what needs nadal to do to become the GOAT from now?

[dominikk1985]

Nadals h2h against fed is certainly not meaningless as tennis is a game of direct duells (like boxing) but still no sane person would rank nadal now as the GOAT.

In fact I have not only fed but also laver, pete and maybe even borg ahead of him as of now.

I think that he is done winning non clay slams but if he really manages to put up some more good years what does he need to do to overtake fed?

He already has more masters wins and the h2h, but less weeks at 1, less overall tournament wins and less slams.

the biggest thing for he has to do for me is winning another HC slam on both HC slams. HC is the most important surface today and I consider one win a fluke. also he needs to win another wimbledon to establish dominance at a second major (one is a little thin). to complete the picture another RG win would be nice. if he cannot win another wimby winning 10 RG might also do it.

I think he also needs to regain the no. 1 spot for at least half a year.

so for me if he wins every major again for a total of 16 slams plus regaining the no. 1 spot he is the GOAT even if he doesn't catch RF for titles, weeks at 1 and slams because of the h2h, second career slam and better opponents.

but anything short of that (which is almost 100% certain because of his injury status) and fed will remain the GOAT.

 

[veroniquem]

Ideally: a bit more time at #1 (that looks like it's gonna happen real soon), a few more slam titles and WTF of course.

 

[sureshs]

He needs to start losing to himself so that he can match Fed's performance

 

[tusharlovesrafa]

He needs to start losing to himself so that he can match Fed's performance

lol!!!,i think nadal will be too good for rafa!

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Fed's resume is just too long at this point. I don't think Nadal ever catches Fed to stake a claim as the GOAT.

However, I do think Nadal can, and will, hit No. 2 all time.

 

[monfed]

Ralph can't be GOAT coz he's a defender. A defender can never be GOAT. end of

 

[TMF]

Nadals h2h against fed is certainly not meaningless as tennis is a game of direct duells (like boxing) but still no sane person would rank nadal now as the GOAT.

In fact I have not only fed but also laver, pete and maybe even borg ahead of him as of now.

I think that he is done winning non clay slams but if he really manages to put up some more good years what does he need to do to overtake fed?

He already has more masters wins and the h2h, but less weeks at 1, less overall tournament wins and less slams.

the biggest thing for he has to do for me is winning another HC slam on both HC slams. HC is the most important surface today and I consider one win a fluke. also he needs to win another wimbledon to establish dominance at a second major (one is a little thin). to complete the picture another RG win would be nice. if he cannot win another wimby winning 10 RG might also do it.

I think he also needs to regain the no. 1 spot for at least half a year.

so for me if he wins every major again for a total of 16 slams plus regaining the no. 1 spot he is the GOAT even if he doesn't catch RF for titles, weeks at 1 and slams because of the h2h, second career slam and better opponents.

but anything short of that (which is almost 100% certain because of his injury status) and fed will remain the GOAT.

Please review these stats and that can give you a good answer.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6718942&postcount=87

 

[tusharlovesrafa]

bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

well,whining won't change anthing!:lol:

 

[kalyan4fedever]

Win atleast 5 non clay slams

 

[tusharlovesrafa]

Win atleast 5 non clay slams

hey dude,you are indian,right?? where are you from?

 

[monfed]

well,whining won't change anthing!:lol:

Instead of acting like a clown all the time,how about making an actual argument? Ralph is a defensive minded player, a counterpuncher, call him what you want,ultimately he's a defender who generally has less winners than his opponent in almost all his matches. A defender can't be GOAT,sorry.

Goalkeepers aren't considered as GOATs of soccer, it's the midfielders and forwards like Pele,Maradona are considered the GOATs.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Instead of acting like a clown all the time,how about making an actual argument? Ralph is a defensive minded player, a counterpuncher, call him what you want,ultimately he's a defender who generally has less winners than his opponent in almost all his matches. A defender can't be GOAT,sorry.

How is this an argument? It's your opinion.

 

[objectivity]

Instead of acting like a clown all the time,how about making an actual argument? Ralph is a defensive minded player, a counterpuncher, call him what you want,ultimately he's a defender who generally has less winners than his opponent in almost all his matches. A defender can't be GOAT,sorry.

