What is the number one reason for framing the ball?

[wy2sl0]

My biggest problem bar none-framing. I try to hit with alot of spin despite the incoming ball speed, which leads me to hit the frame alot. I am thinking that I am not hitting "through" enough, but then just the other day I hit an insane approach shot swinging as hard as I can, with the ball just a couple meters for the net (I had no pressure, the match was essentially over) and the ball just exploded up and then down like it was on rails. Obviously this is what I am trying to do. Here is what I have realized.

1) I need to conciously step another foot to the left (I am right handed) on shots so my arm isn't against my body, slowing my swingspeed.

2) Take more steps closer to the ball, because when it begins to drop, it is much more difficult to "get under".

3) Stop moving my head during shots.

4) Practice, practice, practice swinging freely without worrying about missing, since that just leads to deceleration.

It has been getting worse though, so I am worried I am engraining bad technique into my game that is going to stay with me. I see alot of the terrible coaches around here that "tell" you the problem, but don't analyze it with you and help you overcome it. This is what I think I need.

Any opinions are appreciated. Thanks.

 

[LeeD]

Nobody's perfect?
The harder YOU make the shot, the less chances you will succeed.

 

[user92626]

There's no #1 reason. Everything needs to work its part and in synch to produce result.

IMO, your problem is you don't have a solid, complete understanding of the groundstroke techniques. The kind of understanding that leaves you absolutely no doubt and you can use as a checklist to troubleshoot issues.

Anyway, your "framing" problem could be from one or several issues. You can't or don't see the ball well. You're too violent or unstable with your swing. Your racket swings could be all wrong by how it comes into contact. You're not used to deal with shot that goes beyond a certain speed. On and on...

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

For a player with decent hand-eye and decent stroke mechanics, moving the head during the forward swing can result in a high number of mishits. Also, many players find it easier to control the FH using a double-bend rather than using an unbent (or slight bent) elbow like Federer.

 

[Mick]

many forum members would say the number one reason for framing the ball is you're using a racquet that is too small

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

select for larger image
​

 

[TheBoom]

#1 reason is they didn't watch forrest gump

 

[cghipp]

My #1 reason: Looking at my target instead of the ball.

 

[Larrysümmers]

#1 reason is they didn't watch forrest gump

This and timing. When I'm playing baseline ball I dont frame too much. But when he takes something off or I mistime the bounce, then I frame. Lucky for me, the prestige mid seems to be ok for shanks because it always seems to cause a heavy topspin moonball :~]

 

[Funbun]

Why don't you show us a video of your technique?

 

[TheIrrefutableOne]

For a player with decent hand-eye and decent stroke mechanics, moving the head during the forward swing can result in a high number of mishits. Also, many players find it easier to control the FH using a double-bend rather than using an unbent (or slight bent) elbow like Federer.

My #1 reason: Looking at my target instead of the ball.

CORRECT....................

try bounce....hit

say bounce the exact moment the ball bounces

and say hit the exact moment you hit the ball

Based on Sight !!!!!!!!!

 

[Power Player]

Definitely not keeping your eyes on the ball. But also closing the racquet face too much as well.

I used to do this a lot more until I went back to a semiwestern grip for a western. You want to start out by swinging slow and just making square contact with the ball. You will still hit with heavy spin if your strokes are proper.

 

[martini1]

I'd say eyes not on the ball at contact. This can cure 90% of the framing out there, if time is not an issue.

 

[stules]

A coach once pointed out to me, after seeing me frame a few volleys.......

"you are looking forward, so you can 'see' the ball, but you aren't looking at the ball"

A small but significant observation, that made a difference to me. I now
warm up and practice looking 'at the ball'. One trick is trying to read the brand name on the ball as it approaches.

ps, this also works on the serve.

Ciao
Stuart

 

[Donny0627]

My #1 reason: Looking at my target instead of the ball.

sam ehere...

 

[FedExpress 333]

sam ehere...

Sam Ehere.... is that your name?

We should make a club: the non looking at the ball and frequent framing club

 

[whomad15]

keep your head down and watch the ball, if you see your ball hit the net you're doing it wrong

 

[Ronaldo]

Close your eyes and swing. No more frames

 

[tennisdad65]

#1 reason: Not looking at the ball hit your strings.

However, Fed looks at the ball hitting his strings, but also has the most shanks I have ever seen. Maybe he needs glasses

 

[skiracer55]

What they said...

