# What is the problem with my two handed backhand ?

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.

In this video we can see that the ball really interacts with the racket's frame. At the beginning back of the ball deforms and the strings stretch.. Frame during that time moved forward. Front of the ball almost didn’t move. When strings are stretching they pull the frame back. According to the third law of dynamics, the frame exerts a force on the strings in the other direction and strings exerts a force on the ball. The ball indirectly “feels” the frame. The front of the ball begins to move forward but in the first phase of its movement it has contact with the strings and during that time frame is moving. The effect of such collision depends not only on the speed of the frame but also on the effective mass of the frame. It is obvious and could be seen if we changed tennis racket for badminton racket and accelerated it to the same speed. The effective mass depends not only on the mass of the racket but also on how tightly it is connected to our body. By increasing the effective mass, we increase the speed of the ball, assuming that the speed of the racket frame is the same. However, increasing the effective mass of the racket requires holding it firmly, which usually slows down the racket's movement. Depending on the situation, a compromise must be found between the strength with which we hold the racket and its speed. If the approaching ball is fast we can recover much of its kinetic energy by holding the racket tighter. To hit the same ball with the same speed with a looser grip, we need to accelerate the racket's head to higher speed. The faster the racket speed, the less control we have as to the direction of the stroke. Power and control are equally important and a good player can find the right balance between two.
Please ... whatever you do ... I beg you ... do not use the word "absorb"

You may not get that reference, but others here will. I can't talk about that thread ... it damaged me mentally.

#### pencilcheck

##### Professional
I dont know why you posted this video. I have seen his videos million times. I watched it once more and saw that he takes the racket back leading his hands down not upward. Then stops movement of the racket and his hands move in the opposite direction. The distance on which the racket is accelerated is half of the distance in my technique. He can afford it because he is very strong. When I do what he does I generate less speed and less spin than using my technique. I tested it million times. Why do you want me to lose matches ? My backhand is my greatest weapon. It can compete with best forehands in my age category. They are accustomed to attacking backhand and usually when they play against me they dont win too many points on that side. My greatest problem is my injured wrist so the best tactics is to play fast forehands on my forehand. Above some speed of the ball my wrist can't stand the impact and I need to relax him. That is the reason why in some of my strokes from forehand I keep right elbow by my side. I just have to block the ball because my wrist is too weak.
Just pointing out because I feel that it is misleading.

Regarding your statement about how you have better acceleration and longer length etc. I don't think your statement is true, because if you are right, then you should be playing pro and beating Djokovic and those top pro because you have more acceleration and more pace with your technique, isn't it? Also how tall are you? I'm not sure if you are taller than Djokovic, let alone having the same arm length and flexibility as his.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Just pointing out because I feel that it is misleading.

Regarding your statement about how you have better acceleration and longer length etc. I don't think your statement is true, because if you are right, then you should be playing pro and beating Djokovic and those top pro because you have more acceleration and more pace with your technique, isn't it? Also how tall are you? I'm not sure if you are taller than Djokovic, let alone having the same arm length and flexibility as his.
I have never said that my backhand is more effective than backhand of Djokovic. He is stronger. Because of his strength he can use simple backhand and accelerate the racket on a shorter distance. Simplicity of his backhand allows him to repeat this stroke many times without an error. He can prepare for next shot in a shorter time. Amateur and older players using his technique wouldnt be successful in tennis. Most women in professional tennis dont use ATP forehand.

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#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Why doesnt it work as it should ? I tried to copy backhand of Monica Seles but it is not easy.
You should test yet another change you your two handed backhand. A long last step. It lowers the center of gravity and lengthens the path on which the racket is accelerated. Especially with low balls, this helps a lot. This also works very well with a two-handed forehand.

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
He acknowledges that players like Fed do roll the racquet back ... but in 8 minutes never offers a reason why. The "don't active wrist snap" (which should be phrased no active arm roll btw) cry has always been a red herring ... we do 1000s of active things in our tennis swing we are not aware of ... long ago filed away to muscle memory. When I learned a kick serve decades ago I'm sure I went through a lot of active progressions ... now I think about nothing other than intended location. Does that mean the "active" parts dissapeared ... get real.

Fed has both 1) arm roll ... and in some FHs ... 2) release of forearm/racquet angle (you often see it in his cc FHs). This leaves the rh down and back. That arm and rh ain't getting back to contact without some "active" ... others can decipher the percentages ... above my pay grade.