Goalkeepers aren't considered as GOATs of soccer, it's the midfielders and forwards like Pele,Maradona are considered the GOATs.

actually there are people who consider franz beckenbauer a GOAT of soccer... and he was a defender...

 

[tusharlovesrafa]

Instead of acting like a clown all the time,how about making an actual argument? Ralph is a defensive minded player, a counterpuncher, call him what you want,ultimately he's a defender who generally has less winners than his opponent in almost all his matches. A defender can't be GOAT,sorry.

him being a defender doesn't change the fact he leads h2h 21-10 and well on his way to win more slams.I feel pity for fed,he folds like an aluminum foil against Rafa.History remember wins,no one cares whether he has less winners or more winners than his opponents.

At least learn to edit the quote properly. :lol:

 

[tusharlovesrafa]

actually there are people who consider franz beckenbauer a GOAT of soccer... and he was a defender...

i hope u r addressing this to monclown..

 

[monfed]

How is this an argument? It's your opinion.

This thread is ALL about opinion. I have stats to back up my opinion, here let's look at the widely considered GOATs of their respective sports:

Table Tennis GOAT: Jan-Ove Waldner
Badminton GOAT: Taufik Hidayat
Boxing GOAT: Ali
Tennis GOAT: Federer
Football GOAT: Pele/Maradona(both attack minded players)
Ice Hockey GOAT: Gretzky
Basketball GOAT: Jordan
Cricket GOAT: Bradman/Tendulkar/Viv Richards/Gary Sobers

All the above players are offensive players,even Bradman who played only test cricket is known for scoring at a fast run rate.

Fact is a defender like Ralph overachieved in an era of slow surfaces continually being slowed down,even Cincy is slow by ******'s own admission. Place Ralph in the 90s and he doesnt win anything outside clay, ok maybe 1 AO and that's being generous. No fracking way he wins USO/Wb in the 90s,sorry. Majority of Ralph's records are on slow surfaces like clay and slow HC.

 

[citybert]

If he steals Novak's goat then maybe that will be a start

 

[ScottleeSV]

Because of how his 'projected' Masters count is likely to be in the stratosphere by the time he's done, I could accept that Nadal is the GOAT were he to win 17 majors and at least 1 WTF.

If he doesn't get the WTF, 18 slams is required IMO.

A lot of work to do.

 

[kiki]

Two more wimbis and two WTF and he will be a solid challenger

 

[objectivity]

i hope u r addressing this to monclown..

bobby moore, a defender, is also usually regarded as england's finest soccer player ever.

lothar mattaeus, a german defensive midfielder / defender, is also in the discussion about germany's greatest players ever.

bill russell is another primarily defensive player in basket who is regarded as one of the best of all time.

this nonsense that only attacking players can be GOAT is just some personal preference. it is shared however by a large proportion of the population. that is why so few young talents want to play defense anymore in any sport, because the attacker gets all the glory and attention. driven primarily by america's obsession with individualism, and not collective success.

 

[hisrob777]

No matter what he is the greatest #2 of all time. I think he would have to break Federer's slam record, win a WTF, become number 1 again for at least the the next year and keep his head to head over Djokovic in check to be considered the GOAT.

 

[objectivity]

This thread is ALL about opinion. I have stats to back up my opinion, here let's look at the widely considered GOATs of their respective sports:

Table Tennis GOAT: Jan-Ove Waldner
Badminton GOAT: Taufik Hidayat
Boxing GOAT: Ali
Tennis GOAT: Federer
Football GOAT: Pele/Maradona(both attack minded players)
Ice Hockey GOAT: Gretzky
Basketball GOAT: Jordan
Cricket GOAT: Bradman/Tendulkar/Viv Richards/Gary Sobers

All the above players are offensive players,even Bradman who played only test cricket is known for scoring at a fast run rate.

