Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by formula16, May 1, 2010.
I think this kid would be considered a sandbagger in a typical USTA 4.0 league.
I would agree that he probably wouldn't be hitting winners against the adult league but he would definitely beat them with accuracy. He's not strong enough to blast winners against the harder hitting opponents but if he had ever regular hit with them, then he should be on par with them or win by accuracy. I know some younger opponents that regularly get tough match scores against easy and hard opponents but always win (until a certain level). They get the ball deep enough against the harder opponents but can't attack against easy opponents and usually they can handle fast serves if they are constantly exposed to them.
Yeah, because a tournament where Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Andy Murray/Any other top 10 player has played is the same as Tokyo
it's the internet..everything sounds more confrontational lol.
and i don't think all 3.5s can beat him, probably hardly any, only certain types that can think things through and are physically advantageous like my friend. most people have a darn hard time returning a ball above their heads. this kid to return serve would have to stand quite far back or else the ball will be 1-2ft above his head, either option means a weak reply which a serve and volleyer can take advantage. at 6'4'' it's going to be hard to get a ball by him if you're standing really far back, and lobs have to be really high and accurate to get above the vertical reach.
but for the majority of players and especially all the people that are baseline bashers that are too afraid or not skilled enough at net, well they're pretty much doomed. if you have this type of game without a good serve 3.5s are destroyed while 4.0s can be somewhat competitive.
i have seen some 12 yo hit the crap out of the ball, but they were faster and taller. this 9 yo can no doubt wipe the floor with 3.0s, most 3.5s, and a good percentage of 4.0s imo. at age 12-14 he'll probably be dominating 90% of the tennis population because he is being groomed to go pro.
all this can probably be solved if there was a video of him playing a match with a 4.0. but i think most people want their kid to be viewed by the public in a godsend way so if he doesn't do well the videos will only be kept for analysis purposes.
I think that anyone that can easily maneuver the ball and be consistent with it can beat him. So I think that 4.0+ people are good competition for him.
Qatar should be a major tournament too since Federer, Nadal, and Davydenko went to it this year right? No to mention Murray, Nadal, Roddick, and Federer last year
Tournaments are rated on history, prestige, and points. Then maybe judged on what players attend
yea...umm those descriptions are absolute garbage. the only way to figure out a person's rating is to see who they can beat/compete with. people read those descriptions and think they're at least a 3.5 or 4.0 when they're really just 3.0s competitive wise. it's all about consistency and strategy not how much power you have in the beginning levels,
What is wrong with you guys? This kid is amazing...I'm going out on a limb and saying 4.5+. Based on the vid of course, which mite be deceptive because it looks like a highlight reel.
Sorry, but I can't believe that this kid is 9...
I think a 4.0 could beat this guy...I and a couple other ppl Ik have played with Melanie Oudin's sister before and she can hit with us but in competitive matches, the physical difference is just too great. The kids a good player but he's only 8. He'll be better when he gets bigger.
Alright. I've had it.
If you think anyone under 4.5 could beat this kid, you're wrong. Plain and simple. Accept it.
Everyone that is arguing the kid would win provides real tangible arguments.
All arguments against are essentially: "OH C'MON, HE'S 9!!!"
You guys can say all you want, but you are not and haven't been 4.5 or 4.0 players....yet.
Once you achieve that moderate goal, you'll find you have played plenty of child prodigies, have the ways and the means to defeat LITTLE KIDS, and you won't think he's so great.
Can you imagine Kiteboard or Yaz, or Jolly fearing this little kid? NO CHANCE. They'd place the ball just out of reach, drop angle and shot, lob this shorty, and then hit a normal rally groundie for a winner when the kid realizes he's been TOYED with, not played against.
How can you, as 3.5's say he can beat a 4.0 or 4.5?
I've already mentioned some juniors I played who THE FOLLOWING year, were easy 5.5 MENS level. And I played them even....them being my regular practice partners.
This little kid doesn't hit hard enough to ever bother a top level 3.5.
