What makes a ball jump off the court on ground strokes?

I’ve noticed lately I’ve been hitting a better ball after many years away from playing. About 1/5 forehands will jump forward after the bounce instead of jumping or popping upward - what gives this quality? I want to practice doing this intentionally.

Related Q - how to get this quality on a 2HBH?
 

nyta2

Hall of Fame
you're probably hitting through the ball more, maybe also xfer'ing body weight through the ball, vs. just brushing the back of the ball and/or hitting off your back foot (weight moving backwards/sideways)
 

fecund345

Rookie
I think heavy forward thrusting topspin is cool. However, i believe that heavy forwad spinning flatspin is more efficient because the ball stays low because of the angle of attack. Quicker players with exceptional anticipation skills can still run underneath heavy high bouncing topsin and can get the ball back in play. The only topsin shot with more forward heavy topspin than flatspin is Nick Kyrgios downward hit topspin on a high ball...he starts higg above the ball and finishes under his armpit or at shoulder height. Downside is it can only be hit reliably on a higher bouncing ball. Flatspin does not have that restriction.

 

tendency

Rookie
I think heavy forward thrusting topspin is cool. However, i believe that heavy forwad spinning flatspin is more efficient because the ball stays low because of the angle of attack. Quicker players with exceptional anticipation skills can still run underneath heavy high bouncing topsin and can get the ball back in play. The only topsin shot with more forward heavy topspin than flatspin is Nick Kyrgios downward hit topspin on a high ball...he starts higg above the ball and finishes under his armpit or at shoulder height. Downside is it can only be hit reliably on a higher bouncing ball. Flatspin does not have that restriction.


His drive-liftoff-then-crush timing is brilliant - great stuff.
 
you're probably hitting through the ball more, maybe also xfer'ing body weight through the ball, vs. just brushing the back of the ball and/or hitting off your back foot (weight moving backwards/sideways)
I think this is it - gonna try to get a feel for this next couple sessions this week. Feels like my timing is still suspect so I wait too long to start my swing - and when I hit further out in front and feel my right leg come around, the ball just pops off the racquet and that’s when I’m noticing my opponent pushed further back.
 

fecund345

Rookie
Rising socket? What do you mean?
Rising socket- the synchronous rise of the shoulder and the elbow along a linear pathway to impart topspin while making level groundstroje swing instead of a low to high groudstroke swing.

The power generation is initiated an unequal inelastic mass collision that emulates a Mike Tyson punch. This is the basis for the flatspin stroke which is counterintuitive to all current grounstroke generation theory promulgated by all the tennis talking heads in the tennis universe.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Rising socket- the synchronous rise of the shoulder and the elbow along a linear pathway to impart topspin while making level groundstroje swing instead of a low to high groudstroke swing.

The power generation is initiated an unequal inelastic mass collision that emulates a Mike Tyson punch. This is the basis for the flatspin stroke which is counterintuitive to all current grounstroke generation theory promulgated by all the tennis talking heads in the tennis universe.
Learned something new...
 
Rising socket- the synchronous rise of the shoulder and the elbow along a linear pathway to impart topspin while making level groundstroje swing instead of a low to high groudstroke swing.

The power generation is initiated an unequal inelastic mass collision that emulates a Mike Tyson punch. This is the basis for the flatspin stroke which is counterintuitive to all current grounstroke generation theory promulgated by all the tennis talking heads in the tennis universe.
Ahhh so this sounds like it starts from the ground up with pushing up with my legs? Makes sense - earlier in a session I can do this faster and more aggressively vs later, reducing thst forward speed as I get tired.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Friction of the ball against the court. In general, the faster rotation plus initial height the higher the ball bounces. Swing harder, faster and aim 6+ feet over the net, keeping the ball inside the court. Google heavy ball. Watch YouTube.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
I’ve noticed lately I’ve been hitting a better ball after many years away from playing. About 1/5 forehands will jump forward after the bounce instead of jumping or popping upward - what gives this quality? I want to practice doing this intentionally.

Related Q - how to get this quality on a 2HBH?
Practice. Work on brushing up the back of the ball more. When you've mastered that, continue adding pace by swinging faster.
 

WeekendTennisHack

Hall of Fame
Rising socket- the synchronous rise of the shoulder and the elbow along a linear pathway to impart topspin while making level groundstroje swing instead of a low to high groudstroke swing.

The power generation is initiated an unequal inelastic mass collision that emulates a Mike Tyson punch. This is the basis for the flatspin stroke which is counterintuitive to all current grounstroke generation theory promulgated by all the tennis talking heads in the tennis universe.

