What makes Nadal's second serve so good?

[SpinDr.]

Was surprised to just read this "Beyond the Numbers" article about Nadal's dominance on second serve points. He's a career leader in this stat and his numbers in 2017 have been off the charts. So what makes Nadal so strong on his own second serve? The first shot after the serve? Because the serve itself doesn't seem that great.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/nadal-infosys-wimbledon-2017

 

[Luckydog]

There's no much difference between his 1st and 2nd serve.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Peak Djokovic wasn't too impressed with the shot!

 

[fundrazer]

Not trying to turn this into a he's mostly played weak players thing, but has he played anyone that seriously attacked or could threaten him on his 2nd serve?

 

[nadalforlife]

He is a lefty, and if you notice the majority of the second serve is directed such that the second shot can be a forehand ..... this year over 90% of his second shot after the serve was a forehand ( btw its not that he runs around the backhand to do it, he places is so )

 

[70後]

Impressive. So it means Nadal is very hard to break.

Is there anything before past 10 seasons? 30 seasons.

 

[NatF]

There's a strong link between baseline prowess and winning many points on your second serve because it's usually a somewhat neutral rally to start.

 

[Mikael]

A very misleading stat in my opinion... it makes it sound like the second serve in itself is an amazing weapon when in reality it is just a consequence of Nadal dominating from the baseline. Nadal's points won on the opponent's second serve is probably very impressive as well. It seems to me there are many players whose second serve (the actual shot) is much better than Nadal's.

 

[Noleberic123]

It has to do with Nadals baseline prowess. And the fact most of his first shots after the second serve are on his FH

 

[Boom-Boom]

There's a strong link between baseline prowess and winning many points on your second serve because it's usually a somewhat neutral rally to start.

this obviously

 

[The Green Mile]

Not trying to turn this into a he's mostly played weak players thing, but has he played anyone that seriously attacked or could threaten him on his 2nd serve?

James Blake loved to attack 2nd serves, he had his fair share of success against Rafa. Thing is, a lot of players struggle finding that balance on 2nd serve return, and misfire a lot as they try to force the issue a bit too much when facing Rafa or a lot of the top players really. Sure, being aggressive against the 2nd serve is a wonderful play, it's just a lot of players either go for broke or play it very safe.

Also, what NatF said, and how Rafa gets his forehand into play many times like others.

 

[Bender]

Not trying to turn this into a he's mostly played weak players thing, but has he played anyone that seriously attacked or could threaten him on his 2nd serve?

There's Djokovic, and there's also Santiago Giraldo, who swings for the fences on second serve returns, not to mention Blake and sometimes Gonzalez.

But the issue with your implication is that Nadal's second serve as a single shot is weak, but players now are too stupid / incompetent to take advantage of it, and that is not the case. If you've ever watched court-level footage of someone receiving Nadal's serves, you'll find that his serves--first and second--have incredible action on the ball.

So what I'm saying is that most players can't tee off Nadal's second serves not because they're magnanimous or benevolent, but because they're unable to. Most players can barely handle a barrage of Rafa's topspin FHs, and those come in at 60-80 mph at 3,000 rpm--how exactly are they going to tee off his serves, which have even more RPM and pace that he has almost complete control over?

Just because the serve isn't fast doesn't mean it's a powderpuff serve...okay, they were powderpuff in 2015 and 2016, but then again everything in Nadal's arsenal save for his BH were powderpuff in those years.

And of course, there's Rafa's second shot, which is up there as one of the greatest.

 

[ibbi]

He uses it to set up his strongest shot.

 

[SpinToWin]

It's more complex than just the baseline prowess.

He usually plays a lefty slice serve to the backhand as a second serve, which is a very uncomfortable serve for the majority of players. Most players are righties, and thus the ball moves away from them, stretching them wide on their backhand which is the shot with the shorter and less flexible range by nature. You can't play a backhand on the stretch like you can a forehand on the stretch.

So, basically, it's hard for the returner to grab the initiative on the second serve of Nadal, and due to the placement of Rafa's serve, it's much easier to play to his forehand than to his backhand. From there, Nadal can take charge of the rally with his forehand off of usually neutral shots and he uses his baseline prowess in order to win the majority of points. Hence his great stats.

What really hurts him is when somebody can step in and take the return early, either hard and deep into the forehand or placed well into the backhand corner (though the latter is much more risky with Nadal's current backhand I'd say). That's what Fed did to him early this year, to a degree that Rafa started targeting the forehand more with his serve.

 

[vanioMan]

Rafa's serve is greatly underrated in here imo. He puts a lot of action on the ball. Tons of spin, his placement is quite good and he is very smart with changing the direction. He has also used the body serve excellently this year (latest example would be his match vs Young yesterday).

 

[Shaolin]

Because its lefty. His same serve if he was serving righty would get obliterated.

