What rating do you think this player is?
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tennis tom
Legend
Ya, not much besides hard-courts in kali, it's the way the tennis culture developed out west calif. cement. rts lub owners and members are too cheap to build clay or grass--with hard all you have to do is wash them once every few weeks, or years. All the people who could be maintaining the grass courts are growing pot--more lucartive. Florida is great with all the har-tru clubs. There's Har-Tru at Irvine R.C., some in the Desert at Mission Hills, but you need to be a member, and some at Shadow Mountin. A couple of red-clay at Pismo called Shorecliff, on a cliff off of PCH with a great view of the Pacific--you can pretend you're in Monte Carlo without the casino, just clams.
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Wonder what happened in the SC/MS match today? MS defaulted both singles points. Wonder if they were just resting their singles players?
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
I didn't really even see that. It felt like balls were going everywhere, with little control over the intended destination from the far side of the court. Footwork seemed non-existent, hence the reaching for some shots due to being out of position at contact, which would explain random shot direction. I didn't guess 4.0 player on the far side, so I guess I'm wrong.
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jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe they are much better at doubles than they are at singles (or vice versa)
Or they play exclusively doubles with a strong partner
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
tennis tom
Legend
Johnny Mac and anybody
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
Yeah they were 3-0 going into their final Flight match and had enough court wins that they could not be caught by second place. So that's how I took it, that they were resting singles for the finals today.
Nationals question:According to the 2017 Regulations. To advance to Nationals, must play 3 matches on same team. Can someone clarify if a player played 3+ matches in local league but didn't play any matches in Districts or Sectionals will still be eligible for nationals? Or are you required to play at least one District or Sectional match?
Three matches in the local league would suffice. That's how you get guys that play on one team at sectionals but then on a different team at nationals.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
Not heading there but talked to friends yesterday who are heading there this weekend. Will be curious to see how that Flight plays out.
g4driver
Legend
Well where I am I don't see any ex-college players playing 4.0. Kids out of high school yes but college players not unless they are the same vintage as LeeD.
So let me get this straight, these Uber elite ex college players are playing 4.0 tennis in the Southern region and they never go to/win at nationals and get bumped up?
After the local league/districts they play to lose to maintain their 4.0 rating?
Any videos of these specimens?
I believe you, I have played some some 4.0 who blasted everyone off the court but they were usually bumped up the next season.
No video from rained out Southern Sectionals, but I do offer a match result for you to ponder.
#2 singles 4.5 40+ SC vs AL yesterday 7/28/17
These two players went on the court second, so why would the 2 singles player tank given his team had 3 more courts to play? ??? AL player is now a 4.5 who appears to have been a 5.0 at some point in 2016 or 2017 before he registered for his AL team.
So the 4.0C beats the recent 5.0 (now a 4.5C) 2&3.
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Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
No video from rained out Southern Sectionals, but I do offer a match result for you to ponder.
#2 singles 4.5 40+ SC vs AL yesterday 7/28/17
These two players went on the court second, so why would the 2 singles player tank given his team had 3 more courts to play? ??? AL player is now a 4.5 who appears to have been a 5.0 at some point in 2016 or 2017 before he registered for his AL team.
So the 4.0C beats the recent 5.0 (now a 4.5C) 2&3.
Can you clarify? It's not clear what you mean from your post.
g4driver
Legend
Look up the Alabama 4.5C player who had a 5.0 rating on 12/31/2016
Specifically, look at his opponent in the SC vs AL # 2 singles match on 7/28/16.
Papa Mango asked for video of the SC 4.0C player. I offered Southern Sectional 4.5 40+ match results since I don't have video. The guy went 1-3 in 4.5 Sectionals this weekend, but every match he lost was either a 10 point TB loss or the 5-7, 5-7 loss. And he won 2&3 over a 12/31/17 5.0C player who somehow got his rating back down to 4.5.
He went 1-3 but won one more game than he lost in those four matches vs 4.5C players. And he is a 4.0C
OrangePower
Legend
I think you misunderstood what @Papa Mango was getting at. At least what I think he was getting at
He was looking for representative 4.0 play from your section, so that we could compare typical SC 4.0 play with typical 4.0 Norcal play.