Very interesting. Anymore info on this?
 

fecund345

Rookie


Look, I am a former tennis instructor certified by the USPTR. I have a different way looking at things. All the tennis talking heads tell me that lag and whio are the only way generate speed and that high to low below the ball strokes are the only way to generate massive topspin, but I have generated massivevtopspin with a rising socket and generated powerful ball speed with a stiff Mike Tyson unorthodox hip turn based on the premise that a large mass hitting a much smaller mass translates into faster speed because of the mass differential. I have done this stroke for years. I have scared peoole at the bet with this stroke for years and it stays in bound. Yet these tennis talking heads rell me over and over again that zi am not doing what I am doing. They look at my video where my racket is scraming thru the air and tell me that my technique is wrong because it is not lag / whip technique. Instead of trying it they dismisd it. Look at the basketball proof that large
mass small mass collisions work and can be comparable to lag/ whip ball speed generation. In addition, a rising socket can generate a lot of topspin, but instead of trying they just say that won't work and that I need some lessons.

 

nyta2

Hall of Fame


Look, I am a former tennis instructor certified by the USPTR. I have a different way looking at things. All the tennis talking heads tell me that lag and whio are the only way generate speed and that high to low below the ball strokes are the only way to generate massive topspin, but I have generated massivevtopspin with a rising socket and generated powerful ball speed with a stiff Mike Tyson unorthodox hip turn based on the premise that a large mass hitting a much smaller mass translates into faster speed because of the mass differential. I have done this stroke for years. I have scared peoole at the bet with this stroke for years and it stays in bound. Yet these tennis talking heads rell me over and over again that zi am not doing what I am doing. They look at my video where my racket is scraming thru the air and tell me that my technique is wrong because it is not lag / whip technique. Instead of trying it they dismisd it. Look at the basketball proof that large
mass small mass collisions work and can be comparable to lag/ whip ball speed generation. In addition, a rising socket can generate a lot of topspin, but instead of trying they just say that won't work and that I need some lessons.

i used to hit like that. very tiring way to swing (i was basically combining a hip twist, ala tyson, like you said, with kinda of bicep curl/hook punch motion)... definitely can produce a decent amount of topspin (at least for the ntrp4.0 level i was at, at the time)... not as much penetration though compared to the way i currently hit (or how the pros hit - ie. who i'm trying to emulate).
my $.02
 

fecund345

Rookie
i used to hit like that. very tiring way to swing (i was basically combining a hip twist, ala tyson, like you said, with kinda of bicep curl/hook punch motion)... definitely can produce a decent amount of topspin (at least for the ntrp4.0 level i was at, at the time)... not as much penetration though compared to the way i currently hit (or how the pros hit - ie. who i'm trying to emulate).
my $.02
Did you do the rising socket? Don't agree that it is a bicep curl. Maximum penetration and velocity achevieable if you know how to throw a punch. Most people have weak slow punches. Send me a video of your old stroke and I will compare it to mine. Turn the sound up so I can hear what your racket sounds like in the air. Does it swoosh?

I am not dissing the pro level swing..it is sound...i am just maintaining that it is not the only way. But i keep hearing that can't be doing what I have done.
 

nyta2

Hall of Fame
Did you do the rising socket? Don't agree that it is a bicep curl. Maximum penetration and velocity achevieable if you know how to throw a punch. Most people have weak slow punches. Send me a video of your old stroke and I will compare it to mine. Turn the sound up so I can hear what your racket sounds like in the air. Does it swoosh?
i never videod my old strokes... back when video'ing was annoying & clunky, and yt wasn't really a thing... but it looked very very similar (yes, with a rising socket... though i didn't have a name for it back then)...
yes, you have a good whoosh, but i think there are other/better ways to do so (ie. what the pros are doing), for penetration&versatility&efficiency...
other issue i had with my old stroke was when i was pulled out wide.. the "reach" i had with my "hook-punch-as-a-fh" was cut down a decent amount... it was fine if i didn't have to reach, arguably better, because of the shorter radius swing path, at controlling hard hit incoming balls....
 

fecund345

Rookie
Note: I know how to teach and execute the pro level swing. I am not some rookie that has no clue trying to learn the right stroke and failing miserably. I am just suggesting other paradigms. So stop addressing my pists in that manner. I am not lost. Attack my idea but don't attack my abilities.
 

fecund345

Rookie
i never videod my old strokes... back when video'ing was annoying & clunky, and yt wasn't really a thing... but it looked very very similar (yes, with a rising socket... though i didn't have a name for it back then)...
yes, you have a good whoosh, but i think there are other/better ways to do so (ie. what the pros are doing), for penetration&versatility&efficiency...
other issue i had with my old stroke was when i was pulled out wide.. the "reach" i had with my "hook-punch-as-a-fh" was cut down a decent amount... it was fine if i didn't have to reach, arguably better, because of the shorter radius swing path, at controlling hard hit incoming balls....
I am not disputing the pros way of doing things. It is proven by the test of time. No argument there.

