what makes the serve so 'snappy'

[10sbeast888]

I searched first but the existing threads are either too old or more likely distractions... at @Digital Atheist request I'd like to get experts opinions

the serve is a 'developing' part of my game so I'd like others to input first, and add my understanding later.

the question is what makes the serve so snappy. e.g. the fh has a SSC 'lag n snap' release but the serve release feels totally different.. iow much more snappy. it's a burst acceleration that feels different from a simple SSC.

 

[nyta2]

for me, similar to the fh... the key is allowing the racquet overtake the hand

 

[eah123]

I see 2 basic kinds of pro serves. One kind is the lag and snap kind. Usually these are servers that use an abbreviated takeback. The other is the continuously accelerating kind, more commonly using a full takeback motion.

I think both can be done effectively, but the lag and snap kind is harder on your elbow and shoulder from my experiments with it.

 

[10sbeast888]

question is - what exactly happens at the 'wrist snap'..

sure there is the lag and the racket head gets released past the hand all that..

maybe we're talking about different things... do you not feel the serve being more snappy? in other words a fh release feels like a gradual build up and the racket goes past the hand. but the serve release feels like a sudden burst.

 

[10sbeast888]

the drill at the 2:00 mark hitting with the other side, should allow you to feel the snappiness.. question is why does it work.

 

[Bambooman]

The racquet head moves faster.

 

[optic yellow]

what does SSC mean

 

[ballmachineguy]

Stretch shorten cycle

 

[10sbeast888]

The racquet head moves faster.

But why. You can argue the fh uses almost the same muscles. Legs hips core ISR. and the fh is mostly horizontal without fighting gravity.

The serve has to swing UP against gravity. Why it ends up faster.

 

[LOBALOT]

For me it is the lag and also making sure my arm/grip is really loose. So many people are crushing their racquet grip when they serve.

 

[Bambooman]

But why. You can argue the fh uses almost the same muscles. Legs hips core ISR. and the fh is mostly horizontal without fighting gravity.

The serve has to swing UP against gravity. Why it ends up faster.

Because you are swinging up and over in an arc. The body can generate more power and speed that way.
Compare throwing a Javelin versus a Discus.

 

[10sbeast888]

Because you are swinging up and over in an arc. The body can generate more power and speed that way.
Compare throwing a Javelin versus a Discus.

Pancake goes up and over also. But why no power.

 

[10sbeast888]

For me it is the lag and also making sure my arm/grip is really loose. So many people are crushing their racquet grip when they serve.

Relaxed fh has lags also. Why is the serve faster.

 

[Digital Atheist]

I searched first but the existing threads are either too old or more likely distractions... at @Digital Atheist request I'd like to get experts opinions

the serve is a 'developing' part of my game so I'd like others to input first, and add my understanding later.

the question is what makes the serve so snappy. e.g. the fh has a SSC 'lag n snap' release but the serve release feels totally different.. iow much more snappy. it's a burst acceleration that feels different from a simple SSC.

Well it makes sense to have a dedicated thread to the thing you consider most important on the serve, and you already have some interesting replies!

 

[LOBALOT]

Relaxed fh has lags also. Why is the serve faster.

Not clear on the question. Are you asking why you can hit a serve faster than you can hit a forehand?

 

[10sbeast888]

Not clear on the question. Are you asking why you can hit a serve faster than you can hit a forehand?

Yes.

 

[LOBALOT]

The earth is power. power to the earth!

I think there are a lot of factors including that on the serve your body/kinetic chain is longer and can better coil and leverage power from the earth as the motion is direct but opposite path of the earth.

If I stand and throw a ball overhand and then throw a ball sideways along your hip like a ground stroke I am able to throw it with much more velocity. Sideways is parallel to the earth not in alignment and opposite to it.

peace brotha!

 

[10sbeast888]

The earth is power. power to the earth!

I think there are a lot of factors including that on the serve your body/kinetic chain is longer and can better coil and leverage power from the earth as the motion is direct but opposite path of the earth.

If I stand and throw a ball overhand and then throw a ball sideways along my hip like a ground stroke I am able to throw it with much more velocity. Sideways is parallel to the earth not in alignment and opposite to it.

peace brotha!

lol good theory, but doesn't explain why pancake serve has no power

 

[LOBALOT]

lol good theory, but doesn't explain why pancake serve has no power

Who said pancake serve??????

I asked you 2 posts up if you were asking for why serve has less power than forehand. You said yes.

I'm sooooo confused!!!

 

[10sbeast888]

Who said pancake serve??????

I asked you 2 posts up if you were asking for why serve has less power than forehand. You said yes.

I'm sooooo confused!!!

well ATP S1 speed avg = 121 mph; fh = 80 mph.. a big gap.

sorry if I answered your earlier question wrong. question is why does serve is so much faster... similar components of the chain - legs, hips, core, ISR.

'up and over' the ball is NOT the answer, as a pancake serve does that and has no power.

so the question remains, why is the serve much faster than the fh.

