What is wrong with Thiem?

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame
Thats interesting. When you have had injuries you can see it on players when they are sheltering it. I never had back injuries and for me its hard to notice. I have knee injuries and I can see when Rafa is troubled w it.

Do you think 1HBH tend to get more back injuries? Looks like it. Do u have 1HB?

Thiem has a similar serve to Federer who also have back issues and a 1BH.

Yes I have a OHBH. I think stabilisation is really important with OHBH. I switched from two hander and found initially I would just leverage my hitting arm without proper torso rotation, and my left arm would just sort of hang there. You can see Thiem do this often... what happens is that your hitting arm violently swings across the body and because the torso hasn't caught up and the stabilising arm hasn't provided balance it can put a lot of straight on the shoulder and the muscles which attach the shoulder to the back (rhomboids I think they are but don't quote me).

I cured my OHBH problems by placing a lot more emphasis on torso rotation and getting that stabilising arm up and working. I focus on Wawrinka's motion as I believe it is the perfect model for torso rotation... a big coil and unload. The torso comes around with the arm and this protects it, and his stabilising arm also extends well and balances the body.
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame

Here are some Thiem backhands in practice that show what I mean. 49 sec mark has two examples in a row. His stabilising arm doesnt really do much, and his hitting arm just helicopters around. Toros rotation is very limited, especially the second backhand hit after the 49 sec mark, watch the right shoulder rotation... its very shortened but the arm continues on. Yes this is practice, but he does this in match play often and with ALOT more power. When my OHBH had this form I would get a very sore back muscle on the right shoulder blade area and it would cramp up really bad!! Since changing it to the stan example below it's been completely fixed.

Now compare it to Stan in this video from the 15 sec or so mark has two good backhand examples. Almost full coil and shoulder rotation that follows the hitting arm and protects it from helicoptering/ running away. And his stabilising arm tracks around with the body and balances the body.

 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
I cured my OHBH problems by placing a lot more emphasis on torso rotation and getting that stabilising arm up and working. I focus on Wawrinka's motion as I believe it is the perfect model for torso rotation... a big coil and unload. The torso comes around with the arm and this protects it, and his stabilising arm also extends well and balances the body.

Its interesting that the back and not the joints in the arm that gets injured without a full torso rotation. So you felt upper back problems? His serve I would think could cause lower back problems.
How long time did it take you to adapt to the new BH?
I find it strange that in pro tennis when they are young and up and coming they are not focusing on having less injury causing movements and not making bad habits.
F.ex Tiafoe serve and FH is absurd to watch.
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame
Its interesting that the back and not the joints in the arm that gets injured without a full torso rotation. So you felt upper back problems? His serve I would think could cause lower back problems.
How long time did it take you to adapt to the new BH?
I find it strange that in pro tennis when they are young and up and coming they are not focusing on having less injury causing movements and not making bad habits.
F.ex Tiafoe serve and FH is absurd to watch.

YES Tiafoe forehand looks terrifying for the wrist. Literally cannot fathom how he hits that shot.

6 months or so of playing ~3 hours a week in order to completely cut out the bad habits with my OHBH. Footwork is really important which is why it took so long... getting footwork wrong always led me to hitting a forced OHBH and thus doing the wild Thiem motion. Now if I cannot comfortable hit a good technique OHBH I will slice.

It would not take that long for someone who plays more regularly to fix the issue. I can't imagine why Thiem hasn't worked on it more. I would have to say that out of all the OHBH players on tour Thiem's is the most uncoordinated. Wawrinka is perfect, Federer is too but his has less margin for error as it is hit with less vertical racquet head direction. Players like Kohlschreiber, Almagro, even Shapovalov (though it can be a bit uncoordinated at times) all have pretty decent techniques in comparison to Thiem.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
YES Tiafoe forehand looks terrifying for the wrist. Literally cannot fathom how he hits that shot.

6 months or so of playing ~3 hours a week in order to completely cut out the bad habits with my OHBH. Footwork is really important which is why it took so long... getting footwork wrong always led me to hitting a forced OHBH and thus doing the wild Thiem motion. Now if I cannot comfortable hit a good technique OHBH I will slice.

It would not take that long for someone who plays more regularly to fix the issue. I can't imagine why Thiem hasn't worked on it more. I would have to say that out of all the OHBH players on tour Thiem's is the most uncoordinated. Wawrinka is perfect, Federer is too but his has less margin for error as it is hit with less vertical racquet head direction. Players like Kohlschreiber, Almagro, even Shapovalov (though it can be a bit uncoordinated at times) all have pretty decent techniques in comparison to Thiem.