The 4.0 you gave as example doesn't seem typical...
g4driver
Legend
I think you misunderstood what @Papa Mango was getting at. At least what I think he was getting at
He was looking for representative 4.0 play from your section, so that we could compare typical SC 4.0 play with typical 4.0 Norcal play.
The 4.0 you gave as example doesn't seem typical...
I took it as Papa Mango asking specifically about former college players playing as 4.0C players.
Reread his question.
OrangePower
Legend
Ah ok, maybe that's what he meant - we will wait for him to chime in!
Even then though one such case does not necessarily mean that it's more commonplace than just one or two unicorns. There's probably an ex college player managing his 4.0C rating in Norcal also, but that's not going to be the yardstick we use to evaluate other people's level.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Well, if he is playing 4.5 sectionals, he won't be a 4.0 for long. So problem solved.
schmke
Legend
This is due to the fiasco that is allowing ESL players to play sectionals at their ESL level. The Alabama player did not get back down to 4.5, he was a 4.5 at 2015 year-end and so was able to register as a 4.5 on the ESL team in the Fall of 2016. He subsequently became a 5.0 at 2016 year-end but gets to continue to play as a 4.5 on his ESL team. Now, despite a good record, because he is playing as a 4.5 his 2017 year-end rating may come back down to 4.5.
g4driver
Legend
I just wasn't able to provide video. He certainly isn't the norm and he actually self-rated last year as a 4.0, answering the questions honestly and the USTA system gave him the "4.0S". He chose to not accept the 4.0S and instead of hitting "Enter" or "Accept" he started the self-rate questions again. The second time he got 4.0S he selected "Enter" or "Proceed" and was assigned as a 4.0S.
This spring a grievance was filed against him by one of his less than personable co-workers (Yep...co-worker filed a grievance against him submitting his entire college history for evidence.) The grievance was dismissed, since he followed the rules, answer all the questioned honestly, and he in fact had a C rating. Some players don't seem to understand you can play college tennis and still self-rated as a 4.0C depending on where you played and how you did. He played but didn't cross into the 4.5 threshold during the USTA self-rate process last spring.
He choose not to play 7.0 Mixed and 7.5 Combo as he is clearly a very good 4.5 player. He isn't a low level 4.5 as evidenced by his performance against the guy Schmke addressed.
So my question to Schmke is this? Do you think the ESL 4.5 (bumped to 5.0) tanked? That is the hard part for me to figure out. The 4.0C beat the 5.0C 6-2,6-3, but they were the second two players from their teams on the court. I guess none of us will never know. But this the exact type match that IMO should be ignored by the USTA algorithm with anti-tanking code. a USTA 4.0C should not beat a USTA 5.0C, no matter how good the 4.0C is.
g4driver
Legend
Well for sure the 4.0C gets bumped to 4.5C no question. But what of the 5.0C ? ESLs? And the ability to play as a 4.5C during Sectionals.
Schmke, did the ESL loophole allowing this 5.0C to play 4.5C get shutdown?
schmke
Legend
Nope, it did not to my knowledge. And from comments I've heard from others, Southern thinks it is perfectly fine because they consider winning Southern Sectionals a bigger deal than Nationals, so who cares about players being ineligible for Nationals, they'd rather have complete teams from the regular season competing for Sectionals.
OrangePower
Legend
I've seen a very similar scenario at 4.5: Guy self-rated 4.5S last year, completely legit. He answered all the questions honestly and ended up having a good but not great year at 4.5, resulting in a 4.5C end of year. Thing is, it was his first year playing again after a decade plus layoff. This year the rust is gone, and he is killing it at 4.5, and is also playing and has a winning record at 5.0. Not a shred of doubt he will be bumped to 5.0C come year end, but in the meanwhile his 4.5 opponents are wondering how this steamroller is a 4.5C.
So it happens that you have a legit computer rated player who is good even for the next level, but it's just very rare, and usually it's a player in their 2nd year of USTA.