 

[KINGROGER]

He can spin it out wide to BH which sets up his FH as the second shot and gives him control of the point.

As well as his clay stats which of course boost this stat.

 

[xFedal]

James Blake loved to attack 2nd serves, he had his fair share of success against Rafa. Thing is, a lot of players struggle finding that balance on 2nd serve return, and misfire a lot as they try to force the issue a bit too much when facing Rafa or a lot of the top players really. Sure, being aggressive against the 2nd serve is a wonderful play, it's just a lot of players either go for broke or play it very safe.

Also, what NatF said, and how Rafa gets his forehand into play many times like others.

Blakes last win over Rafa was in 2006 over 11 years ago lol...

 

[The Green Mile]

Blakes last win over Rafa was in 2006 over 11 years ago lol...

So? Their matches were in a four year period. From 2005 USO to 2009 Shanghai, Rafa leading the H2H 4-3, Blake stealing a set in each of his defeats to Rafa as well. It's obvious if you've watched the match up.

 

[augustobt]

Because its lefty. His same serve if he was serving righty would get obliterated.

Damn, I loved that shot. From time to time I come to rewatch this on youtube, shamefully no one have a decent (and proper) recording.

 

[The Green Mile]

Damn, I loved that shot. From time to time I come to rewatch this on youtube, shamefully no one have a decent (and proper) recording.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154148715622187

 

[Sport]

He can spin it out wide to BH which sets up his FH as the second shot which gives him control of the point.

As well as his clay stats which of course boost this stat.

I agree on this one. On clay serve is not so relevant, and of course, it will increase Rafa's stats.

 

[Get A Grip]

Was surprised to just read this "Beyond the Numbers" article about Nadal's dominance on second serve points. He's a career leader in this stat and his numbers in 2017 have been off the charts. So what makes Nadal so strong on his own second serve? The first shot after the serve? Because the serve itself doesn't seem that great.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/nadal-infosys-wimbledon-2017

His 2nd serve got a whole lot better this year, like an extra 10kph.
For the past few years, his 2nd serve was a liability, it was weak and predictable in placement, so I'm surprised he was leader previous to this year, but that can only be the first shot after the serve, I would guess.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Blakes last win over Rafa was in 2006 over 11 years ago lol...

His H2H is a perfectly respectable 3-4 against Nadal. Nothing to sneeze at.

 

[tennis_pro]

Everything that comes after it.

 

[tennis_pro]

Blakes last win over Rafa was in 2006 over 11 years ago lol...

And Nadal's last win against Blake was 8 years ago.

But, wait, there's more.

Sampras hasn't beaten Federer in 16+ years!

 

[Noleberic123]

Blakes last win over Rafa was in 2006 over 11 years ago lol...

And Rod Laver has never beaten Federer

 

[ultradr]

Was surprised to just read this "Beyond the Numbers" article about Nadal's dominance on second serve points. He's a career leader in this stat and his numbers in 2017 have been off the charts. So what makes Nadal so strong on his own second serve? The first shot after the serve? Because the serve itself doesn't seem that great.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/nadal-infosys-wimbledon-2017

Rafa's 2nd serve winning % was not good 2014-2016.
To compensate it, he has become one of the best returner on tour during this time.

 

[Waspsting]

I assumed it was a combination of -

- strength of his ground game (as opposed to the serve itself)

- relatively high proportion of matches on clay (where point 1 is accentuated still more)

- very few double faults

But I'm looking at the numbers. .. and they are not completely supporting the first two points

----

He's -
- joint leader on clay with John Isner (56%)
- joint leader on hard with Roger Federer (57%)
- joint 2nd place on grass with Wayne Arthurs and Isner (58%), 1% behind co-leaders Federer and Milos Raonic

(I would have bet 100 bucks he wasn't that high up on hard and grass courts)

The people pointing out the serve out wide and taking the first groundstroke with a forehand are missing something

- It's not easy orchestrating a first forehand, especially when everyone will surely be looking to see to it that the opposite happen. If it were, everyone would do it

- on the deuce court, that's to the right handers forehand, which most people would want to avoid and if the serve itself isn't good, is liable to get creamed

---

I can only conclude that yes, he has an exceptionally good second serve - better than I'd thought anyway

And further note he appears to be more comfortable attacking with his ground game than I had thought

 

[Roddick85]

I don't think his 2nd serve is that great of a stroke. He wins a lot of 2nd serve points because he backs it up extremely well with his ground game. Between 2014-2016, his forehand was nowhere near the weapon it once was, he lost confidence, was making mistakes and that really cost him in the serve department because let's face it, Rafa's serve by itself has never been that great of a shot. What's different this year is that Rafa seems to have retrieved his ground game, his forehand is back to it's former glory, so he manages to defend his 2nd serve a lot better. The added confidence definitely helps, and I believe he's also hitting his serve a bit bigger now as well which helps.