
For the last 2 years I was hitting A LOT of topspin with my forehand - so much that it transformed to the reverse forehand. Since I am from europe I have no idea about my rating but guessing from videos I saw I should be around 5.5.

At a 1. league club where I practiced we measured the spin with a high speed cam:

When only going for spin I had a few balls around 5000 and one ball with 5500 - but I have to say that those balls had ABSOLUTELY NO SPEED.
Any good player would just take them on the rise and crush them back :D
 

YarikA99

Rookie
If the rpm is 1000 or below then that is pretty much flat, so i bet that most 5.0 and 5.5 get about 2500 or 3000 on average for their forehand.
 

Lukhas

Legend
Well with the review of the new Pure Drive line, we were able to see shot speed and spin averages of the TW playtesters who are mostly between 4.0 and 5.0 exception made of Andy, Michelle and Britanny who play Open. It's not that loopy on average frankly.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Rec player.....old man with no strokes, maybe 20.
Rec player.....21 year old ex D-1 prospect, maybe 4,000.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
Depends… If spin is all I am supposed to go for I am pretty sure I can get to around 4000. Normal rally balls would be in the 1000-2000 range though most likely, my backhand being slightly flatter (two hander).
 

thomasferrett

Hall of Fame
Are you guys sure?

It seems odd that rec players (even good rec players) should be getting close to Nadal's topspin - even if they are hitting nowhere near the same pace for that amount of topspin.
 

julian

Hall of Fame
How do you produce your posts?

We know that Nadal gets an average of 3750rpm at roughly 90mph on his topspin forehands. When really going for it he can probably get somewhere between 5500 to 7000rpm on his topspin forehand.

On his backhand I'm not so sure.

So, if you take a GOOD rec player (thinking around a 5.0 to 5.5 standard), how much topspin do you think they can hit on forehand, and then backhand if they are really trying to hit a hyper-spinny shot?

I would guess that on the forehand it might be as much as 2000rpm, and on the backhand it would probably be around 1500rpm if a one-hander and around 1000rpm if a two-hander. The mph would obviously be a lot lower than 80mph as well.
Read http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2009/05/22/the-count-the-spin-on-nadals-clay-dominance/
Read http://www.advancedtennis.com/results/groundmen.htm
Read the title of my post as well
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
late 50s rec player would rate about 4.0 now but played higher successfully when younger. My topspin FH varies from not many where you can see the rotation as the ball label turns at the slowest to a nice tight rotation where all you see is the spin and cannot track the label or seams. The slow rotation is probably 200-400 RPM while the tight one is probably around 1500-2000 RPM but I am guessing.

5 rotation per second would be 300 RPM so that's pretty slow RPM and a relatively flat ball.

25 rotation per second would be 1500 RPM and that's pretty fast RPM for me.
 

Maximagq

Banned
Are you guys sure?

It seems odd that rec players (even good rec players) should be getting close to Nadal's topspin - even if they are hitting nowhere near the same pace for that amount of topspin.

I don't see how this is odd. Nadal is hitting a match play ball and doesn't want to cough up a slow floater. The rec player hitting as much spin as possble and does not care where the ball lands.
 
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corners

Legend
We know that Nadal gets an average of 3750rpm at roughly 90mph on his topspin forehands. When really going for it he can probably get somewhere between 5500 to 7000rpm on his topspin forehand.

On his backhand I'm not so sure.

So, if you take a GOOD rec player (thinking around a 5.0 to 5.5 standard), how much topspin do you think they can hit on forehand, and then backhand if they are really trying to hit a hyper-spinny shot?

I would guess that on the forehand it might be as much as 2000rpm, and on the backhand it would probably be around 1500rpm if a one-hander and around 1000rpm if a two-hander. The mph would obviously be a lot lower than 80mph as well.

I think your estimates are off. 90 mph is too fast for Rafa's rally ball. He hits 90+ when flattening out for a winner. ("Flattening out" is relative when speaking of Rafa, though:)

As everyone knows, spin is proportional to racquet-head speed. An average ATP pro can achieve tip speeds of 80+ mph on the forehand side, with the elite forehands getting up to 90 mph. At these speeds, 5000+ rpms are possible.