I think you'd need to look at their dynamic rating to determine if there are any shenanigans. For example if the 4.0C actually has a 4.3 dynamic rating (i.e. well into the 4.5 range), and the 5.0C is really a 4.35 dynamic (slipped back into 4.5 range), then the question is whether it's possible for a 4.3 to legitimately beat a 4.35 with a score of 2&3. And I think it's within the range of normal variation.
g4driver
Legend
This is why I have been writing that the USTA isn't a National Program. SC doesn't use ESR or ESLs, so how legit is a system where multiple 5.0 guys play teams with only one legal 5.0
The folks at USTA Southern think highly of themselves even though their tennis players have little respect for the organization known as SOUTHERN USTA who make some pathetic decisions.
g4driver
Legend
[QUOTE="OrangePower, post: 11463455, member: 23943"
I think you'd need to look at their dynamic rating to determine if there are any shenanigans. For example if the 4.0C actually has a 4.3 dynamic rating (i.e. well into the 4.5 range), and the 5.0C is really a 4.35 dynamic (slipped back into 4.5 range), then the question is whether it's possible for a 4.3 to legitimately beat a 4.35 with a score of 2&3. And I think it's within the range of normal variation.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I didn't make my point very clearly. It was more along the lines of why is a 5.0C playing in a match vs a 4.0C at 2 singles in 4.5 40+ ?
Yes a 5.0C can play 1 Singles or 1 Doubles at 4.5 40+ and they could face a 4.0C playing up.
A) But should you see a 5.0C at 2 Singles in 4.5 40+ ?
B) Can this happen anywhere else other than the wacky Southern Section ?
C) And finally can a ESL 4.5 player continue to Nationals with a 5.0C Rating and play as a 4.5C at Nationals?
I am pretty sure the answers are:
A) No
B) ???
C) No
I think you'd need to look at their dynamic rating to determine if there are any shenanigans. For example if the 4.0C actually has a 4.3 dynamic rating (i.e. well into the 4.5 range), and the 5.0C is really a 4.35 dynamic (slipped back into 4.5 range), then the question is whether it's possible for a 4.3 to legitimately beat a 4.35 with a score of 2&3. And I think it's within the range of normal variation.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I didn't make my point very clearly. It was more along the lines of why is a 5.0C playing in a match vs a 4.0C at 2 singles in 4.5 40+ ?
Yes a 5.0C can play 1 Singles or 1 Doubles at 4.5 40+ and they could face a 4.0C playing up.
A) But should you see a 5.0C at 2 Singles in 4.5 40+ ?
B) Can this happen anywhere else other than the wacky Southern Section ?
C) And finally can a ESL 4.5 player continue to Nationals with a 5.0C Rating and play as a 4.5C at Nationals?
I am pretty sure the answers are:
A) No
B) ???
C) No
What a sad perspective to have in life. But this is hard cheaters justify it to themselves.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
First of all, there's no evidence that @ChaelAZ planned it this way. That's just the way things developed.
Second, he's stating fact [that he's a computer-rated 3.5] while you're stating an opinion.
So what should he do? Appeal up to 5.0? 4.5? Just because he can hit with 4.0 & 5.0 doesn't mean he will do well in matches.
If he really has improved that much, his match results will bear that out and he'll get bumped, maybe double bumped. Is that not efficient enough for you?
tennis tom
Legend
You'll could use all these brain cells for something more productive and lucrative--like clerking for a Supreme Court Justice. If you play in the Senior's, the only number you need to know is your birth-date.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I have been rated 3.5c, I decided to play 3.5. The point was actually that hitting with higher players doesn't matter and most everyone can look good hitting. What matters, and exactly what gives you a rating is your match play in tournaments and leagues. Until the USTA bumps me there isn't anything I can do.
But cheers. Sounds like there is some emotional/personal issue there so I'll just let ya work on that yourself. Hope you can work through whatever issues you have.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Years back when ratings were more important to me, I appealed and it was rejected. I played 4.0, did a bit better than 50/50 in tight matches or me getting beat pretty good. Played a few 4.5 matches and I get my butt handed to me more often than not and have been lucky to take a few matches on some good player's bad days. Going back I figure exactly as you mention. If I hit too well I'll get bumped and it'll be because of match play. Excited to see how it goes and take the new skills for a spin.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
Spoke with friends who played against the SC Team. the 4.0 was quite light on the rating.
No that isn't acceptable. Why should he be allowed to ruin the fun for the players that are legitimately rated?
He should do the right thing and play at his actual level.
lol at the guy who wants to cheat his rating to beat up on lower skilled players arguing another person has emotional issues...
Talk about the epitome of transference.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
define fun.
