What makes a racquet feel like a “baseball bat”

[Ctbwally]

I’ve been demoing lots of racquets lately and one thing that is puzzling to me is how a racquet that is supposedly headlight ends up swinging like a baseball bat or like a club where the weight is at the end.

The ones especially puzzling are the 93p and RF97 both listed at 9 points HL. I’ve also tried K90 (also 9 HL and SW in 330s) and the racquet feels just as heavy but more balanced. When I swing the K90 I don’t have the feeling that the racquet is trying to torque my hand. It’s a heavy racquet but it swings as if all the weight is flying thru the air in unison. What is causing this?

 

[Tommy Haas]

Swingweight and arm strength. My 93P on my forehand feels like it has plenty of SW and heft, but on my two handed backhand, it feels like a wiffle ball bat and doesn't have enough SW. Conversely, it's fine on my one handed backhand. I can play with both styles.

 

[mhkeuns]

I also felt that the RF97 swung heavy, but the 93P swings really easy for me. Even my son who was swinging the Pro Staff 97S said it felt easier to swing the 93P, even though the 93P weighs more. Maybe the balance of the K90 just fits your playing style better than any other frames.

 

[haqq777]

Do you know what balance you usually like? How a racquet swings in hand is usually due to balance. I have had high swingweight racquets swing very easy for me due to more HL balance (beam constructions helps too obviously) and have some not-so-high swingweight ones swing not as smoothly simply because the overall balance threw my swing off. I would recommend trying different balances and seeing what feels good to you.

 

[Ctbwally]

One more data point TT95 also felt club like, even though it’s 8 it’s HL. It seems to me that the ones that swing more smooth are the ones that are less headlight. The ones that felt smooth are Pure Drive, Pure Aero, Phantom 100P. I was wondering if perhaps there’s another factor in play.

 

[pfrischmann]

I think the headsize plays a huge factor in this. Take two racquets with identical specs One with a 90sqin head and one with a 97sqin head size....like the old and new federer racquets. The 90 just moves through the air better where the 97 feels like a baseball bat and is clunky to swing. You'll notice when Wilson released the 6.X series prostaffs, as the went up in headsize the sticks became lighter and/or more headlight. I beleive this was to reduce the drag you get from the bigger headsize.

 

[bkfinch]

I’ve been demoing lots of racquets lately and one thing that is puzzling to me is how a racquet that is supposedly headlight ends up swinging like a baseball bat or like a club where the weight is at the end.

The ones especially puzzling are the 93p and RF97 both listed at 9 points HL. I’ve also tried K90 (also 9 HL and SW in 330s) and the racquet feels just as heavy but more balanced. When I swing the K90 I don’t have the feeling that the racquet is trying to torque my hand. It’s a heavy racquet but it swings as if all the weight is flying thru the air in unison. What is causing this?

Twistweight IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dartagnan64]

It’s all related to weight and swingweight. That’s why marketers ask their engineers to make lighter low swing weight rackets. So people swing them in the store and think, “wow, so easy to swing. I’ll be really able to crush the Ball.” Where’s my credit card.

Balance and twistweight affect control and stability, not that feel of easy swinging.

 

[MajesticMoose]

Thinner beams also help contribute to better feel since they cut through the air better. Thinner beams will always be > than fat beams.

 

[Faris]

Balance and twistweight affect control and stability, not that feel of easy swinging.

Where do you come up with these theories man? You are completely wrong. Balance is the number one factor that affects your swing. Take two identical racquets but different balance. The more headlight one will have lower effective swingweight at wrist axis and lower effective swingweight at the shoulder axis. Try it yourself with 2 similar racquets same static weight, same swing weight and different balance. The more HL racquet will swing a lot easier. Now if the static weight is much less, offcourse it might swing easier with a more even balance. But that isn't what OP asked.

 

[sanister]

In my experience it is the more heavier racquets that are more even balanced which swing like baseball bats. They start swinging smoother if you make them more head light. I am old school and more used to HL balances. I think if you can sort out your balance it will change how your racquet swings. Also as someone above mentioned the racquet construction also matters (thick or thin beamed etc).