Uhmmm, you sure you know what you are talking about as far as level's go??
courier is going easy on him but its easy to see the kid can crush that ball.
ok the kid is not 4.5 but hes going to be if this keeps up
i'm pretty sure i gave more physical reasons....
and remember your own words
"Just for the record, I'm not trying to make this a heated argument. Some of my posts sound a little confrontational, but I'm just trying to make my points. All in good fun!"
again. if anybody has videos of him handedly beating a solid 4.0 player with the playstyle and physical attributes of my friend i will gladly eat my words and admit i am wrong. just don't post some baseliner because that's the direct opposite of what i said could beat this kid.
what kind of 3.5s do you live near!?!? :shock:
are you living with abominable snowmens or something? maybe big foot?
I know, I know, all in good fun. It's just frustrating how blatantly obvious it is that most of the people saying a 4.0 could beat him, are in fact a 4.0 players thinking "yeah, I could beat this little twerp!"
I don't think you're one of these people, but A LOT of them are
Haha it'd be a pretty tough/specific assignment for me to come up with a video of him beating a 4.0 serve and volleyer.
Qatar is a 250. Dubai is 500, which is a tier under Masters and two tiers under Grand Slams. I would consider that a pretty major tournament.
this is true, they'd have to be 40 or 50 by now with a degrading game lol.
people could actually think that just because 3.5 or 4.0 are above their own levels that they must be expotentially better than themselves lol, but i don't think this is the case for many lol.
This kid is an excellent tennis player, irrespective of his age. Very natural, fluid movement, keen court sense, excellent shot selection, very controlled and technically sound stroke technique, good depth, good touch, great use of spins, angles, heights, etc. The power will come but I suspect he can get some pace on the ball. I also suspect he can handle pace as well if he is playing 14 year-olds.
As for an NTRP this is always tricky basing it on a video. I've known some top 14 year olds in my region that handle some of the better 4.0 players, winning with their movement, shot selection and consistency. This kid is better than them. I think this kid could likely hang with the majority of 4.5 players around here no problem, so I'd go with 4.5+ based on the video.
Regardless, he's extremely impressive for a 9-year old. I'd really like to see him play on the dirt to see if he moves as well there.
To Draks, assuming you really are a 4.5-5.0.
Have you ever lost to anyone younger than 14? Don't think so.
No matter how great a 9 year old strokes are, you can take them out of their game by playing with their heads. They are little kids!
I've already mentioned some juniors I used to practice with. Those were 17 year olds who WON pro tourneys, or made top level college the following year.
Little kids cannot compete with full grown adults unless the adult ALLOWS it and pampers the kid.
Heck, you can take this kid out of his game by just knocking him down on changovers.... :twisted::twisted: His mom would come running, cause a big scene, and that might qualify as coaching during the match....:twisted:
Lee, I'm just pointing out that you equated a certain poster as a 4.5, when in fact, he is no higher than a 4.0 (max), and has struggled to beat 3.5's, and I'm nearly certain the kid in this vid will beat him easily.
OK, you got me.
But this kid would have no chance against you, or me. We'd physcologically take him out of his game. He's a kid. And hits soft, consistent loopy balls.
Stop spouting nonsense.
Are you even following the argument in this thread?
No one is claming that this kid will beat everyone on this board.
We are just saying that he will beat most of us and the claims of him being a 2.5 are ridiculous.
And ofcourse, he doesn't stand a chance against 17 year olds who have won pro tournies. How genius of you to figure that out.
Now, PLZ bring forward some arguments as to how a 4.0 will beat this kid.
I think this kid could beat 4.0's, I just think a lot of you are overrating him, comparing him to Agassi saying he's excellent in everything when in fact it's a highlight reel which shows 8 points spread over like 4 matches. Let me see the other hundreds of points and it would make this so much easier.
I never said this kid wasn't good.
Draks is 4.5. Well within the level SOME responders say this kid can compete with. I'm 4.0, take it personally if you say ANY 9 year old can beat me. Including this kid.
I never compared this kid to TonLars, LawMan, ClintT.
Top 3.5 level is better than most anyone who doesn't carry a little black book. As such, will soon be real 4.5, and this kid would just get taken and *****.