Fact is a defender like Ralph overachieved in an era of slow surfaces continually being slowed down,even Cincy is slow by ******'s own admission. Place Ralph in the 90s and he doesnt win anything outside clay, ok maybe 1 AO and that's being generous. No fracking way he wins USO/Wb in the 90s,sorry. Majority of Ralph's records are on slow surfaces like clay and slow HC.

all this is true (except Ali who is actually more of a counter-attacker... remember his rope-a-dope strategy? frazier and foreman were actually the offensive ones...) ... but this is due to society's fascination with the more "visible" parts of any sport... the 130 mph ace down the T is always more visible than the solidly placed return that took away the server's angles. the 30m bamboozler that tore the soccer net is always more visible than the well timed interception that broke up the final pass. the windmill jam is always more visible than the well-timed rotation to break up the entry pass. and so on and so forth.

that's reality and it sucks frankly to be a defender. in fact, a case can be made that if a defender is actually in the conversation to be a GOAT, he / she must truly be exceptional.

 

[zam88]

I think if he got to 16 slams, and he's going to have enough masters to crush everyone else... and have a positive H2h against all his rivals?

that would get me to call him GOAT even if he doesn't catch up in weeks at #1 (which is a number Federer has set well beyond his reach) and never wins a WTF (it's just one tournament.. like missing a masters or something from your resume.).


I hate Nadal.. but what he's done is amazing and I resent him for it.

really I just have to hope he gets hurt at this point.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

He needs to make the next best of his era look ordinary!

 

[tennisdad65]

15-16 slams .. it becomes a heated debate because of his superior H2H with Fed.
17 slams and he is the undisputed GOAT.

Even 15 will be extremely tough with his knees + Novak on Hard Courts.

 

[monfed]

him being a defender doesn't change the fact he leads h2h 21-10 and well on his way to win more slams.

Yes an inherent matchup advantage your moonballing BH abuser inherently enjoys. The same moonballer who gets his *** handed on a platter by a player who hasn't even won a slam namely Nikolay Davydenko on HC and who bombed out in two consecutive Wimbys in the first week in his prime. What a legend this one-shot pony is.

I feel pity for fed,he folds like an aluminum foil against Rafa.History remember wins,no one cares whether he has less winners or more winners than his opponents.

Actually critics do care about the style of games played by the players in comparison,no exceptions. Only a blind bat like you will try to ignore how limited a player Ralph is compared to Fed using a matchup advantage to win.
I like how you say "noone cares" LMAO, like your wishful thinking is gonna add any weight to your lameass argument.

BTW your Raffi folded like a cheap tent 7 consecutive times to Djokovic in the middle of his prime and was mercilessly thrashed in straight sets in two consecutive masters in 2011 on his beloved clay and escaped another beatdown from Novak in the RG final and had Fed(who Ralph apparently owns) do the dirty work for him. The 7-0 scars will NEVER be erased. Never, no matter how much you try to wish it away,permanently etched to the disgraceful moonballer's legacy. Now that Novak's form has fallen off the grid, Ralph the eternal opportunist that he is, is ready to eat the cake. Some champ your Raffi is.

At least learn to edit the quote properly. :lol:

More strawmen from a lame troll.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

This thread is ALL about opinion. I have stats to back up my opinion, here let's look at the widely considered GOATs of their respective sports:

Table Tennis GOAT: Jan-Ove Waldner
Badminton GOAT: Taufik Hidayat
Boxing GOAT: Ali
Tennis GOAT: Federer
Football GOAT: Pele/Maradona(both attack minded players)
Ice Hockey GOAT: Gretzky
Basketball GOAT: Jordan
Cricket GOAT: Bradman/Tendulkar/Viv Richards/Gary Sobers

All the above players are offensive players,even Bradman who played only test cricket is known for scoring at a fast run rate.

Fact is a defender like Ralph overachieved in an era of slow surfaces continually being slowed down,even Cincy is slow by ******'s own admission. Place Ralph in the 90s and he doesnt win anything outside clay, ok maybe 1 AO and that's being generous. No fracking way he wins USO/Wb in the 90s,sorry. Majority of Ralph's records are on slow surfaces like clay and slow HC.

Defense is just harder to measure. And much of your list is team sports, where winning is a result of many factors, so we look to offense because it has stats. Not to mention that Americans, for example, prefer offense.

On the individual level winning is all that matters. And look and some of the best. Nadal and Borg, insane defenders. In wrestling, Karelin was an unbelievable defender, as was Dan Gable. How can you even bring up Ali without talking about his footwork, movement and defense. Mayweather is the same way.

 

[90's Clay]

1. Win 200 tournaments
2. Win 3 Calendar slams
3. 9 years at #1
4. 24 slams plus


... to be undisputed GOAT.