...as in, without video, there's no way to know. There probably isn't any one item, but watching the ball is probably the main key.

I think there is a clue, however. Go back and look at your original post. You shanked a bunch of balls and then you hit one great shot. What that tells me is that you don't have a consistent swing path. I suspect part of that is that you're trying to hard to impart spin. Just try for clean stroke mechanics, and the spin will take care of itself.

My real guess, however, is that the reason you're hitting inconsistently is that your footwork and preparation are lacking. Whenever a player is having trouble with a stroke, he or she immediately starts looking at the stroke itself (Low to high? Should I change my grip? Change my racket? Is it the strings?) when the problem is really what happens before the stroke. Or, more accurately, what does not happen.

There's something fairly simple that you can do that can bring this all together. A few years ago, Stan Smith wrote a really good article about how each player should find his or her ideal contact point for each shot. You can go to Fuzzy Yellow Balls or any of those places and get a general picture of where the contact point is supposed to be, but yours is likely to be slightly different from mine.

So once you've found that contact point, tennis is simple. Read the ball coming off your opponent's racket, prepare by changing the grip and turning your shoulders, and then run like hell to get to a place where a clean swing path will contact the ball at your ideal contact point...then swing and watch the ball onto the strings at the contact point.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

#1 reason: Not looking at the ball hit your strings.

However, Fed looks at the ball hitting his strings, but also has the most shanks I have ever seen. Maybe he needs glasses

In actuality, we are not really "looking at the ball hitting the strings". It is virtually impossible for our eyes to track the ball all the way into the strings most of the time. What Nadal, Federer and others actually do is to focus on the contact point, not the ball. High speed film reveals that Fed's eyes got to the CP slightly before the ball does. The ball only stays on the strings for about 4ms. The eyes stay on the CP and the head stays still quite a bit longer than that.

We may catch a brief glimpse of the ball near the strings (using saccadic tracking) but at best, we only see a blur -- hard to say if that blur is even before or after contact. The real benefit of keeping the eyes on the CP is that it keeps the head quiet. Moving the head during the forward string tends to throw off the swing path of the racket.

 

[user92626]

SA,

Doesn't the contact point consist of the ball hitting the racket face? Or do you mean before the ball arrives, in which case CP is empty?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

SA,

Doesn't the contact point consist of the ball hitting the racket face? Or do you mean before the ball arrives, in which case CP is empty?

In my epxlanation, the CP is the place in space where the ball meets the racket. Yes, it is empty space for the most part during the forward swing. Before contact, we might call it the expected contact point. The ball is only on the strings for about 4 ms. The racket moves very quickly thru the CP. However, the gaze is fixed at that point (or some other point for other players) for quite a bit longer -- before, during and after contact. Even if the CP is not where the gaze is fixed, it is still important to keep the head still

 

[user92626]

SA,

I'm not clear. Are you teaching that you should watch the ball (or the player) when he hits it, then track the ball -- but up to what point ? -- then jump (casca..something) your gaze to the empty CP? Is that the process?

 

[thug the bunny]

3) Stop moving my head during shots.

^+10,000

I love this subject because it is soooo much more important than any other tip or technique. Sure, footwork, shoulder turn, swing path, etc, etc, are important, but if you aren't focusing on the ball well, all of that is for naught. It doesn't matter where your feet are and how well you use your core if you're framing the ball.

I dunno about empty space, CP, and looking through the back of the racquet. When I am focusing on the ball well, as it comes down for the bounce, I am already in position, waiting in some sort of archer's pose...I see it bounce and come up in slow motion, I can see it spinning, and it just kind of hangs there...then I whack it with whatever kind of emphasis I intended. To me it looks as if the ball is hanging on a string in mid-space just waiting to be hit. Of course I don't see the strings hit the ball, that's way too fast, but I do see the ball VERY clearly right before impact. I think this looking-through-the-racquet and empty space stuff is over analyzing a bit...

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

SA,

I'm not clear. Are you teaching that you should watch the ball (or the player) when he hits it, then track the ball -- but up to what point ? -- then jump (casca..something) your gaze to the empty CP? Is that the process?

More or less. The eyes employ a (jump-ahead) saccade when the ball gets to within a couple of feet (or possibly even a couple of meters) of the CP, lying in wait for the ball to arrive. I never really specify exactly what point that jump-ahead happens. I don't really even mention the jump-ahead in most cases.