At the 4.0 level, 65 mph max swingspeed is pretty typical. This is also about as fast as a super-fit female player, such as Justine Henin, could swing. Clearly, some athletic 5.0 players can swing more quickly than that. You can use this quite accurate shot simulator from TW University to work out just how much topspin various swing speeds can produce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVOYLgYqZn0
 
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xFullCourtTenniSx

Hall of Fame
We know that Nadal gets an average of 3750rpm at roughly 90mph on his topspin forehands. When really going for it he can probably get somewhere between 5500 to 7000rpm on his topspin forehand.

On his backhand I'm not so sure.

So, if you take a GOOD rec player (thinking around a 5.0 to 5.5 standard), how much topspin do you think they can hit on forehand, and then backhand if they are really trying to hit a hyper-spinny shot?

I would guess that on the forehand it might be as much as 2000rpm, and on the backhand it would probably be around 1500rpm if a one-hander and around 1000rpm if a two-hander. The mph would obviously be a lot lower than 80mph as well.

He can't hit 7k RPM on his forehand. He maxes out at ~5500 RPM. Federer maxes out at 4900 RPM last I heard.

Also, for reference, Agassi's forehand and backhand were measured at 1700 RPM. Sampras' forehand measured around 1800 RPM, and his backhand at 2000 RPM.

Now, aside from Maximagq and other confirmed relatively high level players who have a spinnier game, do you really think you hit with more spin than Agassi?

Then there's Bruguera who hits like 3k RPM average. Do you guys really think you could hit with more spin than that?

TennisCJC put things into perspective for you guys. 25 RPS is 1500 RPM. I don't even know if I can get that, and I hit with an annoying level of spin.
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Is there a way we could determine this? High speed cameras with time stamp information to determine exactly how many rotations per second we get?

I am curious as well.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
My topspin forehands (and as you all know I have become exponentially better since then) registered 1000 rpm in the Wilson Steam 99 playtest to which I was invited. This was with a Bab reference frame. With the Steam, the average was 1200 rpm.
 

corners

Legend
Is there a way we could determine this? High speed cameras with time stamp information to determine exactly how many rotations per second we get?

I am curious as well.

Yeah, you can count the revolutions and do the math. You just need a camera with a high frame rate. Higher than the 30 fps on youtube.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
900 to 1,200, from memory, seems to be the norm at TW if you look at data in the Drive video reviews.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
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Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
I am curious as to how much bite I get on my slice.. I've always had a very nasty skidding slice, and felt like it had a lot of action on it. What high speed camera would be suitable for this endeavor?
 

julian

Hall of Fame
Your link

I think your estimates are off. 90 mph is too fast for Rafa's rally ball. He hits 90+ when flattening out for a winner. ("Flattening out" is relative when speaking of Rafa, though:)

As everyone knows, spin is proportional to racquet-head speed. An average ATP pro can achieve tip speeds of 80+ mph on the forehand side, with the elite forehands getting up to 90 mph. At these speeds, 5000+ rpms are possible.

At the 4.0 level, 65 mph max swingspeed is pretty typical. This is also about as fast as a super-fit female player, such as Justine Henin, could swing. Clearly, some athletic 5.0 players can swing more quickly than that. You can use this quite accurate shot simulator from TW University to work out just how much topspin various swing speeds can produce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVOYLgYqZn0
The title of the link is
"Episode 149 - Horse Stance Exercises for Stronger Back - Hea"
Did you mean another link?
 