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

What is a baseball bat racket that is arm friendly ?

 

[time_fly]

What is a baseball bat racket that is arm friendly ?

I would stick with a two-piece composite like an Easton Ghost. Should clear the back fence easily, large sweet spot and no sting even if you miss it.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Where do you come up with these theories man? You are completely wrong. Balance is the number one factor that affects your swing. Take two identical racquets but different balance. The more headlight one will have lower effective swingweight at wrist axis and lower effective swingweight at the shoulder axis. Try it yourself with 2 similar racquets same static weight, same swing weight and different balance. The more HL racquet will swing a lot easier. Now if the static weight is much less, offcourse it might swing easier with a more even balance. But that isn't what OP asked.

Admittedly I was being a bit cynical about the whole issue but SW is really the effort needed to overcome inertia. Which is what people sense as ease of swinging. Balance affects swing weight as the formula for SW is related entirely on static weight and balance.

the Head Ti S6 feels easier to swing than a 93P despite the formers HH balance comparatively. It’s because the SW is lower thanks to being a lighter frame.

 

[Faris]

Admittedly I was being a bit cynical about the whole issue but SW is really the effort needed to overcome inertia. Which is what people sense as ease of swinging. Balance affects swing weight as the formula for SW is related entirely on static weight and balance.

the Head Ti S6 feels easier to swing than a 93P despite the formers HH balance comparatively. It’s because the SW is lower thanks to being a lighter frame.

Explaining ease of swinging is pretty simple and I went over that in my example. Take two identical racquets with only a difference in balance and you will have lower effective swingweight at both your wrist and shoulder axis making the more HL one swing easier. You said balance does not affect feel of easy swinging. That is what I disagreed with.

The Head TiS6 might be more HH but it's static weight is also much lower than 93P. A racquet with lower swing weight will obviously swing easier than one with higher swingweight. The Si6 also does not play anything like a club btw. It is generally the heavier more even balanced ones that start giving that clubby feel.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Explaining ease of swinging is pretty simple and I went over that in my example. Take two identical racquets with only a difference in balance and you will have lower effective swingweight at both your wrist and shoulder axis making the more HL one swing easier. You said balance does not affect feel of easy swinging with which I completely disagreed.

Also, the example of Head TiS6 being HH is not applicable here, as I already mentioned in my post earlier, because the static weight is much lower than 93P. A racquet with lower swing weight will obviously swing easier than one with higher swingweight. You have to compare apples to apples. The Si6 also does not play anything like a club. It is generally the heavier more even balanced ones that start givibg that clubby feel.

And I said it’s impossible to have identical weight and swingweight and different balance. Because the formula for swingweight will have to include balance and weight. As soon as you change the balance on identical weight rackets, the swingweight by definition must change. You will have to lighten the frame on the HH racket to get the SW comparable again.

 

[Ctbwally]

Thanks for the pointers guys. I didn’t realize that headsize and beam thickness had this much of an effect

 

[haqq777]

And I said it’s impossible to have identical weight and swingweight and different balance. Because the formula for swingweight will have to include balance and weight. As soon as you change the balance on identical weight rackets, the swingweight by definition must change.

I have multiple Custom Angells matched spec wise. Two of them have identical static weight, balance and unstrung swing weight (numbers are from freshly calibrated RDC). Angells have a pallet system where you can adjust weights in slots in handle to adjust balance or add or reduce static weight, as you probably already know. Are you telling me if I adjust weights in the pallet of one of my racquet to make it more HL, the swingweight will change? Because that would be absolutely incorrect. The swingweight does not change if you adjust balance. And I have tinkered with this multiple times.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I have multiple Custom Angells matched spec wise. Two of them have identical static weight, balance and unstrung swing weight (numbers are from freshly calibrated RDC). Angells have a pallet system where you can adjust weights in slots in handle to adjust balance or add or reduce static weight, as you probably already know. Are you telling me if I adjust weights in the pallet of one of my racquet to make it more HL, the swingweight will change? Because that would be absolutely incorrect. The swingweight does not change if you adjust balance. And I have tinkered with this multiple times.

