what should the score be from a 3.5 player vs. a 4.0?

mark1

Semi-Pro
i am wondering this as i have not been certified since i was in high school three and 1/2 years ago. i played a certified 3.5 yesterday and destroyed him with ease 6-1, 6-0 with my only lost game due to the fact that i double faulted three times trying out a new serve grip. (obviously it wasnt working out). Just curious because back in high school i was a 4.0, but lacked the consistency, strength and shotmaking ability i have now. Just curious as to what the real world difference should be between a 3.5 and 4.0. right now i would estimate myself as a 4.0 with 4.5 ability if i can put it all together on one of those magical days.

thanks guys, just wish i could find a good place to get certified here in LSU country. also do you have to be a certified usta member to get certified with an NTRP rating? i would like to be re-tested as i dont want to be misleading about my playing level.
 

Indiantwist

Semi-Pro
Thats a subjective question. For example I have "Lost to" and also "beat" couple of certified 4.5's (i personally put myself at 3.5+). I also LOST to and BEAT 3.0-4.0

The scores vary greatly. Somedays when i am on song, the other person may be having a bad day and guess what 6-0,6-1 happens. Vice versa is true.

As a general rule, my game is largely dependent on the opponents game. he plays higher standard, i try to raise my level (beyond a point i cant raise ofcourse or i would be federer) and thats how game goes.

However a 4.0/4.5 player should be able to beat a 3.5 player consistently and with less trouble. thats the key.
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
Destroying one 3.5 is not going to guarantee you a 4.5 rating. I am a strong 4.0 and typically beat 3.5's like 6-1, 6-1. A weak 3.5 the score might be 6-0, 6-0 but a strong 3.5 it might be like 6-2, 6-2. You are probably a strong 4.0 like myself and possibly 4.5 but you need to play other 4.5s and see how you do. I lose to 4.5s like 6-4, 6-3 or 7-6, 6-1 or similar. I beat weak 4.0s like 6-3, 6-2 and solid 4.0s like 6-4, 6-3. Just play alot of opponents close to your own level. Double bagel does usually means you are at least a level better if not two than your opponent.
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
i say im an average 3.5 on a pretty decent day and some days im off but its all in my head. but it depends i mean, sometimes u have good days sometimes bad. there are double bagels in the pros, davenport and sharapova. i mean, was the guy clearly worse than you? or did u have similar rallies but u just won 1 more point every game? how are pts won for him? all determine things that the score dont tell.
 

Indiantwist

Semi-Pro
I think as a general rule of thumb, a Higher level player should beat lower level player consistently and with less "trouble".
 
S

SageOfDeath

Guest
Yea its very general. The NTRP system is so general because every player is so different. Maybe one player is proficient in their forehands and serves but are weak on their backhand and volleys. A player at a lower level could easily beat that player with just good placement.

To me my NTRP doesn't matter that much, it will if I sign up for a USTA tournament.
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
The level of play varfies very widely at all the NTRP ratings. A top of the line 3.5 can compete and beat a lower end 4.0. You cannot always go by the rating. I am a 3.5 and there are 4.0's at my club that I can beat regularly. Then there are 3.5's that I am barely able to stay on the court with. So measure your game against several players during matches.

In addition, there is no such thing as "certified" 3.5 or 4.0 player and you do not get certified any longer. If you want a rating, give yourself one through the self-rating guidelines found on the USTA website. Join a USTA league or play in USTA sanctioned tournaments and the computerized rating system will get you the rating you earn.

Louisiana is in the USTA Southern Section. Find your local league coordinator and follow his advice.
 
T

TwistServe

Guest
There is no margin for a 4.0 to beat a 3.5 because at these levels errors could killl you.. If a 3.5 decides to start pushing the ball to keep it in play, the 4.0 could end up losing if he's strategy is not intact. The difference here is that the 4.0 will have better strokes for the most part, and better placement for the most part.. But if the 4.0 goes for too much he'll easily keep the match close.

In genearl, the 4.0 will have less trouble against 3.5s.. that's about all you can say in general.
 

Indiantwist

Semi-Pro
How can i get info on USTA tournaments in ConnecTiCut?. I would like to play a tournament or two and see.

