what 's the reason federer 's wimbledon level was so dropped after 2009 wimbledon ? ( serious post )

beard said:
On topic, I think it's opposite to what OP says...

Federer is big overachiever at Wimbledon...

He should lost 07 to Nadal...
He should lost 09 to RodDick...
He should lost 12 to fckn Benettau...

About 5 other Wimbledon's, he should thanks to weakest era ever he got... Yeah, he definitely overachived...
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Meanwhile Djokovic should’ve lost to Federer in 2019, Nadal in 2018 and would’ve lost to Fed in 2011 had Tsgona not gave him an assist. So definitely overachieved.
 
skypadq said:
i really belive right after federer won 09 wimbledon
he could win 10 wimbledon
but he didn't
he reached 7 consecutive final at 03 ~ 09 wimbledon and he won 6 of them

then , federer lost like tomas beydych at 2010 wimbledon and tsonga at 2011 wimbledon
this is two total wasted loss for federer
and i don 't understand this two loss
i understand he lost 2013 wimbledon 2R ( he had the worst year and he had injury )
i understand he lost raonic at 2016 wimbledon sf ( he had injury also )
but these two loss i can 't understand

these two lost at 2010 wimbledon final agianst nadal and 2011 wimbledon SF aginast djokovic

please don 't say joke
i want to know reason
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The 2011 Wimbledon loss is a really strange one for me. Federer was in fantastic form that year. His whole 2011 doesn't get talked about much on here because I think a lot his (younger?) fans just look at his stats on Wikipedia and think that because he didn't win any majors in 2011 he was no good. But Federer's level that year was extremely high for sure.

In the loss to Tsonga, I think part of the turnaround in that match owed to Tsonga "letting go" thinking the match was gone, and just goating because he was free from a lot of the pressure.

But I think Federer partly "allowed" the momentum shift to happen. Maybe a mixture of complacency, and also enjoying the moment, and he just took his foot off the pedal slightly.

It's quite interesting to think about the Fedovic SF that could have happened if Federer had made the date.
 
KINGROGER said:
Meanwhile Djokovic should’ve lost to Federer in 2019, Nadal in 2018 and would’ve lost to Fed in 2011 had Tsgona not gave him an assist. So definitely overachieved.
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Disagree...

In 19 Novak did his common thing to Federer...40:15... easy peazy...as taking chocolate of a little boy...

In 18 Novak was just better, came from death that lasted two years, still won...

In 11 I agree, as Federer is goat...of fantasy matches...
 
BrooklynNY said:
Federer definitely pioneered the game. No doubt - but the game caught up to him. The only guy who had a forehand comparable was Nadal and Fernando Gonzalez, and that's all he had.

Del Potro forehand is another level, now you have huge hitters like Thiem and even Kyrgios hits and enormous ball. Everyone hits as big as Federer now. He didn't get worse, others caught up.

What's so difficult to understand about people have caught up to him? If he didn't improve he would have became Hewitt, who was stagnant and if you're not getting better, you're getting worse.
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Wow....
 
KINGROGER said:
Fed lucky to win in 2007, 2019 business as usual vs 37.9 year old player. LOL.
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Not really, he started 40:15 thing a decade ago... Just brought it to next level at Federer's best slam, in final, on Federer's serve... Novak like challenges, so he will probably do 40:0 next time, 40:15 became usual and quite boring... ;)
 
beard said:
H2h matters?
Can Federer fans finally decide if it matters or not...
Click to expand...

Right back at you, Nadsy boy.

Hail H2H as the most important stat but ignore it when it goes against their agenda. Can Nadal fans make up their mind?
 
KINGROGER said:
Well most Fedal matches were played at Wimbledon on an even footing.

Federer Djokovic matches there all happened post 30.
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Even footing?
At Wimbledon it was 25-27 yo grass goat Vs 20-22 yo Claydal...

Federer fans and their famous objectivity... :rolleyes:
 
zagor said:
Right back at you, Nadsy boy.

Hail H2H as the most important stat but ignore it when it goes against their agenda. Can Nadal fans make up their mind?
Click to expand...
I am Novak's fan ;)
And you mentioned h2h as argument, so I ask you again, does h2h matters or not?
 
NatF said:
The drop already happened in 2007 when his return plummeted.