I have a hard time watching Tiafoe because of his wrist flickering, its maybe the strangest thing I have seen on the pro tour recent times. Wonder if he is stubborn or what it is, its something you would teach kids not to do, I cant believe it hasnt been addressed many times. Wrists are so vulnerable.

Thiem has a lot of muscle mass, more than the OHBH players you mentioned. Maybe he has "survived" this long w that BH because he takes the power more from the muscles in the arm and shoulder than getting it from the rotation in the back. But all get caught up w it eventually not using the right technique.
I have to admit I love watching his explosive "bad habit BH" though.. When his BH is on its a beauty, but thats probably because I dont know much about OHBH from before :oops:
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
He's sheltering his back. Anyone who has Tennis TV, watch replays of Thiem early 2017 and compare them to recent tournaments. The back arching which people have mentioned before has been reduced and with it has come a weakened serve. I would say that he indeed has back issues. The outrageous full body forehand motion probably hasn't helped either. His backhand tends to be one big swing of the hitting arm too, he doesn't use his left arm to stabilise as much as other OHBH players.

I have had chronic back issues for over 5 years and I can tell you right now arching my back that hard on a serve would be very unpleasant...
Bennis that is as good a theory as any and we have another intriguing data point; the match with Carrena Busta
1. Thiem 90% first serve points won, utterly tremendous and acceptable even with 52% first serve percentage
2. Thiem wins 39% of first return points; another quality number with Murray leading the career stats at 34%
3. Thiem with 51% won on 2nd return - good enough
4. Thiem won 70% of 2nd serve points in first set, but then plummeted to 29% the last two sets (amazing he won with this.
ohnoes.gif
)

Once again the 2nd serve points won and once again it seems mental. Thiem was even up 40-0 in the first game he was broken.:confused: He had been dominating on serve til that point. All of a sudden with this he started really overhitting and feeding PCB pace to tear him up counterpunching.

Your theory may hold water and Thiem may have gone to broke feeling he couldn't keep up the heavy, heavy hitting. I will also say that I saw very few (maybe none) Super Kickers on first serve to the ad side. Truly bizarre.:rolleyes: Is this mental or the back? Usually his forehand collapses with the serve, but first serving good throughout the match and so was forehand except when he was just being an absolute fool with the overhitting. More than ever its becoming obvious that Thiem needs another coach besides Bresnik.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Bet all of your guys plans for the weekend got put on hold now :p
It is a real point of disgust when we see bad data and the ATP never corrects. Ultimate tennis is a new site and we all need to play with it given that they have an ear for improving. Its quite complex, but the graphs have amazing potential when comparing players.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Huge congrats to Thiem for getting his first top 10 win on HC over a non injured player.
The silver lining to this cloud descending upon WTF is Thiem's 2nd serve game is total garbage. Frankly he and Zverev need to compare notes because both have fallen off a cliff.:mad:
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Bennis that is as good a theory as any and we have another intriguing data point; the match with Carrena Busta
1. Thiem 90% first serve points won, utterly tremendous and acceptable even with 52% first serve percentage
2. Thiem wins 39% of first return points; another quality number with Murray leading the career stats at 34%
3. Thiem with 51% won on 2nd return - good enough
4. Thiem won 70% of 2nd serve points in first set, but then plummeted to 29% the last two sets (amazing he won with this.
ohnoes.gif
)

Once again the 2nd serve points won and once again it seems mental. Thiem was even up 40-0 in the first game he was broken.:confused: He had been dominating on serve til that point. All of a sudden with this he started really overhitting and feeding PCB pace to tear him up counterpunching.

Your theory may hold water and Thiem may have gone to broke feeling he couldn't keep up the heavy, heavy hitting. I will also say that I saw very few (maybe none) Super Kickers on first serve to the ad side. Truly bizarre.:rolleyes: Is this mental or the back? Usually his forehand collapses with the serve, but first serving good throughout the match and so was forehand except when he was just being an absolute fool with the overhitting. More than ever its becoming obvious that Thiem needs another coach besides Bresnik.
Low bounce on this court. Busta was nailing the 2nd serve RoS. Credit where it is due
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
It is a real point of disgust when we see bad data and the ATP never corrects. Ultimate tennis is a new site and we all need to play with it given that they have an ear for improving. Its quite complex, but the graphs have amazing potential when comparing players.
Did it take long time to get into it? Can an idiot like me understand it?
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Low bounce on this court. Busta was nailing the 2nd serve RoS. Credit where it is due
You may be onto something.... nope using new indoor/outdoor feature on Ultimate Tennis, Thiem is actually better indoors on 2nd serve won. Busta did hit six legit winners on backhand, but Thiem definitely part of the equation on that...