By " certification " i meant these guys were rated by their respective coaches and they also play lots of club level tournaments at that level and have won a few.
 

mark1

Semi-Pro
yea i definately know that the scores will definately vary alot. i guess the problem is that there just arent really alot of players with real rankings here except at the local country clubs which my being a student cannot afford to play at. i play against alot of people who say they are 4.0-4.5's and either can compete or defeat them the majority of the time. i have never been blown off the court by any of these players. however, it really doesnt mean much because since they arent a usta rated player, their self-rankings can only be taken with a grain of salt.

in regards to the match, no it was not close by any stretch of the imagination and it was clear that i was the better ball striker and the better strategist as well. i probably had maybe 10 errors in the course of the match. im kinda a consistent baseliner who waits for my opportunity to be offensive. i like to mix up spins and depths to get the other player off balance and out of their comfort zone. i would prefer playing a hard hitter as well as someone who likes to come to net. the problem is is that the only way to verify my skills is to guess...
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
Indian Twist, I suppose you can call yourself anything, but most rankings, standings and ratings in the U.S. for adults are through the USTA. Go to the USTA web site and select "sections". I believe Connecticut is still in New England. Get in there and browse around and find what you need.

Mark1, Louisiana has great USTA play and Baton Rouge has a bunch and not all is at private clubs. Contact the local league coordinator and get advice and direction from him. There is a tournament within 50 miles of BAton Rouge every weekend. Jump in some of those. Get started. You'll like it.
 

Grimjack

Banned
If you and your opponent have been reliably rated, you'll destroy every player a half-point or more below you, and be destroyed by every player a half-point or more above you.

If you ever hear anyone saying, "I'm a 4.5, and I can beat some 5.0's," something is wrong with the picture. Either the players in question haven't really established their rankings, or somebody is full of ####. A legit 5.0 tournament player notches routine straight-set victories over a legit 4.5 player 100 times out of 100. (Same all up and down the scale.)
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
Grimjack said:
If you and your opponent have been reliably rated, you'll destroy every player a half-point or more below you, and be destroyed by every player a half-point or more above you.

If you ever hear anyone saying, "I'm a 4.5, and I can beat some 5.0's," something is wrong with the picture. Either the players in question haven't really established their rankings, or somebody is full of ####. A legit 5.0 tournament player notches routine straight-set victories over a legit 4.5 player 100 times out of 100. (Same all up and down the scale.)

i think above 4.5, consistancy and strategy and placement plays more than using the right stroke and get in position and the beginner stuff. so a 5.0 could have a totally off day and making a lot of errors which could give 4.5 a chance to beat them. its not 100/100.
 

Grimjack

Banned
donnyz89 said:
i think above 4.5, consistancy and strategy and placement plays more than using the right stroke and get in position and the beginner stuff. so a 5.0 could have a totally off day and making a lot of errors which could give 4.5 a chance to beat them. its not 100/100.

When a 5.0's game collapses, he wins sets against 4.5's 6-3 instead of 6-0. When the difference in victory or defeat is a matter of how well each participant is playing on a given day, those players are of the same rank.
 

x Southpaw x

Semi-Pro
Grimjack said:
If you and your opponent have been reliably rated, you'll destroy every player a half-point or more below you, and be destroyed by every player a half-point or more above you.

If you ever hear anyone saying, "I'm a 4.5, and I can beat some 5.0's," something is wrong with the picture. Either the players in question haven't really established their rankings, or somebody is full of ####. A legit 5.0 tournament player notches routine straight-set victories over a legit 4.5 player 100 times out of 100. (Same all up and down the scale.)
Was gonna post something very similar to that... but Grimjack already did it... so...

And yes even on an off day, the difference is still huge. That's why it's really hard to tell how far behind in skill you are from someone you are playing, and even harder to tell the difference from someone you are watching. You might be playing someone who is hitting similar strokes with same pace and spin, just that he's more consistent and you think he's only slightly above you, when in actual fact, his timing, ability to take on the rise, ability to retrieve difficult balls, and perception all surpasses you. Or you might be watching someone with a really fast serve like you do, and then you play him and realize his serve has a lethal american twist.
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
Grimjack, that is a bold statement. LOL. And where I am is not nearly true with regard to NTRP ratings, which is what we are discussing. A newly promoted 5.0 may be one hundreth of a point removed from being a 4.5. He is likely to get waxed by several 4.5's that are ready to get moved up. And this hold true up and down the ratings system. Anyone that plays within this system witnesses this daily in USTA league play and tournaments.
 