But I do not agree that your old stroke was the same as mine, because of your description of decent topspin and velocity. The comparison seems conflated to me.
 

nyta2

Hall of Fame
Note: I know how to teach and execute the pro level swing. I am not some rookie that has no clue trying to learn the right stroke and failing miserably. I am just suggesting other paradigms. So stop addressing my pists in that manner. I am not lost. Attack my idea but don't attack my abilities.
is that addressed at me? i thought we were having a conversation... how am i addressing your posts in any manner? did i attack your ability?
 

fecund345

Rookie
is that addressed at me? i thought we were having a conversation... how am i addressing your posts in any manner? did i attack your ability?
No it is in general. I am not frustrated with you. .just some people are trying to save me because they feel I am hopelessly lost...I am not...so no it is not about you☻

Stuff like keep trying...you'll get there.. drives me nuts!!
 

tendency

Rookie
Rising socket- the synchronous rise of the shoulder and the elbow along a linear pathway to impart topspin while making level groundstroje swing instead of a low to high groudstroke swing.

The power generation is initiated an unequal inelastic mass collision that emulates a Mike Tyson punch. This is the basis for the flatspin stroke which is counterintuitive to all current grounstroke generation theory promulgated by all the tennis talking heads in the tennis universe.

rising socket - ok that's a new term to me - is a shot that counter-punching style players typically employ.
 

fecund345

Rookie
rising socket - ok that's a new term to me - is a shot that counter-punching style players typically employ.
Oh contraire. It is a very agressive way of imparting topsin to flatter tennis stroke.

When I was going thru the USPTR certification, my instructor introduce the concept for executing a slice approach shot. As an inquisitive lad, I thought what if I done faster could it be used to generate topspin on flatter stroke. Creating a shot with a lot of spin but remaining close to the net. A shot that fast players can't run under but has the toospin margin of error. I succeeded and used it, but the tennis talking heads kerp shooting me down.. saying it can't wor and inferring that I never done it. Like I am delusional. Frustrating as hell.
 

jz000

Semi-Pro
Letting the head of the racket meet the ball first, then 'hold'/pull on it with your body to generate pace.
AKA - racket head speed RHS.
Now you have spin+pace, and a 'jumpy' ball.
 

Dragy

Legend
Oh contraire. It is a very agressive way of imparting topsin to flatter tennis stroke.

When I was going thru the USPTR certification, my instructor introduce the concept for executing a slice approach shot. As an inquisitive lad, I thought what if I done faster could it be used to generate topspin on flatter stroke. Creating a shot with a lot of spin but remaining close to the net. A shot that fast players can't run under but has the toospin margin of error. I succeeded and used it, but the tennis talking heads kerp shooting me down.. saying it can't wor and inferring that I never done it. Like I am delusional. Frustrating as hell.
It can work. Many things can work from close up unless you face some Alcarazes or De Minaurs to get to anything you hit and pass you. The question is, why it’s supposed to be better than typical high level topspin drive? Net clearance is totally a controlled feature with any technique, you want - you hit a net skimmer, you wish - you send it higher.

I see how more or less what you suggest may work as faster-prep options, I see it when people just step up to the ball straight and short-swing it. No stepping around in prep, coiling, initiating the swing, using appropriate footwork.. just step up and punch. And this has advantages for rec players.

The biggest issue to me is that tight posture of the swing may lead to injuries, like shoulder impingement and tennis elbow. The biggest red flag to using such technique, especially with power.

PS: @nyta2 is a seasoned martial artist, so I bet his punches are not weak.
 

fecund345

Rookie
Mike Tyson punches never led to his injury. In fact, the laggy pro technique while effective has a better chance to cause injury.
@nyta2 Suggestion that the velocity would be slow is where I take issue. Could it be used at the pro level, I don't know? I can't get a high level athlete ither than @optic yellow to try it. As with any theory, it must be proven. When ai was in my 40 and 50's I scared the hell out of rec players and kept up with 5.0 players as long as they hit back to me...i have had hip oroblems sinse early 40's and a replacement hip at 50. But if an experiment was done by a good athlete and the stroke was not competitive then I would admit that I was mistaken. But Chris had to sail around the world to prove that the world was not flat. It needs to be tested, but it will not be. It will just be dismissed.
It is not a pancea, it is an idea that worked for me.
 