Instead of getting caught up in the "active" religious wars here ... I prefer just calling it "play at the hands" ... or more colorfully "hands loosey goosey". A rec players decision is not "no active or snap" ... all of that will work itself out with reps. The decision is whether or not to introduce lag (forearm/racquet angle) in your strokes or not.

For me ... for the 2hbh the answer was absolutely, for the fh ... that flip thing not for me, but kept some play at the hand (small lag) because feels more smooth than no lag at all. Said another way ... my guess is the average 4.5 would not help their game trying to add the flip to their FH, but most would gain adding some lag to their 2hbh. To me ... two arms and two hands should be working together as syncronized lag swimmers ... not as two static anchors.

btw ... the "why" does Fed do that not answered in the video. I think there were two main reasons 1) shorter stroke for the pace of modern game 2) more topspin ... max ts defined by rh path, not hand path... a Fed flip has a much steeper max rh low to high path than possible with a non-lag fh stroke.

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
I think this guy is thinking about hand path and not rh path.

Note the hand path below in the stroke, vs the rh path in a very short distance ... that is why the pros do this.

Is Nishikori's hand path radically different that Mac's ... no ... is his rh path ... YES.

#### Dragy

##### Hall of Fame
He acknowledges that players like Fed do roll the racquet back ... but in 8 minutes never offers a reason why. The "don't active wrist snap" (which should be phrased no active arm roll btw) cry has always been a red herring ... we do 1000s of active things in our tennis swing we are not aware of ... long ago filed away to muscle memory. When I learned a kick serve decades ago I'm sure I went through a lot of active progressions ... now I think about nothing other than intended location. Does that mean the "active" parts dissapeared ... get real.

Fed has both 1) arm roll ... and in some FHs ... 2) release of forearm/racquet angle (you often see it in his cc FHs). This leaves the rh down and back. That arm and rh ain't getting back to contact without some "active" ... others can decipher the percentages ... above my pay grade.

Instead of getting caught up in the "active" religious wars here ... I prefer just calling it "play at the hands" ... or more colorfully "hands loosey goosey". A rec players decision is not "no active or snap" ... all of that will work itself out with reps. The decision is whether or not to introduce lag (forearm/racquet angle) in your strokes or not.

For me ... for the 2hbh the answer was absolutely, for the fh ... that flip thing not for me, but kept some play at the hand (small lag) because feels more smooth than no lag at all. Said another way ... my guess is the average 4.5 would not help their game trying to add the flip to their FH, but most would gain adding some lag to their 2hbh. To me ... two arms and two hands should be working together as syncronized lag swimmers ... not as two static anchors.

btw ... the "why" does Fed do that not answered in the video. I think there were two main reasons 1) shorter stroke for the pace of modern game 2) more topspin ... max ts defined by rh path, not hand path... a Fed flip has a much steeper max rh low to high path than possible with a non-lag fh stroke.
We dunno why OP posted that vid exactly, maybe he thought that anti-wrist-flip-cry was to prove something. But most interesting thing is the coach actually advocates for full through extension and speaks about how breaking the swing and "snatching" the racquet from contact (what he calls wrist flip) is not what's optimal for most shots. So @grzewas wandered himself into muddle by claiming one thing and posting a controvert video.

#### 3loudboys

##### Hall of Fame
Great scene from a Classic film.

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#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
I think this guy is thinking about hand path and not rh path.

Note the hand path below in the stroke, vs the rh path in a very short distance ... that is why the pros do this.

Is Nishikori's hand path radically different that Mac's ... no ... is his rh path ... YES.

This comparison gave me a headache. But do continue, loving this thread!

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
I had 40 years of happy tennis without thinking about stroke technique. Then I find this place just looking for info on TE ... which led to 5 years of “no arming” and “no snapping” and “flipping and mini-ing and extending”. Rotation leads to armless tennis ... it’s all about the rotation in this modern game.

Along comes opposite man Gregory ... he says No ... start with your arm which will pull your shoulder around after ... that is a longer stroke best suited for the weak and feeble depends wearing rec players ... and the future of the modern game.

Did I miss anything? I am so confused. Makes me want to just give up and “absorb and pull across and stock up on depends”.