these misinfosys twits don't have serve speed for the match:rolleyes:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/scores/atp-infosys-second-screen

Thiem average 2nd serve speed 98.1 mph for year on all courts (assuming this as misinfosys not clear)
123/97 mph in first set for serves.... Thiem 118/100 on first and second in 2nd set.... For match Thiem was 118/100 so might have been 103 mph on 2nd serve the third set. (From tennis tv replay)

Well not a velocity problem like Zverev unless Thiem slipped in a bunch of giant 2nd serves which I did not notice. To my eyes the 2nd serve didn't seem to have as much bit. 6 return winners drove down the number from 50% to 28%. Maybe this is just a crazy anomaly for this match, but the one thing I could see in the match was Thiem started overhitting up 40-0 the first game of the 2nd set. This takes me back to mental or just credit PCB. Also minor back issue still credible as visually the 2nd serve lost some heaviness.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
He's sheltering his back. Anyone who has Tennis TV, watch replays of Thiem early 2017 and compare them to recent tournaments. The back arching which people have mentioned before has been reduced and with it has come a weakened serve. I would say that he indeed has back issues. The outrageous full body forehand motion probably hasn't helped either. His backhand tends to be one big swing of the hitting arm too, he doesn't use his left arm to stabilise as much as other OHBH players.

I have had chronic back issues for over 5 years and I can tell you right now arching my back that hard on a serve would be very unpleasant...
So Thiem's style on the backhand may be hurting his back a bit? His backhand was not on fire today. That shot comes and goes; I've seen hitting well while not hitting forehand or first serve well (low% and DFs.)

Today was a stellar day on first serve with low DFs, high aces and high first serve won. Seems independent of 2nd serve. I guess today has to be ignored due to PCB's surging return game in the last few sets. Very odd still.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
You may be onto something.... nope using new indoor/outdoor feature on Ultimate Tennis, Thiem is actually better indoors on 2nd serve won. Busta did hit six legit winners on backhand, but Thiem definitely part of the equation on that...

these misinfosys twits don't have serve speed for the match:rolleyes:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/scores/atp-infosys-second-screen

Thiem average 2nd serve speed 98.1 mph for year on all courts (assuming this as misinfosys not clear)
123/97 mph in first set for serves.... Thiem 118/100 on first and second in 2nd set.... For match Thiem was 118/100 so might have been 103 mph on 2nd serve the third set. (From tennis tv replay)

Well not a velocity problem like Zverev unless Thiem slipped in a bunch of giant 2nd serves which I did not notice. To my eyes the 2nd serve didn't seem to have as much bit. 6 return winners drove down the number from 50% to 28%. Maybe this is just a crazy anomaly for this match, but the one thing I could see in the match was Thiem started overhitting up 40-0 the first game of the 2nd set. This takes me back to mental or just credit PCB. Also minor back issue still credible as visually the 2nd serve lost some heaviness.
My point bounce was a response to your ". I will also say that I saw very few (maybe none) Super Kickers on first serve to the ad side. Truly bizarre.:rolleyes: Is this mental or the back?"

Imo - and I've been watching serve practice at courtside level - and Rafa's forehand from pretty close to court side level too, the bounce simply doesn't lend itself to a super kicker. Isner might be able to, but he would be the only one. None of Rafa's forehands got out of Goffin's comfort zone the other night.

As for the six winners, you obviously also need to count forced errors on the return. Which he got plenty of as well.
So Thiem's style on the backhand may be hurting his back a bit? His backhand was not on fire today. That shot comes and goes; I've seen hitting well while not hitting forehand or first serve well (low% and DFs.)

Today was a stellar day on first serve with low DFs, high aces and high first serve won. Seems independent of 2nd serve. I guess today has to be ignored due to PCB's surging return game in the last few sets. Very odd still.
yes

COURT SPEED in 2016-2017, @Gary Duane
https://www.perfect-tennis.com/court-speed-2017/
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
Well you have to spend time with it. It has a unique interface, but fairly intuitive. None of us have spent a lot of time so something for the off-season. I'm going to look at hard court leaders for the 2nd half of year.:D
Ill start looking into it on Monday :D
Lets solve all tennis problems :p
 

Shaolin

Talk Tennis Guru
We've been coveting Magnus for years in the Thiem threads. It would have to be a very light schedule or Stanimal might get angry.:D

Thats funny. I haven't been hanging out in the Thiem threads but yeah he's the perfect choice. Dominick must be hoping Stan ages faster because he can really use MN.
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame
So Thiem's style on the backhand may be hurting his back a bit? His backhand was not on fire today. That shot comes and goes; I've seen hitting well while not hitting forehand or first serve well (low% and DFs.)