mark1

Semi-Pro
yea, according to easitennis i am between a 4.0 and 4.5, likely closer to the 4.0 level. It have a pretty big serve that gives most people some trouble and a good second serve kicker. I hit with good, heavy topspin and can also flatten it out if i want to. My weakness would be my backhand as it is difficult for me to get offensive shots off of my backhand unless i hit a slice approach shot or passing shot dtl. My forehand is solid and very dependable. I rely on consistency and placement and angles and either wait for a short ball to attack and get to net or wait for the opponent to either make an error or come to net on a weak shot and have a passing shot opportunity. I guess you could call me a counter-puncher with a good serving game and very good return game. Its interesting because over the years, (i took two years off to recover from rotator cuff injuries), the two things i have improved with are my patience which allows me to play smart, and a much bigger serve as my size and strength has greatly improved since my high school years.
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
I think 4.5 and 5.0 the score is supposed to be like 6-2 with the 4.5 holding serve a couple of times. If the 5.0 is having an off day and the 4.5 is on then it could go to tiebreak. Maybe the 4.5 wins ten sets or less out of 100, probably less than 5 if they are exactly one level apart. Holding serve is often the difference at higher levels, and players tend to hold serve more than at lower levels so a 4.5 can keep the game score close if they have a decent serve. I hold serve about twice as often as I break when playing higher level opponents (50% holds to 20% breaks or similar 60/30 or 40/10).
 

tom-selleck

Professional
i'd say if both players are legit mid-range in their ratings, a 4.0 beats a 3.5 6-2 6-1 (maybe 3.5 wins a game or two more the whole match). although it always helps a lower ranked player if they can serve well and/or chase down alot of balls (two things that can keep it somewhat close).

can someone explain what a 4.0 is??? would that be 3.75's to 4.25's if we did it that exactly??? or would it be 4.00 to 4.49???? how does it work??

also, is a 4.0 supposed to have one of serve, forehand or backhand as weapon??? or, weapon more of a 4.5 concept??
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
4.0s usually have a minor weapon, for me it's the serve but for others it's often the forehand and sometimes a volley weapon, but it's not a real advanced or always dependable weapon but the start of a decent weapon that points can be won with. 3.5s can have weapons too but they are too undependable and can often lose because of their so called weapon failing them (overhitting).

The 4.0 I played last night has a flat forehand weapon so I hit to his backhand but he runs around it. Luckily he makes enough errors with his forehand that it only gives him a slight advantage when he uses it and I can try to avoid it as much as possible so that I have the advantage the rest of the time.
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
Grimjack said:
A legit 5.0 tournament player notches routine straight-set victories over a legit 4.5 player 100 times out of 100. (Same all up and down the scale.)

Obviously overstated and, therefore, completely pointless.

You've constructed some theoretical "hard line" between 4.5 and 5.0 (and other ratings) that does not exist in the real world.
Otherwise, we would have to believe that the moment a 4.5 becomes a 5.0 he all of a sudden can beat EVERY 4.5 that used to beat him, such as maybe last week? No way.
In the real world there is a continuum and there are individual match ups that can favour the lower rated player. Right now I can think of a 3.0 player that I am 2-7 against that I would not have as good a chance beating tomorrow than a 4.0 player I know who I am ~12-1 against. Each one has been in the middle of the standings for years in their respective leagues and are typical players for their ratings. The 4.0 player has not yet discovered a strategy that works well against me, as some of my fellow 3.5's have done. He batters many 4.0's into submission with deep, hard FH ground strokes. I happen to have an unusually strong ground game for a 3.5 and can hang with him and many other higher rated power baseliners. He is not willing or is incapable of exploiting my forecourt game's weaknesses. I also know what this 4.0 is going to do ahead of time because I can read him like a book.
 

cak

Professional
tom-selleck said:
can someone explain what a 4.0 is??? would that be 3.75's to 4.25's if we did it that exactly??? or would it be 4.00 to 4.49???? how does it work??