I have been trying a variation on some shots, particularly on serve returns. It's a double saccade. I'll track the ball (using smooth pursuit) coming off the opponent's racket for a while -- long enough to determine the bounce point. My eyes/brain execute a saccade so that they are lying in wait for the ball. I'll then track the ball (smooth pursuit) again for a while and then employ another jump-ahead to the CP. This is what elite cricket batsmen do when tracking the pitch. I don't do this all the time, but I do employ it every once in a while (when I remember to do so). I've had some decent results using this double-saccade technique. I've only mentioned it to a few student so far.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Note that Agassi and others stop tracking the ball several feet (1 or 2 meters?) before it gets to the CP. Even tho' he does not fixate on the CP , he does keep his head still for much of his forward swing.

 

[Xizel]

My #1 reason is not swinging hard and rather going for control and technical aspects. If I get "under the ball" and "swing up to generate topspin" instead of whipping the rubber out of the ball, that's when everything falls apart. My strokes aren't technical, they're more like instinctual.

 

[LeeD]

Are you saying to swing slower to lessen mishits?
You can push all day and hit few mishits.

 

[Xizel]

Are you saying to swing slower to lessen mishits?
You can push all day and hit few mishits.

I have to swing fast to be consistent. If I swing slower to control technical aspects (spin, direction, net clearance, etc.) against my natural instinct, I start framing. I'm sure a pusher can push endlessly with 0 errors, but I've never played like a pusher before, so I'm certain I'll fail at it, too.

 

[LeeD]

Oh sorry. I read post #28, thought is was you expanding on your theory of avoiding mishits.

 

[Ronaldo]

#1 reason has to be the frame, cannot be our swing.

 

[LeeD]

I blame the courts and the balls.
Wierd inconsistent courts, matched with 3 DIFFERENT tennis balls.

 

[r2473]

You're a collector

 

[user92626]

More or less. The eyes employ a (jump-ahead) saccade when the ball gets to within a couple of feet (or possibly even a couple of meters) of the CP, lying in wait for the ball to arrive. I never really specify exactly what point that jump-ahead happens. I don't really even mention the jump-ahead in most cases.

I have been trying a variation on some shots, particularly on serve returns. It's a double saccade. I'll track the ball (using smooth pursuit) coming off the opponent's racket for a while -- long enough to determine the bounce point. My eyes/brain execute a saccade so that they are lying in wait for the ball. I'll then track the ball (smooth pursuit) again for a while and then employ another jump-ahead to the CP. This is what elite cricket batsmen do when tracking the pitch. I don't do this all the time, but I do employ it every once in a while (when I remember to do so). I've had some decent results using this double-saccade technique. I've only mentioned it to a few student so far.

SA,
thanks for sharing. I'm gonna try single sascade next time I'm out. Honestly I have no problem "seeing" and hitting the ball. When I'm determined to play and focus, like the last two times, I don't even make one single shank. But then I'm using a 100 sq. racket and not exactly playing the "top tier" players at the park. I play with everybody else who are friendly...

Anyway, I digress. Why I asked earlier about what consists of the CP is that I think it's problematic to focus your eyes on an empty spot. Your sight will be out of focus. Perhaps this sascade thing is just a way to calm your mind and help it with anticipation rather than anything else, and thus you can execute shot better. I know that I play very well when I feel I can "cover" every aspect of my opponent's hitting (characteristics of his shots).

 

[goober]

Here I found the solution to all your problems- 137 sq. inches of pure power and near impossible to frame:

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

..

Anyway, I digress. Why I asked earlier about what consists of the CP is that I think it's problematic to focus your eyes on an empty spot. Your sight will be out of focus. Perhaps this sascade thing is just a way to calm your mind and help it with anticipation rather than anything else, and thus you can execute shot better. I know that I play very well when I feel I can "cover" every aspect of my opponent's hitting (characteristics of his shots).

I don't think that focusing on empty space is all that difficult or problematic. Actually, the eyes converge and focus at the contact area. Perhaps you need to visualize the expected CP to accomplish this. I suspect that you are already visualizing to some extent already. You probably have a pretty good idea of approx where the ball will bounce before it does. You move to some location on the court to intercept the ball. You are undoubtedly visualizing in order to do this.