His absolute best level on grass was 2003-2006, then in 2007-2009 he was still very good but slipping a bit year on year.

In 2010 he had niggling injuries and in 2011 Tsonga just got really hot on serve - 2012 was his last hurrah in terms of prime level and he played great in the last three rounds. Since then he's been good enough against the field but lacked the athleticism to deal with Djokovic.
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He lacked his FH against Novak, it's what got him on big points when Novak becomes a wall and Fed didn't have a killer shot to hit through him. Not sure how much that is due to athleticism or not.

I often feel Fed's drop in level after 2012 is due to his FH, not his movement which has still been exceptional. He rediscovered it in 2017 which was the main reason for his success, far more so than often mentioned "Neo BH".
 
zagor said:
He lacked his FH against Novak, it's what got him on big points when Novak becomes a wall and Fed didn't have a killer shot to hit through him. Not sure how much that is due to athleticism or not.

I often feel Fed's drop in level after 2012 is due to his FH, not his movement which has still been exceptional. He rediscovered it in 2017 which was the main reason for his success, far more so than often mentioned "Neo BH".
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Athleticism is a big part of the missing forehand, you only need to look at his movement to his right. Djokovic could stretch Federer by playing with angle to that side in a way you couldn't in Fed's best days. I already spoke about the big forehand improvements in 2017 with Reece as well.
 
NatF said:
Athleticism is a big part of the missing forehand, you only need to look at his movement to his right. Djokovic could stretch Federer by playing with angle to that side in a way you couldn't in Fed's best days. I already spoke about the big forehand improvements in 2017 with Reece as well.
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Right, but I'm not talking about running FH. I feel Fed dialed back on his FH in the rallies, not when he's a split second late to the ball.

Agassi's movement was largely gone in 2004/2005 for example but his FH was still amazing. To me Fed after 2012 is like Roddick like after 2003/2004, he lost his killer shot and tried to make up for it in other areas.

Furthemore, Fed wasn't moving that well in 2017 AO (he even had a thigh/groin issue IIRC), it's his ballstriking that won him the title.
 
zagor said:
Sure you are.



Except I made no stupid blanket statements regarding 2009 Wimbledon either way. You did, so you answer first. Does H2H matter? If it does, what is their H2H at Wimbledon?
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You never asked me if h2h matters in my opinion, if you did I would answer you... Anyway, I think it does and always did, even when Novak was losing h2h...

If I'm not wrong h2h is 3:1 for Djokovic at Wimbledon...
 
beard said:
You never asked me if h2h matters in my opinion, if you did I would answer you... Anyway, I think it does and always did
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Ok then, so what is the H2H between Fedal at Wimbledon?

Since you made a claim that Nadal was 100% certain (not just likely but dead certain) not just to make it through the draw but also beat Fed in 2009 Wimbledon.
 
zagor said:
Ok then, so what is the H2H between Fedal at Wimbledon?

Since you made a claim that Nadal was 100% certain (not just likely but dead certain) not just to make it through the draw but also beat Fed in 2009 Wimbledon.
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I never said that, can you quote me, please?
 
zagor said:
Right, but I'm not talking about running FH. I feel Fed dialed back on his FH in the rallies, not when he's a split second late to the ball.

Agassi's movement was largely gone in 2004/2005 for example but his FH was still amazing. To me Fed after 2012 is like Roddick like after 2003/2004, he lost his killer shot and tried to make it for it in other areas.

Furthemore, Fed wasn't moving that well in 2017 AO (he even had a thigh/groin issue IIRC), it's his ballstriking that won him the title.
Click to expand...

The Fedal and Fedovic match ups are different, against Nadal there's a clear pattern of play that Federer has to adjust to and Nadal's own movement and defence have declined to the point where Federer's better ballstriking gives him the edge together with his serve. Against Djokovic the matches are much more physical IMO because Novak is that much better at redirecting the ball.

A big chunk of Federer's prime forehand was athleticism anyway, the footwork, trunk rotation, racket head speed etc...Obviously the racket head control and hand eye coordination are key as well but the decline in the former attributes is why his forehand aged worse than say Agassi's. Saying his fading athleticism is the culprit doesn't proclude it's impact on his forehand. His inability to dance around his backhand and slap 100 mph forehand winners is an acute symptom of his decline in athleticism. I think Fed trained very hard in his 6 months off at the end of 2016 and he fully mastered the new racket and the bigger sweetspot, it allowed him something of an Indian Summer in terms of his ballstriking when he came back fresh and hungry. Mentally as well he was much more able to swing freely making shots he may have missed in 2015 etc...