.. Yea tell Nadal I said good luck

 

[kiki]

What about winning the Grand Slam against the likes of Rosewall, Newcombe,Ashe,Roche,Emerson,Santana,Gimeno,Nastase,Smith,Stolle and Kodes?
That would help A LOT

 

[Deleted member 3771]

Yes an inherent matchup advantage your moonballing BH abuser inherently enjoys. The same moonballer who gets his *** handed on a platter by a player who hasn't even won a slam namely Nikolay Davydenko on HC and who bombed out in two consecutive Wimbys in the first week in his prime. What a legend this one-shot pony is.



Actually critics do care about the style of games played by the players in comparison,no exceptions. Only a blind bat like you will try to ignore how limited a player Ralph is compared to Fed using a matchup advantage to win.
I like how you say "noone cares" LMAO, like your wishful thinking is gonna add any weight to your lameass argument.

BTW your Raffi folded like a cheap tent 7 consecutive times to Djokovic in the middle of his prime and was mercilessly thrashed in straight sets in two consecutive masters in 2011 on his beloved clay and escaped another beatdown from Novak in the RG final and had Fed(who Ralph apparently owns) do the dirty work for him. The 7-0 scars will NEVER be erased. Never, no matter how much you try to wish it away. Now that Novak's form has fallen off the grid, Ralph the eternal opportunist that he is, is ready to eat the cake. Some champ your Raffi is.



More strawmen from a lame troll.

Fed's offense isn't good enough versus the big boys,fed's abysmal 35-45(44%) versus the big 4 doesn't cut it,and only winning 1/3 of the time versus the best of the era also doesn't cut it. Fed needs a bigger racquet and better offense. He needs to be more like Rafa.

 

[paulorenzo]

This thread is ALL about opinion. I have stats to back up my opinion, here let's look at the widely considered GOATs of their respective sports:

Table Tennis GOAT: Jan-Ove Waldner
Badminton GOAT: Taufik Hidayat
Boxing GOAT: Ali
Tennis GOAT: Federer
Football GOAT: Pele/Maradona(both attack minded players)
Ice Hockey GOAT: Gretzky
Basketball GOAT: Jordan
Cricket GOAT: Bradman/Tendulkar/Viv Richards/Gary Sobers

All the above players are offensive players,even Bradman who played only test cricket is known for scoring at a fast run rate.

Fact is a defender like Ralph overachieved in an era of slow surfaces continually being slowed down,even Cincy is slow by ******'s own admission. Place Ralph in the 90s and he doesnt win anything outside clay, ok maybe 1 AO and that's being generous. No fracking way he wins USO/Wb in the 90s,sorry. Majority of Ralph's records are on slow surfaces like clay and slow HC.

Ali is considered a defender, especially when compared to his peers and fellow greats of his era. he was a an out-boxer, relying on quick movement, distancing and weaker jabs and straights, as opposed to stronger hooks, to win bouts. out-boxers dont outright pummel their opponents but wear them down to get at times an easy knock out, or at the very least a decision.

so, with one fell swoop, you yourself have unwittingly proven that defenders can be GOATs.

while i dont think nadal will be goat (or want him to be for that matter), i dont buy the argument that someone cannot be goat simply by being more defensive than offensive.

 

[objectivity]

Table Tennis GOAT: Jan-Ove Waldner
Badminton GOAT: Taufik Hidayat

btw, badminton GOAT is definitely not taufik. lin dan is widely considered the greatest. his statistics blow any other player out of the water. and yes he is an exceptional attacking player. for the record, i think lee chong wei's achievements have vastly exceeded taufik's already, but lee chong wei is definitely a defensive player. table tennis GOAT, its harder to say. a case can be made for waldner but there are many others whose statistics have probably exceeded waldner's. players like zhang jike and liu guoliang are definitely in the mix too.

 

[CurrenFan]

I think you Nadal/Federer/Djokovic/Murray fanbois/fangurrls need to control your obsession with this GOAT thing and stop your incessant posting about why Player X is or isn't, or will or will not become, the greatest of all time. You do know that you're jinxing the object of your obsession by constantly keeping up the GOAT prattle, don't you? Seriously, give it a rest or your boy will get injured and be overtaken by his rivals.