Today was a stellar day on first serve with low DFs, high aces and high first serve won. Seems independent of 2nd serve. I guess today has to be ignored due to PCB's surging return game in the last few sets. Very odd still.

I would say the backhand and serve are doing his back in! I can't remember if it was this thread or another where I talked about Thiem's serve as well. It obviously works very well, however it's a very abbreviated platform stance. Very very little rise of the back foot (like Federer or Cilic for example who have a large rear foot rise which allows for the entire torso/hips to tilt forward).

Whereas Thiem is keeping the back foot planted and having a very small rise (just a few cm) which forces the back to arch independently in order to get to the "lift off position" before the serve (especially for kick serves)

A large rear foot raise like Federer/Cilic instead allows the entire torso/hips to start off forward -> then rock back which plants the back foot (which puts the body in the correct position to lift off). Thiem's motion uses the back to achieve this, whereas the other platform servers use the hips and torso with less back arching.
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame

Good serve perspective of Thiem around the 10minute mark on. Watch as he uses his back to get into the lift off position. Any platform servers should go and try this abbreviated serve and immediately you should notice that over a long period of time this would cause some pretty bad back pain.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
I would say the backhand and serve are doing his back in! I can't remember if it was this thread or another where I talked about Thiem's serve as well. It obviously works very well, however it's a very abbreviated platform stance. Very very little rise of the back foot (like Federer or Cilic for example who have a large rear foot rise which allows for the entire torso/hips to tilt forward).

Whereas Thiem is keeping the back foot planted and having a very small rise (just a few cm) which forces the back to arch independently in order to get to the "lift off position" before the serve (especially for kick serves)

A large rear foot raise like Federer/Cilic instead allows the entire torso/hips to start off forward -> then rock back which plants the back foot (which puts the body in the correct position to lift off). Thiem's motion uses the back to achieve this, whereas the other platform servers use the hips and torso with less back arching.
Well in match today I'd say backhand nuke shot was nonfunctional, but heavier backhand pretty good. 2nd serve game destroyed by Busta in latter two sets. I suspect this is a minor issue and with luck it will be gone by the new year. I'd like for it to be gone by tomorrow with Goffin.:rolleyes:
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame
Well in match today I'd say backhand nuke shot was nonfunctional, but heavier backhand pretty good. 2nd serve game destroyed by Busta in latter two sets. I suspect this is a minor issue and with luck it will be gone by the new year. I'd like for it to be gone by tomorrow with Goffin.:rolleyes:

I am just watching the Dimitrov v Goffin match now. I can say that with the state of Goffin's knee he isn't a threat to anyone anymore. Sure he can still run around pretty good but no confidence in the knee has translated into no confidence in his shots.

Goffin's error rate post-Tokyo has blown out dramatically. I think he has had the knee issue since about the time of those tournaments?
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
I am just watching the Dimitrov v Goffin match now. I can say that with the state of Goffin's knee he isn't a threat to anyone anymore. Sure he can still run around pretty good but no confidence in the knee has translated into no confidence in his shots.

Goffin's error rate post-Tokyo has blown out dramatically. I think he has had the knee issue since about the time of those tournaments?
Smashed Nadal with that knee so I'm not so sure.
 

chjtennis

G.O.A.T.
I think I was but one of many who speculated early on that the excessive violence in his FH will one day cause him issues. Having said that, I have no way of knowing if his current problems are related.

Not just FH, but his BH and court position makes his game unnecessarily physical. The kid has all the good basis and now needs some tactically astute coaching staff.
 

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
Thiem could really use Magnus Norman in his corner.
On one hand I suppose it's stupid that we are all saying we know more than his coach, but how can this guy win using Nadal's tactic of standing so far back on HCs - and grass?