This kid would beat lots of 3.5's, for sure, but not the experienced top level 3.5's, who use physcology as much as strokes to maintain their ratings.
Try winning a 3.5 tourney, and you'll see.
I have to say Lee, a great deal of your posts come off sounding arrogant and boastful. I really don't understand why you feel the need to do this as the natural reaction you solicit from nearly everyone is to cause them to question your credibility. I doubt that is your primary intent in posting.
There often is some useful information in your posts which unfortunately tends to get obscured by all that bluster. If instead you worded your responses more thoughtfully and avoided the condescending tone, you probably wouldn't have so many negative reactions to your posts.
If I were arrogant and boastful, I would lie and tell you I was BETTER than PeanutLouie or RollieZalameda. Instead, I only said they were my monthly, or in Rollie's case, twice a week, practice partners.
Both above were 10 years younger than I was, in '77. Yet they were friends and regular practice partners, because they both needed strong serving lefties to practice against.
There is basically one reason why they play dubai: $$$
Do any of the locals play tennis in the UAE? There's probably a large expat population from the US and Europe supporting the oil & gas industry. Some of those folks might play.
I think he would be extremely competitive in 4.0s. That being said, I believe that a smart 4.0 player could beat him. I personally believe that I could moonball to his backhand all day and win out in the consistency contest and through fitness. Don't quote me on that since all I have is a video to judge him. At his current page (i never even touched a racket at age 9), i think he's going to be a division 1 level player at 14 or 15.
Oh for sure this kid, if he doesn't get bored or injured, is the stuff of 5.5 in a few years.
But adults can intimidate little kids, even 3.5 adults. I know some 3.5 mens who hit forehands as hard as most pros, hit first serves only to see it flatten against the back fence, are 6'4" tall and 240 lbs of muscle, and would scare this kid to death during changeovers!
Tennis is not all strokes. Even at good 4.5 levels, gamesmanship, intimidation, timely bad calls, foul acting behavior, all are just as important as consistency, depth, and placement.
What would you say about a kid whose 11 years old and top 30 nationally?
Oh boy, who else, besides me, can hardly wait for THE ultimate authority on NTRP ratings to weigh in here?
Lol. Yea right. Most of my forehands would kick up well out of his reach...he would be one unhappy little boy at the end of the day!
I had played with a very good kid, 14 yrs, before but that was like over a year ago when I was so far off my current -- I updated my form almost every week for better. Let me tell you, this kid had all the correct form strokes and footwork, used a light babolat, aeropro strike or something. Some adults who knew him told me he had gone to school training.
It was very enjoyable playing against him cuz the ball kept coming back. However, the speed and power were missing and there was only so much running a kid can do. In the end, it added up and he made more UEs and was really tired out and lost. 2 sets but scores were kinda neck to neck.
I'd go with a 3.5, but only because he is so limited by size and strength. If he had these same strokes and footwork and a few years and some puberty, he'd be a solid 4.5. But I used to hit with kids this age that played on a national level in the late 90s and the size of their gait alone made it very difficult for them to cover the court playing against a decent adult.
I think it really unfair to say this kid cannot take out good 3.5s. And while we are at it, why are some here trying to point out the difference between experienced 3.5s and normal 3.5s. To me this reads sand bagging 3.5s vs honest 3.5s.
Just by virtue of him being able to rally in front of a crowd and hit well with a legend says something of his experience and confidence.
This kid would kill 3.5s. He moves well and hits the ball really well at chest level and above, which is difficult and advanced.
If and adult male has this kids skill sets he would be way above a 3.5.
Kids got amazing talent and technique. Would love to see him play some real match points (and not just a highlight reel - which is what the video really is).
However, if he played against a 3.5-4.0+ adult male with a good serve, I think he'd be overpowered.
Completely agree. He does move exceedingly well, hits smart shots with good placement, depth and spin (even if he does lack pace). My feeling is the primary reason why this kid would easily handle 3.5 level players is his consistency. I've never seen any 3.5 player this consistently. In fact, this kid is more consistent than most 4.0 players I've ever seen.