 

[optic yellow]

But why. You can argue the fh uses almost the same muscles. Legs hips core ISR. and the fh is mostly horizontal without fighting gravity.

The serve has to swing UP against gravity. Why it ends up faster.

Overhead vs. sidearm are not the exact same throwing motion.

 

[Bambooman]

Pancake goes up and over also. But why no power.

Because it is hit slower and undercut like a floating slice.

 

[Bambooman]

You are also using your body as more of a whip when serving. A forehand uses more trunk rotation. The former is a longer lever arm.

 

[tennis3]

 

[zoingy]

The way it feels to me, ISR doesn't play nearly as big of a role in developing rhs in the forehand, but the reason of depends on the style. For a straight arm, there's not that much of a lever arm that ISR can act upon. For a bent arm, ISR has some forearm length as the lever arm, but there's not much more kinetic chain amplification after that, if that makes sense.

In the serve, ISR has a full forearm length to act on when the arm is bent, and there's a substantial whip effect & ballerina effect as the elbow straightens, so that ISR motion gets amplified.

 

[ballmachineguy]

On the serve, you use a Conti grip and are hitting down into the court. On the forehand, you have Eastern or SW grip, usually, and need to bring the ball from hip-to-torso height up and over the net and back down. What do you think the exit velocity is on those balls players hit into the upper deck after winning a U.S. Open match? They’re probably using a continental grip there. How about that ball Shapovalov launched at that empire. He wasn’t worried about getting that back down into the court.

 

[WildVolley]

Internal shoulder rotation. Where's Chas Tennis when you need him?

 

[MGArchitect]

I can claim no biomechanics expertise whatsoever, but generally in baseball, overhand pitchers are much faster than sidearm pitchers and submarine pitchers. When you split wood, you do it from above rather than from the side. When you hammer, you do it from above rather than the side. And while baseball players can certainly swing with power from the side, they are aiming up when hitting for power.

In these examples I see two things that stand out to me. The path is either mostly up or down (not trying to go up and over and back down, but closer to straight) and the swing path is primarily closer to one’s center of gravity. Why a traditional serve is faster than a pancake serve I think might be because more muscle groups are recruited, including rotational velocity, which you don’t get when you pancake it. Ultimately more RHS in a good serve motion than a waiter tray and also more RHS than in a forehand.

Other similar examples in my mind include a volleyball serve (jump vs standing), freestyle vs breaststroke, palm down hook in boxing (https://www.quora.com/Biomechanically-what-is-the-most-powerful-punch-you-can-throw), or American football QB throwing a bomb or Hail Mary vs a short out or a check down. Now I’m wondering about knife and axe throwing too… down the rabbit hole I go.

 

[10sbeast888]

I can claim no biomechanics expertise whatsoever, but generally in baseball, overhand pitchers are much faster than sidearm pitchers and submarine pitchers. When you split wood, you do it from above rather than from the side. When you hammer, you do it from above rather than the side. And while baseball players can certainly swing with power from the side, they are aiming up when hitting for power.

In these examples I see two things that stand out to me. The path is either mostly up or down (not trying to go up and over and back down, but closer to straight) and the swing path is primarily closer to one’s center of gravity. Why a traditional serve is faster than a pancake serve I think might be because more muscle groups are recruited, including rotational velocity, which you don’t get when you pancake it. Ultimately more RHS in a good serve motion than a waiter tray and also more RHS than in a forehand.

Other similar examples in my mind include a volleyball serve (jump vs standing), freestyle vs breaststroke, palm down hook in boxing (https://www.quora.com/Biomechanically-what-is-the-most-powerful-punch-you-can-throw), or American football QB throwing a bomb or Hail Mary vs a short out or a check down. Now I’m wondering about knife and axe throwing too… down the rabbit hole I go.

we are getting 'warmer warmer'..

the diff is the forearm rotation... aka supination and pronation, which is missing in a pancake serve... the question is why is IT so snappy.

 

[J011yroger]

In a forehand the movement of the hand through space creates power and the rotation of the hand/arm creates spin.

In the serve the movement of the hand through space creates spin and the rotation of the hand/arm creates power.

In a pancake serve or recreational forehand the movement of the hand through space creates the power and spin and the rotation of the hand and arm does nothing.


J

 

[10sbeast888]

In a forehand the movement of the hand through space creates power and the rotation of the hand/arm creates spin.

In the serve the movement of the hand through space creates spin and the rotation of the hand/arm creates power.

In a pancake serve or recreational forehand the movement of the hand through space creates the power and spin and the rotation of the hand and arm does nothing.


J

that explains why the serve is faster than the fh.


the question remains, why is the said rotation in the serve so snappy, or 'bursty'... biomechanically speaking..

 

[J011yroger]

that explains why the serve is faster than the fh.


the question remains, why is the said rotation in the serve so snappy, or 'bursty'... biomechanically speaking..