fecund345

Rookie
Oh and this is not an arm punch. The arm is kept rigid to add the impact of the body weight transferred into the shot. A loose arm would kill everything.
 

nyta2

Hall of Fame
PS: @nyta2 is a seasoned martial artist, so I bet his punches are not weak.
lol more of a dabbler, probably like a ntrp4.0 level martial artist... i can do the moves...
then i took a lesson with a muy thai fighter with like 100+ fights under his belt... (call him an ntrp6.5)
and despite looking like i was throwing moves that looked the same, there was a monster difference in terms of power (seemingly with no effort), speed, timing, movement, etc...
 

fecund345

Rookie
lol more of a dabbler, probably like a ntrp4.0 level martial artist... i can do the moves...
then i took a lesson with a muy thai fighter with like 100+ fights under his belt... (call him an ntrp6.5)
and despite looking like i was throwing moves that looked the same, there was a monster difference in terms of power (seemingly with no effort), speed, timing, movement, etc...
Elastic collisions where a larger mass collides with a smaller mass results in an inrease in speed if the smaller mass. The arm and the racket are bigger than the ball so the laggy whippy pro topspin is effective because of the great head speed generated by the stroke. The idea behind flatspin, because of the rising socket topspin generation technique, was to come up with something to substitute for lack racket head speed in comparison to pro style hits. I thought, add more mass, so I reasoned that that ine third of my upper body propelled by my hips, the arm and the racket are even bigger than the ball. Problem: how to transfer all that large mass power to my arm. Solution: keep arm rigid until after impact.
ELASTIC COLLISION

notice the acceleration of the tennis ball after mass transfer. The racket head speed of flatspin cannot match the pro swing, but the increase in mass can fill in the gap. The angle of the bounce stays low because of how the the topsin is imparted, more forward than upward

 

Dragy

Legend
lol more of a dabbler, probably like a ntrp4.0 level martial artist... i can do the moves...
then i took a lesson with a muy thai fighter with like 100+ fights under his belt... (call him an ntrp6.5)
and despite looking like i was throwing moves that looked the same, there was a monster difference in terms of power (seemingly with no effort), speed, timing, movement, etc...
Of course there are those way better. But compared to someone who never practiced MA seriously, I’m quite sure you are good.
I’ve been practicing karate. Getting powerful technically sound punches is very foundation, and anyone can get decent, break boards as a test. Not just visual test or sound test, but actual punch efficiency.
 

nyta2

Hall of Fame
Elastic collisions where a larger mass collides with a smaller mass results in an inrease in speed if the smaller mass. The arm and the racket are bigger than the ball so the laggy whippy pro topspin is effective because of the great head speed generated by the stroke. The idea behind flatspin, because of the rising socket topspin generation technique, was to come up with something to substitute for lack racket head speed in comparison to pro style hits. I thought, add more mass, so I reasoned that that ine third of my upper body propelled by my hips, the arm and the racket are even bigger than the ball. Problem: how to transfer all that large mass power to my arm. Solution: keep arm rigid until after impact.
ELASTIC COLLISION

notice the acceleration of the tennis ball after mass transfer. The racket head speed of flatspin cannot match the pro swing, but the increase in mass can fill in the gap. The angle of the bounce stays low because of how the the topsin is imparted, more forward than upward

who's the target audience for this technique, if you too admit that the pro technique is better?
 

fecund345

Rookie
There is no audience because I am a heretic. While I stipulated thathe pro technique is more efficient at generating racket head speed, I did not suggest that flatspin could not coome close on ball speed depending on the hip and torso turning ability of the athlete. It will never catch on and I am beating a dead horse. But flailing away at necrotized horse flesh is something I am good at.☻
 
It can work. Many things can work from close up unless you face some Alcarazes or De Minaurs to get to anything you hit and pass you. The question is, why it’s supposed to be better than typical high level topspin drive? Net clearance is totally a controlled feature with any technique, you want - you hit a net skimmer, you wish - you send it higher.

I see how more or less what you suggest may work as faster-prep options, I see it when people just step up to the ball straight and short-swing it. No stepping around in prep, coiling, initiating the swing, using appropriate footwork.. just step up and punch. And this has advantages for rec players.

The biggest issue to me is that tight posture of the swing may lead to injuries, like shoulder impingement and tennis elbow. The biggest red flag to using such technique, especially with power.

PS: @nyta2 is a seasoned martial artist, so I bet his punches are not weak.
Ideally you still prep and coil. It is easier to get away with bad prep than on a regular groundstroke, the coil is fairly essential though.
 
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