The next step is to visualize the CP (or contact area) and focus/converge there. It is not really that important if your eyes are precisely focused on the CP, since your racket and the ball will both be a blur anyway (no matter how well you focus). Keeping the head still is the most important part -- it is probably not really that important to precisely focus on a chosen point.

 

[gahaha]

CORRECT....................

try bounce....hit

say bounce the exact moment the ball bounces

and say hit the exact moment you hit the ball

Based on Sight !!!!!!!!!

JS is back :O

 

[cghipp]

Sam Ehere.... is that your name?

We should make a club: the non looking at the ball and frequent framing club

I think my chronic target-watching has a lot to do with the fact that I used to be a fastpitch softball pitcher in HS. In tennis, it's like I'm looking to see if my shot is a ball or a strike. I was a decent batter, though, so maybe that theory doesn't really hold up...

 

[wy2sl0]

Thank you all for the tips. I will try to get a video of me playing next time. I am also going to try to concentrate on watching the ball. I played today, and played horribly. My swing is totally f*ed and now I am getting tight on my forehand swing and just pushing it, dumping alot into net.

I have days where I feel like I can hit the ball well for someone who doesn't get to play often, then other days where I feel I am doing way too much and I don't even know how to play.

 

[skiracer55]

See what I said...

Thank you all for the tips. I will try to get a video of me playing next time. I am also going to try to concentrate on watching the ball. I played today, and played horribly. My swing is totally f*ed and now I am getting tight on my forehand swing and just pushing it, dumping alot into net.

I have days where I feel like I can hit the ball well for someone who doesn't get to play often, then other days where I feel I am doing way too much and I don't even know how to play.

...in post #20. You don't really have a forehand, what you have is random shots on the forehand side. Your stroke mechanics, preparation, and so forth, are the problem. But it ain't gonna get fisxed if you don't get to play often, especially if all you do is play matches.

You need to go back to the woodshed, figure out how to hit a forehand, and practice what you've figured out until you get it right, and that's at least two to three hitting sessions a week. Then you can go back and play matches. While you're woodshedding your forehand, you might want to look at the rest of your game, too. So how's your serve, just out of curiosity?

 

[wy2sl0]

...in post #20. You don't really have a forehand, what you have is random shots on the forehand side. Your stroke mechanics, preparation, and so forth, are the problem. But it ain't gonna get fisxed if you don't get to play often, especially if all you do is play matches.

You need to go back to the woodshed, figure out how to hit a forehand, and practice what you've figured out until you get it right, and that's at least two to three hitting sessions a week. Then you can go back and play matches. While you're woodshedding your forehand, you might want to look at the rest of your game, too. So how's your serve, just out of curiosity?

I am the second person in this video (serve)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0_k_2ty4c


You are 100% right. My friends only want to ever play games, I never get to practice, and thats one of the reasons I am not getting better. I try to play at least twice a week, but only matches, with almost no rallies.

 

[skiracer55]

Well, there it is...

I am the second person in this video (serve)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0_k_2ty4c


You are 100% right. My friends only want to ever play games, I never get to practice, and thats one of the reasons I am not getting better. I try to play at least twice a week, but only matches, with almost no rallies.

...essentially, you have to decide where you want to go and what you're willing (or able) to invest in it. See these threads for a longer discussion of these issues:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=384480

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=375284

 

[Comet Buster]

- Timing
- Focus


If you're aiming to hit with as much topspin then framing the ball is natural. Skyricer has also mentioned it too; Footwork. Which could also effect the timing of your strokes.

 

[skiracer55]

I can't tell...

I am the second person in this video (serve)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0_k_2ty4c


You are 100% right. My friends only want to ever play games, I never get to practice, and thats one of the reasons I am not getting better. I try to play at least twice a week, but only matches, with almost no rallies.

...what you mean by the second person in the video, but it probably doesn't matter. Neither forehand went in, and both showed the same problems: no real footwork or preparation, and a less than optimal swing path. Time to go back to Ground Zero...

 

[wy2sl0]

...what you mean by the second person in the video, but it probably doesn't matter. Neither forehand went in, and both showed the same problems: no real footwork or preparation, and a less than optimal swing path. Time to go back to Ground Zero...

No no hehe, we were warming up on the first serve, not ralling I was trying to stop it, and the 2nd one is of me serving (shorter guy), that was during match play. I was standing on the T im not that bad