I agree with you. However, if it's the rare 3.5-4.0 player with a great serve... the kid would probably be toast.
Any true 4.5 or higher adult male would take the kid out in straight sets.
Be really interesting to see his progress 10 years from now if he's still playing.
There is a kid at the club where I live (about 9-10 years old) who beats 3.5 players. Not out of the ordinary for him. However, when he comes up against 4.0 or higher, especially with a decent serve, he has trouble. Still, he competes with them, and the kid in this video is way better than the kid at my club.
I remember reading that Baghdatis was playing Davis Cup for Cyprus when he was 12, so I could image that a strong 12 year old male could be a 6.0 player.
Hey Bud - I'm likely to agree with you, provided we agree on the definition of a "true 4.5 or higher adult male". I've been playing several 4.5 level players and have a pretty good idea of what this level has to offer. My sense is the consistency differences between the top and the bottom of the 4.5 level are, well, enormous.
So the top 4.5 players in my area would more than likely give this kid a hard time because they would be able to match his consistency, yet be able to bring the added dimension of power at the right times, giving them the clear edge. The low to mid-level 4.5 level players might be able to overpower the kid, but my experience tells me they would make just as many unforced errors as they would successful shots, effectively neutralizing this power advantage. In this case, the edge goes to the more consistent player, which may very well be the kid. Hard to say definitely without playing him.
^^ Good point........
At my courts there is a family of kids. Older brother, middle brother and daughter. The girl is about 12. They homeschool and play tennis. They travel all over to tourneys. The oldest boy is about 17, the middle is about 15.
I am not sure 3.5 would have much chance against this girl. I have watched her play with her brothers and the 17's left handed serve. The boy can kill it! She can return most of it if she can get to it. She has good volleys and a good overheard and a killer forehand. Her technique is impressive. I know I don't want any part of playing with her. Any high ball is killed by her. I know there is nothing I can throw at her she cannot handle.
You guys are a laugh and need to give your ego's a rest. I was coaching at John Newcombe Tennis Ranch while the Harrison brothers were still there. Christian was around 9 or 10 years old at the time. A 3.5/4.0 would have a tough time beating him, I'd put my money on the 10 year old. Its funny how same say "I've seen kids like this at my club all the time" No you don't, you see good 9 or 10 year olds, but these guys are way ahead. Anyways, I'm sure people are proud of their NTRP ratings and all but I keep saying it, competitive juniors couldn't give a rats *** what theirs is. All they care about are rankings and match wins, not how well they're doing on the NTRP ladder.
Hey TB- I went to Newks a few years back with my son and saw Christian play along with some of the other promising juniors there as well. These kids would destroy every 3.5 player in my area and would also straight-set the vast majority of 4.0 level players in my region.
Watching a video and actually watching these kids play is entirely different. The video does NOT give you a great sense of spin, pace, placement, difficulty of shot, etc. Furthermore, it sure as hell does NOT give you a good indication as to how you would fare in a match against them. I've seen many juniors over the years easily dismantle respectably ranked club players. My son's HS team has a 17-year old junior that can destroy most club pros in my area, and half the varsity team at one of the local Ivy D1 schools.
As usual, you guys who say this kid can compete with 4.5 don't get it.
At any level above 4.0, it's not just strokes and movement, skill and technique.
All sorts of HEAD GAMES come up, whether it's bullying the kid at changeovers, annoying his parents, calling bad calls to see the reaction, hitting the kid deliberately after dropshotting him, drop and lobbing the short tiny tyke repeatedly, topspin lobbing then drop volley angling the kid, there are lots of strategies to take younger, less match experienced players out of their game.
Pure tennis, just the hitting, setup, and technique, of course the kid can compete at 4.0 levels. NO DOUBT.
But tennis is more than the above sentence!
Ahh see thats too bad because apparently according to TW if you lived in Southern California, or Florida or any of the other supposed hot spots this would NEVER happen...its impossible because those 4.0 players can compete with pros!! /sarcasm
actually, on this board you get this attitude more from California and Atlanta. Especially Cali.
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