You can't add mass to a racket and not change SW. no matter whether its at the tip or stern. it will always raise the SW. You can only change SW in an identical balanced and static weight racket by altering the distribution of that mass throughout the frame. So a polarized racket with a same mass and balance as a depolarized racket with same mass and balance will have a higher SW. But polarized frames and depolarized frames are not the same rackets. And the difference is minor compared to the effects of mass and balance point which account for 95% of SW.

 

[haqq777]

You can't add mass to a racket and not change SW. no matter whether its at the tip or stern. it will always raise the SW. You can only change SW in an identical balanced and static weight racket by altering the distribution of that mass throughout the frame. So a polarized racket with a same mass and balance as a depolarized racket with same mass and balance will have a higher SW. But polarized frames and depolarized frames are not the same rackets. And the difference is minor compared to the effects of mass and balance point which account for 95% of SW.

I did not say I "added" mass. I said I adjusted the weight. There was already weight in top slot at the handle towards the tail slot (10g). I put that same weight in bottom most slot. Adjusting that made the racquet more headlight without changing swingweight. You did not address what I wrote above. How did my swingweight not change when I adjusted weight in handle to change balance? Because according to what you wrote above, it should have.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

I did not say I "added" mass. I said I adjusted the weight. There was already weight in top slot at the handle towards the tail slot (10g). I put that same weight in bottom most slot. Adjusting that made the racquet more headlight without changing swingweight. You did not address what I wrote above. How did my swingweight not change when I adjusted weight in handle to change balance? Because according to what you wrote above, it should have.

Moving weight around on the racket wille change swing weight. Granted not so much when it is in the grip.

 

[haqq777]

Moving weight around on the racket wille change swing weight.

Like I mentioned above, RDC disagrees. I have all my racquets meticulously measured on a regular basis. No change in swingweight whatsoever.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I did not say I "added" mass. I said I adjusted the weight. There was already weight in top slot at the handle towards the tail slot (10g). I put that same weight in bottom most slot. Adjusting that made the racquet more headlight without changing swingweight. You did not address what I wrote above. How did my swingweight not change when I adjusted weight in handle to change balance? Because according to what you wrote above, it should have.

Mass distribution, weight and balance determine swing weight. You changed balance and mass distribution to even out the swing weight.

I agree that you can do that but I considered that fundamentally changing the racket. So we may be arguing semantics now. I was always assuming there was identical mass distribution in the frames so that it would be impossible to change either static weight or balance without altering swing weight. But yes if you are going to change the mass distribution, you can do so while altering balance and keep the SW unchanged.

in identical frames with identical mass distribution through out the frame any increase in weight or move of balance toward the tip will increase SW.

But if you give me a frame with a HH balance and 320 SW and a frame with a HL balance and 320 SW they should be equally easy to swing because SW is still the force required to overcome inertia so the body has to exert the same force no matter the balance point. No how smoothly it swings was what I was referring to in stability and control. A properly balanced HL racket will swing more smoothly and feel more controlled.

But again probably semantics since we may be thinking of different things when describing ease of swinging.

TlR. I agree with you now that I have read and tried to understand what you are describing.

 

[haqq777]

Mass distribution, weight and balance determine swing weight. You changed balance and mass distribution to even out the swing weight.

I agree that you can do that but I considered that fundamentally changing the racket. So we may be arguing semantics now. I was always assuming there was identical mass distribution in the frames so that it would be impossible to change either static weight or balance without altering swing weight. But yes if you are going to change the mass distribution, you can do so while altering balance and keep the SW unchanged.

in identical frames with identical mass distribution through out the frame any increase in weight or move of balance toward the tip will increase SW.

But if you give me a frame with a HH balance and 320 SW and a frame with a HL balance and 320 SW they should be equally easy to swing because SW is still the force required to overcome inertia so the body has to exert the same force no matter the balance point. No how smoothly it swings was what I was referring to in stability and control. A properly balanced HL racket will swing more smoothly and feel more controlled.

But again probably semantics since we may be thinking of different things when describing ease of swinging.

TlR. I agree with you now that I have read and tried to understand what you are describing.

Cheers, understood. And thanks for describing everything out in detail for clarity