Why don't you make a better attempt to be articulate and I'll make a better attempt to answer your question?

J

 

[10sbeast888]

Why don't you make a better attempt to be articulate and I'll make a better attempt to answer your question?

J

does the arm/hand rotation feel the same? between the serve and the fh?

 

[Dragy]

If talking particularly about the "snap", the reason it happens different to FH is a much more drastic change of direction, sharper curve: a server would initially accelerate much more directly, with a pitching motion (still circular but much more aligned than FH swing), and as arm gets extended - hand sharply curves into following the big circle. This is commonly referred to as "stopping the hand" or "stopping the elbow", but it's a change of direction actually. This exactly allows the racquet head to "snap" around and surpass the hand rapidly.

Comparison stroke is "squash shot" which is interesting to examine: one basically uses nowhere near amount on power (no "pitching", not much shoulder SSC, no leg drive and cartwheel), but still can deliver quite hard "snappy" stroke.

 

[Rosstour]

I see 2 basic kinds of pro serves. One kind is the lag and snap kind. Usually these are servers that use an abbreviated takeback. The other is the continuously accelerating kind, more commonly using a full takeback motion.

I think both can be done effectively, but the lag and snap kind is harder on your elbow and shoulder from my experiments with it.

I feel like adding more lag helped me recover lost velocity after a torn rotator cuff

 

[Shroud]

Stretch shorten cycle

Omg. More trolling poasts for you? How dare you

 

[nyta2]

the question is what makes the serve so snappy.

What makes getting hit at the end of whip (or wet tipped towel!) hurt so much…

 

[10sbeast888]

What makes getting hit at the end of whip (or wet tipped towel!) hurt so much…

it's wet?

 

[J011yroger]

does the arm/hand rotation feel the same? between the serve and the fh?

Pretty much, yea.

Are you too tight on your forehand?

J

 

[10sbeast888]

Pretty much, yea.

Are you too tight on your forehand?

J

can't be the same... there is no supination in the fh unless with a w grip.

fh not tight really.... grip pressure 3/10.

 

[J011yroger]

can't be the same... there is no supination in the fh unless with a w grip.

fh not tight really.... grip pressure 3/10.

No supination?!

What happens when you swing forward?

J

 

[10sbeast888]

No supination?!

What happens when you swing forward?

J

ESR + ulnar deviation... maybe some supination does happen but that is not intentional..

but in a serve you can overload the supination.

 

[NattyGut]

question is - what exactly happens at the 'wrist snap'..

sure there is the lag and the racket head gets released past the hand all that..

maybe we're talking about different things... do you not feel the serve being more snappy? in other words a fh release feels like a gradual build up and the racket goes past the hand. but the serve release feels like a sudden burst.

First, post a serve video if you actually have a question on your serve. Second, you suggest there is a "wrist snap" and that is false. The notion of a "wrist snap" on the serve has long been dispelled. The energy comes through the shoulder rotation and then pronation of the forearm. The serve is over at pronation, whatever the racquet does thereafter is deceleration not acceleration.

 

[10sbeast888]

First, post a serve video if you actually have a question on your serve. Second, you suggest there is a "wrist snap" and that is false. The notion of a "wrist snap" on the serve has long been dispelled. The energy comes through the shoulder rotation and then pronation of the forearm. The serve is over at pronation, whatever the racquet does thereafter is deceleration not acceleration.

ok grammar police, this is not a technique question, rather a biomechanical one.

why is the release of the supination in a serve faster than a ssc release in a fh.

 

[NattyGut]

ok grammar police, this is not a technique question, rather a biomechanical one.

why is the release of the supination in a serve faster than a ssc release in a fh.

Fortunate for you there is no such thing as the grammar police, as you’d be serving a life sentence. This is another one of your threads with no point. Good job

 

[10sbeast888]

If there were grammar police, you’d be serving a life sentence. Cool trolling the boards. Get another troll thread going that has no purpose or direction. There is no writer snap but you should know that already given you are so critical of 4.5 players.

laying out fax is critical? so be it.

something doesn't compute in you're brain and it's troll? oh well.

 

[NattyGut]

laying out fax is critical? so be it.

something doesn't compute in you're brain and it's troll? oh well.

Fax? You’re?

You’re a good troll. Over 300 posts in 5 days. And nothing said

 

[10sbeast888]

Fax? You’re?

You’re a good troll. Over 300 posts in 5 days. And nothing said

plenty sed, real substance.... didn't compute for you... can't help.

 

[J011yroger]

ok grammar police, this is not a technique question, rather a biomechanical one.

why is the release of the supination in a serve faster than a ssc release in a fh.

Technique is biomechanics.

Your strokes are technically flawed so your biomechanics are ipso facto inefficient.

J

 

[10sbeast888]

Technique is biomechanics.

Your strokes are technically flawed so your biomechanics are ipso facto inefficient.

J

The forearm rotation obviously has bigger range in a serve. forget it.