 

[fednad]

This thread is ALL about opinion. I have stats to back up my opinion, here let's look at the widely considered GOATs of their respective sports:

Table Tennis GOAT: Jan-Ove Waldner
Badminton GOAT: Taufik Hidayat
Boxing GOAT: Ali
Tennis GOAT: Federer
Football GOAT: Pele/Maradona(both attack minded players)
Ice Hockey GOAT: Gretzky
Basketball GOAT: Jordan
Cricket GOAT: Bradman/Tendulkar/Viv Richards/Gary Sobers

All the above players are offensive players,even Bradman who played only test cricket is known for scoring at a fast run rate.

Fact is a defender like Ralph overachieved in an era of slow surfaces continually being slowed down,even Cincy is slow by ******'s own admission. Place Ralph in the 90s and he doesnt win anything outside clay, ok maybe 1 AO and that's being generous. No fracking way he wins USO/Wb in the 90s,sorry. Majority of Ralph's records are on slow surfaces like clay and slow HC.

I guess, Badminton world views Lin Dan as the undisputed GOAT (unless of course you take Rudi Hartono as a candidate if you want to look at sixties and seventies)

 

[Netspirit]

18 slams, at least a single WTF, and 303 weeks at #1 will do it for me.

 

[monfed]

Defense is just harder to measure. And much of your list is team sports, where winning is a result of many factors, so we look to offense because it has stats. Not to mention that Americans, for example, prefer offense.

So what if they're team sports? The players I mentioned HAVE gone above and beyond any team sport dynamic to achieve what they have. They have won matches single handedly for their teams. Jordan,Pele,Maradona,Gretzky are considered by most qualified experts as GOATs of their respective sport,I'm merely posting what the consensus is. Are you trying to say Pele/Maradona can be equated to a guy like say Rooney for example just cause its a team sport? Cmon now!

On the individual level winning is all that matters.

Sorry, you've spoken like a true Nadtroll here. Only Nadtrolls talk like this because Nadal lacks shotmaking ability,don't expect others to agree with this one-track thinking. Game styles and the manner in which a player wins elevates them to true greatness. Fed was being called GOAT because of the manner in which he beat Hewitt at USO 04,that win truly put him on the tennis map as the one to beat. The way he utterly destroyed one of the greatest defenders of Fed's era playing first strike tennis will long be remembered not only for it's result but the style of play employed.

And look and some of the best. Nadal and Borg, insane defenders.

To club Borg with Ralph as a pure defender is madness. Borg S&Ved plenty to win Wimby on fast grass and has a ton of indoor titles on quick courts.

In wrestling, Karelin was an unbelievable defender, as was Dan Gable. How can you even bring up Ali without talking about his footwork, movement and defense. Mayweather is the same way.

The saying floats like a butterfly,stings like a bee is used to describe Ali,the same is used to describe Fed too, that says plenty about Ali's attacking prowess.

 

[objectivity]

all this is true (except Ali who is actually more of a counter-attacker... remember his rope-a-dope strategy? frazier and foreman were actually the offensive ones...) ... but this is due to society's fascination with the more "visible" parts of any sport... the 130 mph ace down the T is always more visible than the solidly placed return that took away the server's angles. the 30m bamboozler that tore the soccer net is always more visible than the well timed interception that broke up the final pass. the windmill jam is always more visible than the well-timed rotation to break up the entry pass. and so on and so forth.

that's reality and it sucks frankly to be a defender. in fact, a case can be made that if a defender is actually in the conversation to be a GOAT, he / she must truly be exceptional.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

 

[Netspirit]

The thing is, even if Nadal surpasses Federer in the number of slams won, weeks at #1, and wins some WTFs to show that he can beat the top 8, Federer will forever remain a humongous tennis great, a "bigger Sampras".

 

[FrontHeadlock]

So what if they're team sports? The players I mentioned HAVE gone above and beyond any team sport dynamic to achieve what they have. They have won matches single handedly for their teams. Jordan,Pele,Maradona,Gretzky are considered by most qualified experts as GOATs of their respective sport,I'm merely posting what the consensus is. Are you trying to say Pele/Maradona can be equated to a guy like say Rooney for example just cause its a team sport? Cmon now!




