What makes up a "good serve"?

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So everyone keeps arguing about who serves well and who doesn't. So if you don't actually watch a player on video, how would you determine just by looking at stats? What stats would u look at? Is it speed? Aces? % first serve?

Since this is pro player discussion out of the current player who would you rank the top 3 serve wise?
 
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So everyone keeps arguing about who serves well and who doesn't. So if you don't actually watch a player on video, how would you determine just by looking at stats? What stats would u look at? Is it speed? Aces? % first serve?

Since this is pro player discussion out of the current player who would you rank the top 3 serve wise?

I always say that how good a serve is mainly depends on three things:

Speed
Accuracy
Consistency

Speed can be quantified simply by looking at the average speed of the 1st and 2nd serves.

For consistency, we can look at %1st serves in(for consistency of 1st serves), and %2nd serves in (for consistency of 2nd serves).

Accuracy is slightly harder to quantify but if needed, we can look at the average distance from the two corners for 1st and 2nd serves that were aimed towards the corners. The smaller this distance, the more accurate the serve is. Unfortunately, we don't have such a stat.

Top 3 1st serves:

1. Ivo Karlovic
2. Andy Roddick
3. Sam Querrey

Top 3 2nd serves:

1. John Isner
2. Andy Roddick
3. Ivo Karlovic/Ivan Ljubicic (followed closely by Roger Federer).
 
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If you want to see the greatest serve of all time, just watch Nadal, and you will know what makes up a good/great serve.
 
So everyone keeps arguing about who serves well and who doesn't. So if you don't actually watch a player on video, how would you determine just by looking at stats? What stats would u look at? Is it speed? Aces? % first serve?

Since this is pro player discussion out of the current player who would you rank the top 3 serve wise?

Top 3 are great not "good" serves. almost every top 100 male pro has "good" serve
 
And the greatest FH, greatest BH, greatest passing shots, lobs, volleys, movement, knees etc etc

You forgot overheads, slice serves, topspin serves, flat serves, slice FH and BH, serve and volley, calling the trainer, withdrawal as Wimbledon Champ, etc.
 
1) Clutchness
.
.
.
2) Accuracy
3) Speed

That is why I argued that Fed had the best serving on tour for a long time (although his serve is failing him lately). He could stuck an ace in your face when he needed it the most, and he's done it consistently. Players like Karlovic can hit a billion aces in the match but when they reach the TB they will hit a DF and lose the set/match, making all the previous aces quite worthless.

So, for the best serve, I would say Roddick and Ivo take it, but for the best, most intelligent serving, Federer was the best server for quite a few years. Nadal is actually becoming a great server despite not having a great serve.
 
If you want to see the greatest serve of all time, just watch Nadal, and you will know what makes up a good/great serve.

are u being sarcastic here, coz Last I check u were quite dismmisive of Nadal, but recently seemed to have changed ur tone, not sure if that's a sarcasm...
 
are u being sarcastic here, coz Last I check u were quite dismmisive of Nadal, but recently seemed to have changed ur tone, not sure if that's a sarcasm...

Pure sarcasm, I'm yet to see him say something nice about rafa. Plus while rafa's serve is improving it's not quite there yet I think.
 
You forgot overheads, slice serves, topspin serves, flat serves, slice FH and BH, serve and volley, calling the trainer, withdrawal as Wimbledon Champ, etc.

Drak, one last thing I think you might not have even known about Nadal. Did you realize he only had ONE "legitimate" loss in his entire career? That's right and let me explain. Any loss prior to 2007 was a teen-aged "pre-prime" Nadal so of course those don't count. Any loss except one from 2007 - present was due to either: "injury", "fatigue" or outright "exhaustion".

The only loss he's ever had was to Tsonga at the 2008 Australian Open. And we are thinking about not counting that one because Tsonga has not gone on to have a brilliant career so it must have been a fluke.
 
So everyone keeps arguing about who serves well and who doesn't. So if you don't actually watch a player on video, how would you determine just by looking at stats? What stats would u look at? Is it speed? Aces? % first serve?

Since this is pro player discussion out of the current player who would you rank the top 3 serve wise?

To me, the best serve is the one that draws the weakest returns, or no returns at all.
 
Pure sarcasm, I'm yet to see him say something nice about rafa.


Thats because if posters aren't saying Nadal is the greatest at whatever topic is being discused, clueless posters like you take it as an insult. Oh, and by the way, I was saying Nadal would Wimbledon and was a very good volleyer years before you or the other ****s came along.
 
Drak, one last thing I think you might not have even known about Nadal. Did you realize he only had ONE "legitimate" loss in his entire career? That's right and let me explain. Any loss prior to 2007 was a teen-aged "pre-prime" Nadal so of course those don't count. Any loss except one from 2007 - present was due to either: "injury", "fatigue" or outright "exhaustion".

The only loss he's ever had was to Tsonga at the 2008 Australian Open. And we are thinking about not counting that one because Tsonga has not gone on to have a brilliant career so it must have been a fluke.


nadal was still going thru puberty so it's the same as being injured. :)
 
I don't care if you call him a talentless moron,

Perfect example of what I was stating before. Anyone who says "X player is more talented than Nadal", equates in your "logical" world as, "Nadal is a talentless moron".

Go take those logic courses, and while you are at it, get your money back from that professor who gave you an "A" in logic.
 
Like I said i don't really care what you think of him, good or bad.

Sure you do. If not, you wouldn't keep bringing me up and crying about me not ever making a nice comment about him.

"Drakulie doesn't think Nadal is the greatest". boo-hoo.
 
I started this thread, because I know most people don't think he has a good serve. So maybe just maybe, we can have a thread that doesn't turn into a Nadal vs the rest of the world battle.