penguin

Professional
I reckon plenty of rec players will manage to hit a 5000 rpm ball with power from time to time if they are athletic and trying- just not consistently, not with reliable control and not very often... and thus probably contributing to a losing strategy on the percentages by attempting it!
Maybe that doesn't count...
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
How many rpms to make the ball look like a flying saucer? Not your avg rec player for sure, but had a partner back in my B level days that could hit with so much spin you wouldn't believe your eyes how flat the ball would get.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
With any compact high speed camera film at 240 frames, count the frames to make a couple of revs (or more revs if possible) then do some one variable algebra.
Combine that with the pocket radar gun.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
I don't know, I think this is the case where pros just make the game look too easy, I'd expect most good rec players to achieve ~1000 RPM and no more than 1500.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
How many rpms to make the ball look like a flying saucer? Not your avg rec player for sure, but had a partner back in my B level days that could hit with so much spin you wouldn't believe your eyes how flat the ball would get.

According to the conclusions of a previous thread, the spin causes the ball to look flatter but the ball itself does not become flatter.
 

tennis_ocd

Hall of Fame
According to the conclusions of a previous thread, the spin causes the ball to look flatter but the ball itself does not become flatter.
Call me unconvinced. I have little doubt the tennis ball takes on a real "egg shape" from heavy topspin (or slice but I virtually never see slice that good.)

I think these rpm numbers are inflated. Yandell states that Rafa *averages* 3200 rpm on forehand groundstrokes. imo, no way he gets close to that on 90 mph lasers.

(Interesting in that these guys get significantly more rpm on the slice.)
 

julian

Hall of Fame
You are cryptic and you are trolling again

According to the conclusions of a previous thread, the spin causes the ball to look flatter but the ball itself does not become flatter.
You are cryptic and you are trolling again
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Because he was a junior who could have gone on to a college scholarship

LMAO - almost all good players have a back around like that. If you don't get paid to play tennis (not teach) and/or have not been paid you are recreational.

Even teaching pros will play league tennis. Some will join open tournaments with prize money - if they win you can perhaps claim they are not rec - but even that is a stretch. You need to actually make enough money from playing tennis matches (not teach) to earn a living.

Virtually every 5.0 player or better I have met has had extensive childhood practice with a pro. These are not pros - they are just wealthy kids. It's the same with golf - such is life.

As for this thread I'd imagine some amateur can hit big numbers on some crazy nearly shank shot - where you swing out but kinda miss. This is especially true with underspin. I am not a great player but I did hit one ball that bounce on the opponents side and then bounce up onto our side. This was kinda a shank though - didn't meant to hit.
 
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mmk

Hall of Fame
Didn't Wilson have some numbers from rec players when they were first pushing their spin racquets? I think the numbers were in the 1000 rpm range.
 

tennis_ocd

Hall of Fame
LMAO - almost all good players have a back around like that. If you don't get paid to play tennis (not teach) and/or have not been paid you are recreational.

Even teaching pros will play league tennis. Some will join open tournaments with prize money - if they win you can perhaps claim they are not rec - but even that is a stretch. You need to actually make enough money from playing tennis matches (not teach) to earn a living.

Virtually every 5.0 player or better I have met has had extensive childhood practice with a pro. These are not pros - they are just wealthy kids. It's the same with golf - such is life.

As for this thread I'd imagine some amateur can hit big numbers on some crazy nearly shank shot - where you swing out but kinda miss. This is especially true with underspin. I am not a great player but I did hit one ball that bounce on the opponents side and then bounce up onto our side. This was kinda a shank though - didn't meant to hit.
Just random opinions -- probably no right or wrong, but I have trouble categorizing D1/2 men's scholarship players as "recreational" tennis... they are "getting paid" to play.
 

theSCdon

New User
Not sure how accurate it is, but according to the PlaySight courts they installed at my club most of my forehands are coming in around 1200-2400 rpm, while some of my lobs have registered up to 3000. I'm a 4.5 using a semi-western grip for reference.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Drakulie seems to be hitting groundstrokes alone in this short test. Given the diversity of shots you might hit over the course of a match the average would be far less.

On the flip side, we went to the playtest without warming up, were divided into groups, and called to the court randomly. We did not even have time to digest what was going on in the court but had to hit forehands immediately from fed balls (8 balls for each of the two frames).
 
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