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
btw ... I think an arm suspended in air pulling the shoulder around is next level mind f******

#### 3loudboys

##### Hall of Fame

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#### grzewas

##### Rookie

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3 years ago when I played more ITF tournaments I was near #100 in ITF ranking in my category. We are talking about a player with injured right wrist. Very weak player. Let us assume that my technique is used by a person 30 % stronger and with healthy wrist. It would be a player in top 50 in ITF ranking. Most tennis players don’t even dream about it. It means that my technique is extremely effective. What is more important everybody can learn that technique because it is adjusted to amateur and older players. As I already wrote I return almost all serves not using slice. Even on fast surfaces. It shows how much control this technique gives me over the ball. If I was stronger and my wrist was not injured I could accelerate the ball to much greater speed and control would be even greater because of additional spin. I think that it is worth trying.

#### 3loudboys

##### Hall of Fame
3 years ago when I played more ITF tournaments I was near #100 in ITF ranking in my category. We are talking about a player with injured right wrist. Very weak player. Let us assume that my technique is used by a person 30 % stronger and with healthy wrist. It would be a player in top 50 in ITF ranking. Most tennis players don’t even dream about it. It means that my technique is extremely effective. What is more important everybody can learn that technique because it is adjusted to amateur and older players. As I already wrote I return almost all serves not using slice. Even on fast surfaces. It shows how much control this technique gives me over the ball. If I was stronger and my wrist was not injured I could accelerate the ball to much greater speed and control would be even greater because of additional spin. I think that it is worth trying.
I 100% appreciate your match play and I have enjoyed watching your vids. When it comes to technique we differ on what we feel is most effective. Whose to say that given your ability you may have gotten further incorporating some of the suggestions made in this thread.

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
3 years ago when I played more ITF tournaments I was near #100 in ITF ranking in my category.
Somene needs to take my Kindle away from me immediately.

#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
3 years ago when I played more ITF tournaments I was near #100 in ITF ranking in my category. We are talking about a player with injured right wrist. Very weak player. Let us assume that my technique is used by a person 30 % stronger and with healthy wrist. It would be a player in top 50 in ITF ranking. Most tennis players don’t even dream about it. It means that my technique is extremely effective. What is more important everybody can learn that technique because it is adjusted to amateur and older players. As I already wrote I return almost all serves not using slice. Even on fast surfaces. It shows how much control this technique gives me over the ball. If I was stronger and my wrist was not injured I could accelerate the ball to much greater speed and control would be even greater because of additional spin. I think that it is worth trying.

SO... how do players inside the top-10 ITF in your category play? Do they use your backhand? Or maybe this is one of those questions your won't answer...

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
I 100% appreciate your match play and I have enjoyed watching your vids. When it comes to technique we differ on what we feel is most effective. Whose to say that given your ability you may have gotten further incorporating some of the suggestions made in this thread.
My technique is based on limiting the number of degrees of freedom and using the strongest muscles of our body. I wrote about it in my second thread.

1) In forehand your right elbow should be bent all the time. When you take the racket back, during the stroke and after it.

2) Don’t use wrist to generate spin. Do it using elbow.

3) In two handed backhand your left elbow should be bent all the time. You will never play like Djokovic.

4) Limit the movement of the right elbow in two handed backhand.

5) Use neutral stance in backhand.

6) Use neutral stance in forehand. Use open stance only if the ball is far on your right side.

7) Finish your forehand and two handed backhand using arms and not using rotation of your body.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
SO... how do players inside the top-10 ITF in your category play? Do they use your backhand? Or maybe this is one of those questions your won't answer...
Players in top 10 ITF are not 30% but 200% stronger. I cant remember any player in +50 and +55 category who had better backhand than mine. To beat me they had to hit a lot of forehand winners or they had very good forehands and were excellent volley players. My passing shots are very precise but when they hit very fast balls my wrist cant stand the impact and passing shot is precise but not fast enough for good volley players.

#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
Players in top 10 ITF are not 30% but 200% stronger. I cant remember any player in +50 and +55 category who had better backhand than mine. To beat me they had to hit a lot of forehand winners or they had very good forehands and were excellent volley players. My passing shots are very precise but when they hit very fast balls my wrist cant stand the impact and passing shot is precise but not fast enough for good volley players.
Given your wrist limitations, it doesn't look like it's very hard to be stronger than you.

In fact, it looks like you're one of the weakest players in your category.

Which means that... a lot of people are stronger than you and can play their backhands stronger than you.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Given your wrist limitations, it doesn't look like it's very hard to be stronger than you.