You need to read these two sentences and check yourself.

You started this thread because "most people don't think he (nadal) has a good serve". So, you acknowledge you started this thread because of him, and then you go on to state you hope this doesn't turn into a "Nadal vs the rest of the world battle", and claim "I'm the one who brought him up"???

LOL.

Hurry up and go take those logic courses.
 
To say I started this thread because of him is once again your exaggeration technique at work.

I started this thread, because I know most people don't think he has a good serve.


LMAO!!!!

spock-illogical.png
 
1) Clutchness
.
.
2) Accuracy
3) Speed

That is why I argued that Fed had the best serving on tour for a long time.... He could stuck an ace in your face when he needed it the most...

So, for the best serve, I would say Roddick and Ivo take it, but for the best, most intelligent serving, Federer was the best server for quite a few years
I agree totally. Federer, more than anyone in the past 6 or so years, has been closest to Sampras in the clutchness you mention - an ability to produce serving magic when he's break point down or 0-40. Roddick, Ivo etc pail in comparison in this area imo.

On Roddicks serve and accuracy. While great, I think it is too often quite predictable. Sure he can throw down bombs but, as we've seen from many players with 220km/h serves, it doesn't really pay off that well if you're serving them within reach of the returner (Fed on many occasions has made Roddick's serve look easy to return). On the other hand Sampras and Federer could/can serve 20km/h slower but within an inch of the corners and get way more benefit from their serve. "Dime serving" as Agassi calls it - the hardest serves to defend against and which only a couple of players at any time can pull out at key moments as those two.

An example of this can be seen in Federer's loss to Berdych at Wimbledon. Tons said Berdych was slamming down big serves but Federer actually hit more aces, fewer double-faults, had a higher winning % on his own 2nd serves, and a faster 2nd serve average speed. (he just let himself down elsewhere and Berdych was on fire when it really mattered)
 
I agree totally. Federer, more than anyone in the past 6 or so years, has been closest to Sampras in the clutchness you mention - an ability to produce serving magic when he's break point down or 0-40. Roddick, Ivo etc pail in comparison in this area imo.

On Roddicks serve and accuracy. While great, I think it is too often quite predictable. Sure he can throw down bombs but, as we've seen from many players with 220km/h serves, it doesn't really pay off that well if you're serving them within reach of the returner (Fed on many occasions has made Roddick's serve look easy to return). On the other hand Sampras and Federer could/can serve 20km/h slower but within an inch of the corners and get way more benefit from their serve. "Dime serving" as Agassi calls it - the hardest serves to defend against and which only a couple of players at any time can pull out at key moments as those two.

An example of this can be seen in Federer's loss to Berdych at Wimbledon. Tons said Berdych was slamming down big serves but Federer actually hit more aces, fewer double-faults, had a higher winning % on his own 2nd serves, and a faster 2nd serve average speed. (he just let himself down elsewhere and Berdych was on fire when it really mattered)

So true on both those points. Every time Nadal is in a sticky situation, the first thing I think is, wouldn't it be lovely to have fed's serve so you can ace your way out of this mess?! He's really good with that. (Fed)

It's also interesting about the Berdych match, I didn't actually notice, but Fed did hit a lot of aces and his double faults were low. Which surprises me, particularly because whenever he's having an off day he double faults like crazy. He has 7 df in the match against Falla, which considering he averages 1-2 max double faults a match, it was a lot. Nadal is the same way, his df count is really low, it's an easy indicator of whether or not he's really having a bad day or just BSing. That's what I've noticed anyway.

I haven't watch a lot of Sampras matches, but I do love Fed's serve!
 
So everyone keeps arguing about who serves well and who doesn't. So if you don't actually watch a player on video, how would you determine just by looking at stats? What stats would u look at? Is it speed? Aces? % first serve?

Since this is pro player discussion out of the current player who would you rank the top 3 serve wise?

There is only one thing that matters, how many points does your serve allow you to win.

Nadal has one of the slowest serves, however everyone talks about how difficult it is to return, even Roger has an insanely hard time returning that serve, Novak, Agassi, etc.
 
There is only one thing that matters, how many points does your serve allow you to win.

Nadal has one of the slowest serves, however everyone talks about how difficult it is to return, even Roger has an insanely hard time returning that serve, Novak, Agassi, etc.

Nadal does have an effective serve

But federer has had difficulty returning it only on a couple of occasions, he handles it fine most of the times ...

novak doesn't have much trouble returning it

agassi was way past his returning best when he played nadal
 
LOL. You are such a Nadal Hater.

fact is, Nadal has the biggest serve in the game today.

Vamos!

Agreed. I mean his serve is ridonkulous. The movement. The speed. The consistency. The intimidating butt pick right before the serve! It is the best serve of all time. Borg is lucky that Nadal wasn't there to serve and volley his ass off the courts of Wimbledon. Borg wouldn't of stood a chance against Nadal.
 
OK, now we're going somewhere.
I totally agree (I would add variety) and that's why quality of serve is not only determined by # of aces.

So does Nadal have a good serve? I am just curious... do you think it has variety?
 
Nadal does have an effective serve

But federer has had difficulty returning it only on a couple of occasions, he handles it fine most of the times ...

novak doesn't have much trouble returning it

agassi was way past his returning best when he played nadal

What was I thinking, all those pros are morons what do they know! And Nadal always loses break points and tie breakers all the time because of that slow serve.
 
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So does Nadal have a good serve? I am just curious... do you think it has variety?
It does particularly on crucial points. It has massive spin and good placement (great disguise). The speed has improved considerably as well as his second serve, those are still his weakest points when he's not 100%.
 
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