Sorry, you've spoken like a true Nadtroll here. Only Nadtrolls talk like this because Nadal lacks shotmaking ability,don't expect others to agree with this one-track thinking. Game styles and the manner in which a player wins elevates them to true greatness. Fed was being called GOAT because of the manner in which he beat Hewitt at USO 04,that win truly put him on the tennis map as the one to beat. The way he utterly destroyed one of the greatest defenders of Fed's era playing first strike tennis will long be remembered not only for it's result but the style of play employed.



To club Borg with Ralph as a pure defender is madness. Borg S&Ved plenty to win Wimby on fast grass and has a ton of indoor titles on quick courts.



The saying floats like a butterfly,stings like a bee is used to describe Ali,the same is used to describe Fed too, that says plenty about Ali's attacking prowess.

Lol, I get it now. Well done.

 

[monfed]

Fed's offense isn't good enough versus the big boys,fed's abysmal 35-45(44%) versus the big 4 doesn't cut it,and only winning 1/3 of the time versus the best of the era also doesn't cut it. Fed needs a bigger racquet and better offense. He needs to be more like Rafa.

You're not even a Ralph fan so shut it. Butthurt Pete clowns need to stop trumpeting Ralph as their knight in shining armour.

As for your cherry-picked cream topped stat, Fed leads both Murray and Novak in slams ,only Ralph gave Fed's fits because of BH abuse, the whole world knows this fact.

 

[monfed]

Lol, I get it now. Well done.

Cmon why don't you agree? I mean seriously how can anyone with a straight face call a defender the greatest of all time in a sport esp like tennis where 2/3 surfaces rewards shotmaking(atleast it's supposed to)? If I'm wrong I'd love to be corrected here.

Look at all the past greats of tennis, Federer,Laver, Tilden,Borg,Sampras all were great attacking players though Borg was a great defender as well. But can Borg be really called a defensive minded player the way Ralph is? I have my doubts.

 

[pacman33]

Doesn't matter. FED is goat because he holds more records than anyone. Nadal is the best at beating Fed, there is no argument there. If Nadal was the greatest, why doesn't he have more records than Fed? Clay goat no doubt but all around, nope

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Cmon why don't you agree? I mean seriously how can anyone with a straight face call a defender the greatest of all time in a sport esp like tennis where 2/3 surfaces rewards shotmaking(atleast it's supposed to)? If I'm wrong I'd love to be corrected here.

Look at all the past greats of tennis, Federer,Laver, Tilden,Borg,Sampras all were great attacking players though Borg was a great defender as well. But can Borg be really called a defensive minded player the way Ralph is? I have my doubts.

This is really excellent flaming. Some of the best I've seen in a while. Most people are pretty bad at it.

 

[monfed]

This is really excellent flaming. Some of the best I've seen in a while. Most people are pretty bad at it.

So you disagree? Are you saying that Sampras,Laver,Tilden,Federer are defenders?

 

[FrontHeadlock]

So you disagree? Are you saying that Sampras,Laver,Tilden,Federer are defenders?

Lol.

10lolz.

 

[CurrenFan]

In wrestling, Karelin was an unbelievable defender,

You want to talk about a greatest ever, Aleksander Karelin went undefeated in his sport for 13 years. In fact, he had a 6-year streak in which no one scored a single point on him - not one. Unless it's something ultra-obscure like Tiddlewinks, no athlete in history, in any sport, has ever dominated the competition as utterly and completely as Karelin did.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

You want to talk about a greatest ever, Aleksander Karelin went undefeated in his sport for 13 years. In fact, he had a 6-year streak in which no one scored a single point on him - not one. Unless it's something ultra-obscure like Tiddlewinks, no athlete in history, in any sport, has ever dominated the competition as utterly and completely as Karelin did.

I'm well aware, as my moniker would suggest.

But shhh, defense can't make you the GOAT.

 

[Lips]

calling nadal just a defensive player is silly...yes, tennis is different then it was 15 years ago, much slower and therefore you don't see the attacking players like samparas, becker, rafter, laver, mac...serving and attacking and finishing with a volley but cmon...do you see how he dictates points, constructing them with his monster forehand and then finishing with a winner or ball that an opponent barely reaches? its all about point construction, dictating, and finishing the point...

 

[Lips]

that is the new offense