In fact, it looks like you're one of the weakest players in your category.

Which means that... a lot of people are stronger than you and can play their backhands stronger than you.
They try to use "modern" backhand so I have a great advantage on that side. Those who use one handed backhand playing against me are forced to use only slice. During last 5 years in tournaments only one player using one handed backhand created problems for me on this side. Maybe because I had too loose strings. I was forced to attack his forehand. He was in the lead 5:1 in second set but after I changed direction of my balls to his forehand I won 7:6. First set I won also 7:6. A month before this match he won 1 category ITF tournament in Świnoujście(Babolat)

#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
Let the record show you didn't answer my question. We're also NOT talking about 1HBH!!!

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
They try to use "modern" backhand so I have a great advantage on that side. Those who use one handed backhand playing against me are forced to use only slice. During last 5 years in tournaments only one player using one handed backhand created problems for me on this side. Maybe because I had too loose strings. I was forced to attack his forehand. He was in the lead 5:1 in second set but after I changed direction of my balls to his forehand I won 7:6. First set I won also 7:6. A month before this match he won 1 category ITF tournament in Świnoujście(Babolat)
You need a catchy name to market this arm constrained technique.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Let the record show you didn't answer my question. We're also NOT talking about 1HBH!!!
I wrote about "modern" two handed backhand. Usually they stop the racket behind them like Djokovic so it cant be a good stroke.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
You need a catchy name to market this arm constrained technique.

What you think is an error is the greatest advantage of my technique.

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
What you think is a mistake is the greatest advantage of my technique.
Go with "The Penguin" ... everyone loves them.

#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
I wrote about "modern" two handed backhand. Usually they stop the racket behind them like Djokovic so it cant be a good stroke.
Your posting is like your game, just relentless. This post is me doing an UE...

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Go with "The Penguin" ... everyone loves them.
It's my last year in the +55 category, so this year I'm just trying to get used to playing against the best players. I avoid tournaments in which I am the favorite. My plan for next year is to be in the top 50 of ITF ranking in the +60 category. I will probably only participate in the ITF tournaments.

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
It's my last year in the +55 category, so this year I'm just trying to get used to playing against the best players. I avoid tournaments in which I am the favorite. My plan for next year is to be in the top 50 of ITF ranking in the +60 category. I will probably only participate in the ITF tournaments.
What city are you based in? I am trying to plan out my TT tour schedule.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Your posting is like your game, just relentless. This post is me doing an UE...
Most of you try to copy so called "modern" technique. I tested it and now I know that it is not the best technique for amateur players and in older categories. I use only those elements of this technique which give me points. I just like to win.

#### ByeByePoly

##### G.O.A.T.
It's my last year in the +55 category, so this year I'm just trying to get used to playing against the best players. I avoid tournaments in which I am the favorite. My plan for next year is to be in the top 50 of ITF ranking in the +60 category. I will probably only participate in the ITF tournaments.
Enjoy your tennis ... legs have a shelf life.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
What city are you based in? I am trying to plan out my TT tour schedule.
I haven't played a tournament in my city since 1995.

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
I haven't played a tournament in my city since 1995.
What city are your videos taken in?

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
Sopot, Łódz, Wrocław, ....
Maybe the better question:
Where should one go who wishes to train at the 2HF Academy for a few days while passing through Poland?

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Maybe the better question:
Where should one go who wishes to train at the 2HF Academy for a few days while passing through Poland?
I am very inteligent so I understand your question. I just do not want to publicly disclose my place of residence, although on the basis of what I wrote here it would not be difficult to find out. However, I do not exclude such a meeting. I don't speak English very well, that's why such meetings are stressful for me.

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
I am very inteligent so I understand your question. I just do not want to publicly disclose my place of residence, although on the basis of what I wrote here it would not be difficult to find out. However, I do not exclude such a meeting. I don't speak English very well, that's why such meetings are stressful for me.
I had no intention to cause you stress. Sorry. I like to line up tennis when I travel. You seem like you would be a fun opponent to compete against.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
I had no intention to cause you stress. Sorry. I like to line up tennis when I travel. You seem like you would be a fun opponent to compete against.
Maybe we can play in Łódź on the courts of my opponent from Sopot. He has 5 courts. Two of them under roof. Clay of course.