And I agree about Fed's post 2012 game, give me a reliable kill shot over a "complete" game anyday.
 
zagor said:
You liked the post. Now are we're gonna continue splitting hairs or are you gonna stop being a chicken and defend your opinion?
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Liking the post doesn't equals agreeing on everything, and every word... It's obvious...

Anyway, I find you good poster and like your thinking, although I rare agree...

About our discussion, only, and only point I tried to make, is that I find it funny when Fed fan use h2h as argument... That's it... All best...
 
beard said:
Liking the post doesn't equals agreeing on everything, and every word... It's obvious...
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The post was quite unambiguous. You either agree with the notion that Nadal's absence being the sole reason Fed won 2009 Wimbledon or you do not.

beard said:
About our discussion, only, and only point I tried to make, is that I find it funny when Fed fan use h2h as argument... That's it... All best...
Click to expand...

I find it funny how Nadal fans yap about H2H all day long but completely ignore it when it doesn't suit their agenda. Carry on.
 
zagor said:
Right, but I'm not talking about running FH. I feel Fed dialed back on his FH in the rallies, not when he's a split second late to the ball.

Agassi's movement was largely gone in 2004/2005 for example but his FH was still amazing. To me Fed after 2012 is like Roddick like after 2003/2004, he lost his killer shot and tried to make up for it in other areas.

Furthemore, Fed wasn't moving that well in 2017 AO (he even had a thigh/groin issue IIRC), it's his ballstriking that won him the title.
Click to expand...

Federer was hugely up and down at 2017 AO with the exception of the Berdych match (s&v Zverev didn't have the game to punish Fed's drop in the second set), but when he was up I thought he moved well for his age indeed. 1st set against Stan, 1st and 5th sets against Nadal featured some agility to help with the ballstriking.
 
NatF said:
I think he was probably a bit quicker in 2015 as well tbh. I just think his nothing to lose mentality and forehand especially were much better in 2017. That was the key shot I felt in his AO 2017 campaign, he had the I/O forehand back. His draw wasn't tough at Wimby in 2017 but whenever he was under threat of losing serve or momentum he seemed to find a great forehand. Best single match out of the two years would be the 2015 SF because his serve was so insane but otherwise I think 2017 was slightly better all things considered.
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I felt the BH was key against Nadal in AO 17 and the serve and clutch more the FH. I agree about most of the rest the 2015 SF was impressive because Murray was in good form that day despite the straight sets loss.
 
NatF said:
The drop already happened in 2007 when his return plummeted.

His absolute best level on grass was 2003-2006, then in 2007-2009 he was still very good but slipping a bit year on year.

In 2010 he had niggling injuries and in 2011 Tsonga just got really hot on serve - 2012 was his last hurrah in terms of prime level and he played great in the last three rounds. Since then he's been good enough against the field but lacked the athleticism to deal with Djokovic.
Click to expand...
Pretty rough lung infection following the AO - He SUCKED for ages after that. IW, Miami and early clay tourneys were particularly awful showings.
 
The emergence of an unstoppable force in Djokovic. He would have won Wimbledon 14, 15, 19 if it wasn't for him.
 
beard said:
Disagree...

In 19 Novak did his common thing to Federer...40:15... easy peazy...as taking chocolate of a little boy...

In 18 Novak was just better, came from death that lasted two years, still won...

In 11 I agree, as Federer is goat...of fantasy matches...
Click to expand...
Then Fed was just better in 2007, 2009, and 2012.
 
He nearly lost to Roddick. In fact Andy choked in the 2nd set big time. Then Fed chokes against Tsonga.
 
Lost half a step there, round about the time he had mono. Then worked hard during the '10 and '11 to keep it up but it was evident and right now he's a whole step behind. Sheer perfection of his service motion ( hiding the placement with shoulder movement ) and precise placement, reading of the game, perfect volleying and shotmaking ability are keeping him close to the top of the mens game but he def lost a step from '04 - '07 version after '17
 
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