To me it looks like he has all the right stuff but the wrong coach.
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame
The defeat vs Goffin was one of the worst matches ive ever seen Thiem play. Every single thing I mentioned wrong about his backhand was in complete exhibition today. I really hope this guy can sort his problems out by next year. 2017 has not been friendly to Thiem. He has progressively declined this year: Footwork, technique, mental fortitude, and perhaps injury.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
The defeat vs Goffin was one of the worst matches ive ever seen Thiem play. Every single thing I mentioned wrong about his backhand was in complete exhibition today. I really hope this guy can sort his problems out by next year. 2017 has not been friendly to Thiem. He has progressively declined this year: Footwork, technique, mental fortitude, and perhaps injury.

Agreed, first half of the year looked promising. I really hope he can get it together next year.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
He's simply not that good. Sure, he's good enough to be top 10 but he doesn't have multiple slam winning potential IMO. Maybe he's good for a FO when Nadal collapses.
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame
What’s wrong with his backhand? Interested to know

Well Thiem was brought up on a two hander and swapped to a one hander in his late teens I believe. Anyway, his stroke just isn't executed very well 'in comparison' to every single other one handed player commonly seen on tour.

I think firstly his footwork and prep for the OHBH is very poor, and it often leaves him in an awkward position where he is forced to run into the OHBH and essentially arm the ball. Players like Fed, Stan, Grigor, Kohlschreiber and so on all anticipate very well and get into a good solid position if they are going to hit a OHBH... if it's not ideal they will slice. Thiem does slice but considerably less as he usually tries to bash the ball back with a topspin backhand. You will often see him litearlly jumping out of a backhand shot as he has forced himself to hit over the ball from a non favourable position. This was happening so much in his final defeat at the wtf. I think even the commentators mentioned it.

Secondly his general stroke just lacks efficiency and balance. Other OHBH users coil the body with a great shoulder rotation and then uncoil. Stan has the most noticable coil and uncoil of the lot. Thiem in comparison has very little compared to the others and its usually just his arm doing all the work as opposed to an efficient combo of arm/shoulder/torso. You will see his hitting arm spiral wildly after hitting the ball, and his non hitting arm is barely used to stabilise which also adds to the whole footwork dilemma as it renders him off balance. I posted some nice comparison vids. I think his backhand and also his serve are the reasons for his back pain problems this year as when I transitioned to OHBH I literally did exactly what Thiem does now and it wasn't good for my back or shoulder. But who knows, it's all just observation!! It's hard to judge any player who is 99999999999999x better than you without feeling like a bit of a twat haha.
 

zill

Legend
Well Thiem was brought up on a two hander and swapped to a one hander in his late teens I believe. Anyway, his stroke just isn't executed very well 'in comparison' to every single other one handed player commonly seen on tour.

I think firstly his footwork and prep for the OHBH is very poor, and it often leaves him in an awkward position where he is forced to run into the OHBH and essentially arm the ball. Players like Fed, Stan, Grigor, Kohlschreiber and so on all anticipate very well and get into a good solid position if they are going to hit a OHBH... if it's not ideal they will slice. Thiem does slice but considerably less as he usually tries to bash the ball back with a topspin backhand. You will often see him litearlly jumping out of a backhand shot as he has forced himself to hit over the ball from a non favourable position. This was happening so much in his final defeat at the wtf. I think even the commentators mentioned it.

Secondly his general stroke just lacks efficiency and balance. Other OHBH users coil the body with a great shoulder rotation and then uncoil. Stan has the most noticable coil and uncoil of the lot. Thiem in comparison has very little compared to the others and its usually just his arm doing all the work as opposed to an efficient combo of arm/shoulder/torso. You will see his hitting arm spiral wildly after hitting the ball, and his non hitting arm is barely used to stabilise which also adds to the whole footwork dilemma as it renders him off balance. I posted some nice comparison vids. I think his backhand and also his serve are the reasons for his back pain problems this year as when I transitioned to OHBH I literally did exactly what Thiem does now and it wasn't good for my back or shoulder. But who knows, it's all just observation!! It's hard to judge any player who is 99999999999999x better than you without feeling like a bit of a twat haha.

But he is able to generate tredmendous power at times. Sometimes even more than Wawrinka with more topspin as well. However i have seen him arm a lot of balls as well. It’s probably due to the fact that with his style he has a narrow range to hit the ball. If it gets too high or too low than he is in trouble.
 

yokied

Hall of Fame
Well here I am like some masochist reviewing some of Thiem's matches that I missed. In the first set of Thiem's WTF RR match Vs Goffin, he was up 3-0 and cruising. Lost 15 points in a row to lose the set 6-4. During the set break he was far more interested in getting treatment on a knee scab than working out what just happened.

I don't care what analytical games you play elsewhere, when a player has issues like this, there's a lot more important problems than technical ones to sort out.
 
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