A 4.0 is a 3.51 to 4.0. A good 3.5, that started the season at 3.5 might well be rated higher dynamically mid year than a low 4.0, as the end of the year ratings are a snap shot of everyone's rating taken sometime in December. Also, National USTA lets folks appeal ratings if they are less than .01 above their cutoff. So, given two 3.51s, if one appeals and the other doesn't you have two folks with the same internal rating playing under different levels, one 3.5, the other 4.0.
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
Camillio, I hope you have better luck with this argument than I did. I, of course, agree with you 100%. It happens everyday.
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
I go by weak, solid, and strong to subdivide each level. It works once you get to 3.5 and 4.0 since so many people are at those levels and after a few matches you know exactly who can beat who and who can't. It's harder at the 2.5 and 3.0 levels for me to divide into weak, solid, and strong since I don't play with too many players at those levels. I can't tell a weak 5.0 from a solid 5.0 since I don't play them much either and they are rarer to find. But lots of 3.5s so that is the easiest to subdivide.
 

Camilio Pascual

Hall of Fame
tennis-n-sc said:
Camillio, I hope you have better luck with this argument than I did. I, of course, agree with you 100%. It happens everyday.

No problem, I doubt even Grimjack really literally believes what he said.
Let's do a poll.
 

Grimjack

Banned
Camilio Pascual said:
No problem, I doubt even Grimjack really literally believes what he said.
Let's do a poll.

When I talk of "legit" 4.5's or 5.0's, I mean people who have shown they belong in those categories. Yes, people go up and down, but they get the "number title" before results determine whether the title is earned. Once earned, the numbers reflect a substantial gulf in ability and results. A legit 5.0 crushes a legit 4.5...yes...100 times out of 100. I can't even imagine a cirucmstance where it goes to a tiebreak (unless the guy in question is just a service monster who can't be broken, but has little else).

Yes, numerical upsets happen, but not ones that reflect the actual abilities of the players.
 

cervelo

Rookie
The match-up makes the match - there really is no good way to "predict" set scores between closely ranked NTRP's - (save for, perhaps, the higher levels, I will admit that ...which is part of what Grim- is saying, I think)

The numbers are guidelines for fair match play and pairings - relative skill levels, if you like ... the numbers also offer some sense of predictability b/c a 4.0 should beat a 3.5 ... generally speaking, of course ...

Never forget that every player poses different issues for every other player! If your 4.0 game matches up poorly against a 3.5 strength - throw the ratings out the window!!!!

The posters above show the differences and variations in the results from player to player, never-mind the ratings ... any one player can struggle or dominate against someone with a lesser arsenal of skills on any day for any 100 reasons ...
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
I believe the legit 5.0 beats the legit 4.5 roughly 98/100 times +/- 2%. Some people believe a full level means 6-0, 6-0 but that is not true. It's more like 6-2, 6-2 at 5.0-4.5 and 6-1, 6-1 at 3.5-3.0 from all I have witnessed and I have played a ton of matches in the last 5 years like around 500 matches ranging from playing 3.0s to 5.0s and have witnessed many more matches amongst friends and at tournaments.
 

cervelo

Rookie
Kehven, you're an example of why it's not true ...

you're a solid 4.0 playing a solid 4.5 and handling him by way of match-up ... Yes, you "generally" lose by only one break, the sets have been close and your slice consistently breaks-down his FH while your BH is better altogether. Truth is, you have identified that it probably comes down to only a few factors which would lead you to getting some wins against him ...

I would argue that the difference between the two of you is minor ...

(By the way, have you played him since ?)
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
I am more of a strong 4.0 and he is more of a weak 4.5 so the difference is very close but he has the superior forehand with much heavier spin and footspeed advantage too. We neutralize each other pretty well on serve and return as he returns a little better and I maybe serve slightly better overall but his second serve is more consistent with good kick.

We played doubles last night and he had a solid 3.5 doubles partner (weak 3.5 in singles) and I had a strong 3.5 doubles partner (solid 3.5 in singles) so we were evenly matched. I forgot to bring new balls so we used some that were a little flat and he didn't get any warm up since he came late, but they still jumped out to a 4-1 lead but then I started ripping flat forehands at his 3.5 partner and went a stretch without making errors (I remember groaning when I did finally make an error on a backhand volley) and we came back and won 6-4 and the 4.5er left after only one set.

I thought he was mad because of the flat balls or because I was picking on his partner, but he emailed me today with another 4.0 player (co-worker where he interns) who wants to join our group.

He had played earlier in the night and didn't want to play singles when I suggested it when he first got there.
 
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