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
Maybe we can play in Łódź on the courts of my opponent from Sopot. He has 5 courts. Two of them under roof. Clay of course.
I passed through Warsaw on a lark a few years ago, and very much enjoyed it there. I will bring a racquet next time I am in the vicinity.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
I passed through Warsaw on a lark a few years ago, and very much enjoyed it there. I will bring a racquet next time I am in the vicinity.
Łódź is 100 kilometers from Warsaw via the highway. Where are you from ?

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
Łódź is 100 kilometers from Warsaw via the highway. Where are you from ?
I am in Seattle. But I try to live up to my username by playing tennis in many places all around the world.

#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
I am very inteligent so I understand your question.
You're also incredibly modest!

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
You're also incredibly modest!
No. I am not modest. Modesty is a kind of falsehood. Dont try to ofend me. I am true. I graduated in theotetical physics so I have to be intelligent. I'm not saying this to brag. Intelligence means more responsibility.

#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
No. I am not modest. Modesty is a kind of falsehood. Dont try to ofend me. I am true. I graduated in theotetical physics so I have to be intelligent. I'm not saying this to brag. Intelligence means more responsibility.
I'm pretty sure my academic achievements surpass yours. Therefore you should bow down to my arguments, since by your own metric, I'm more intelligent than you.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
I'm pretty sure my academic achievements surpass yours. Therefore you should bow down to my arguments, since by your own metric, I'm more intelligent than you.
30 years ago in the European Analysis and Synthesis Test, I achieved a score of 60 out of 60. I use my intelligence in tennis. That is why I won a lot of tournaments playing against much stronger and healthy players. In life I go my own way. My mind is completely independent of the surroundings. Even in tennis I created my own technique and it is extremely effective.

#### Slowtwitcher

##### Rookie
30 years ago in the European Analysis and Synthesis Test, I achieved a score of 60 out of 60. I use my intelligence in tennis. That is why I won a lot of tournaments playing against much stronger and healthy players. In life I go my own way. My mind is completely independent of the surroundings. Even in tennis I created my own technique and it is extremely effective.
It's confirmed, I'm more intelligent than you.

You need to bow down to my intelligence and start hitting a Djokovic backhand!

#### vex

##### Hall of Fame
Why doesnt it work as it should ? I tried to copy backhand of Monica Seles but it is not easy.
If I played this ugly I’d look into other sports lol

#### travlerajm

##### G.O.A.T.
No wonder the OP gets stressed about human contact.

#### 3loudboys

##### Hall of Fame
My technique is based on limiting the number of degrees of freedom and using the strongest muscles of our body. I wrote about it in my second thread.

1) In forehand your right elbow should be bent all the time. When you take the racket back, during the stroke and after it.

2) Don’t use wrist to generate spin. Do it using elbow.

3) In two handed backhand your left elbow should be bent all the time. You will never play like Djokovic.

4) Limit the movement of the right elbow in two handed backhand.

5) Use neutral stance in backhand.

6) Use neutral stance in forehand. Use open stance only if the ball is far on your right side.

7) Finish your forehand and two handed backhand using arms and not using rotation of your body.

Different strokes Greg (excuse the pun), and there is some commonality in your list to what I have been suggesting.

Points 1 and 3 though - keeping arms bent restricts extension through contact - I know we have disagreed on this before. Extending out to your target does not mean that you are imitating Djoker though, just hitting with easier depth and placement. I would argue that it would take as long to master your bent arm version of the bh as it would the extended top hand.

Points 5 and 6 - I agree closed stance on bh where possible and semi open on fh. Open stance when stretched wide into flow step.

#### grzewas

##### Rookie
Different strokes Greg (excuse the pun), and there is some commonality in your list to what I have been suggesting.

Points 1 and 3 though - keeping arms bent restricts extension through contact - I know we have disagreed on this before. Extending out to your target does not mean that you are imitating Djoker though, just hitting with easier depth and placement. I would argue that it would take as long to master your bent arm version of the bh as it would the extended top hand.

Points 5 and 6 - I agree closed stance on bh where possible and semi open on fh. Open stance when stretched wide into flow step.
Bent elbows are most important in my technique. It is thanks to them that I have so much control on the ball. The farther the hand from the body the less control we have. You keep saying what is lost without straightening the elbow and you are saying nothing what is lost when the elbow is straightened. Only for very strong players straightening the elbow is beneficial. For amateur and older players it is main reason of their failure in tennis.

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