Tennis is generally fun when you're playing someone in the same level as you.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
You missed the part where @ChaelAZ stated his rating IS legit: 3.5C. High-rated 3.5s probably destroy low-rated 3.5s: are the high 3.5s "ruining the fun" for the low-rated 3.5s? Maybe you look at it that way. Not sure how in your world that can be avoided unless the rating category gets tightened up so there's only a small point difference from lowest to highest in a division. Would make for a scheduling nightmare.
I'm happy to run into players better than me in the 4.5 bracket, even though I'm in the upper part of 4.5. I use it as a way to expose my weaknesses. My fun is not ruined since a lot of my fun is not based on winning.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Went to a team practice and was with another guy who has been bumped up and down between 3.5 and 4.0 like most on the team. He hasn't played any tennis in 7 months. We played two mid level 3.5 players. We won 6/1 and had to stop the second at 5/3. So not blowing anyone out. Then again, we have a fw players just up from 3.0 to 3.5 I am sure we would go 1 and 1 with. And that is league tennis with any level having high rated and low rated players.
What will matter is if and when I play singles. Then I'll know better where I am with my game.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
You realize that you can't win with @Startzel logic: if you lose matches, he'll say you're sandbagging. If you win, he'll say that's proof that you were sandbagging, even if you're not anymore because you got bumped. It's like the witch trials where they threw someone into a lake: if they float, they're a witch and then burned at the stake. If they drown, they weren't a witch but they're dead anyway ["sorry about that!"].
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Meh. It was nice to be out. Got a lot of mental edge to get back too and found myself just hitting and keeping things going instead of ending points, like I do in practices. Need to work on that mindset.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Yup: I got worked in my last tournament by a guy who is likely to get bumped to 5.0 and I still enjoyed the experience. I wish I "kept things going" more than I did!
Jonboy
Rookie
Classic 4.0 in acension. Solid FW, slice'ish' BH, little volleying. Could tell more if his opponent was a little better.
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He had a 3.5C years ago. Even if it's within the three year window it is just a reflection of where he was not where he is now. I just don't understand sandbagging and why anyone would want to do it.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
You are 100% correct.
You don't understand sandbagging.
The last year I played 4.0 my partner and I lost to two players who had just been bumped down from 4.5. We got walked 2 and 1. Does that mean we aren't really 4.0's, or those players are not 4.0's. Or is it
eek that there is a large breadth of players from new 4.0's to those on the edge of top 4.0's waiting to get bumped to 4.5....hmmmm....Just to ruffle ya more, my last season in 3.5 I went 9/0 win/loss. many of those were competitive matches at #1 singles or #1 dubs. USTA still didn't see fit to bump me up based on their NTRP system. I even appealed, which was rejected.
So I am/was a top 3.5 and decent 3.5 playing up in 4.0. Fact I can hit with higher players is moot. I don't throw matches, never played college or even high school tennis and picked it up after 40. Was on a 3.5 team as a 3.0 self-rated and bumped quickly (athletic ability). Took a few years for our core 3.5 guys to even get to sectionals with some seriously stiff competition in AZ and the Southwest.
I am a 3.5 currently and we'll see where it goes with a few years off leagues under my belt. But spin it however works for you.
Good luck in leagues, sir.
OrangePower
Legend
I kinda agree with you, but only if he knows for sure that he is now 4.0 level or better, but prefers to play at 3.5 anyway just because that's what an out of date rating allows.
Problem is that it's hard to know for sure that you've exceeded a certain level without playing and winning matches at that level. You might suspect you're better based on hitting sessions etc, but many just don't perform as well under match conditions.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. I would gladly play in 4.0, but coming back after injuries and only a handful of practice matches to base things on...why not play my rating. Hell, if everyone played their assumed rating there would be some ugly tennis out there. Even worse, if people played their TT online rating leagues there would be some ticked off 4.5 and 5.0 players having to play 3.5's with a self-proclaimed 2-6 step up game.
OrangePower
Legend
Yup, you sometimes never know until some matches are played.
I've played league matches against guys that based on watching them warm up with teammates before the match I thought were going to kill me... and then in the match once I started moving them around a bit their games imploded and I won easily.
And of course I've lost to guys who while warming up I thought would be pushovers!
tennis tom
Legend
9-0 in his last 3.5 season making it to sectionals. He's been playing with 4.0/4.5s during his time off. I feel pretty comfortable standing on this limb.
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