As the old faces begin to wash away and we are greeted with young, new prospects on the men's tour, we begin to see some parallels to the past. As of now, the predominant emerging rivalry is Sinner-Alcaraz. With Sinner, we have an ultra-consistent baseliner with a rally ball possessing enough power and margin to dictate rallies against even the most proficient. He is a capable volleyer, but doesn't come to net often. With Alcaraz, we have an exciting all-court talent. His game thrives on variety and shotmaking, whether it be volleys, drop shots, that weird forehand push slice thing, or his beautiful forehand that can end a point in one fell swoop. Although they obviously aren't perfect matches, the dynamics in the matchup seem to be similar to Djokovic-Federer. A consistent aggressive baseliner vs. An All-court maestro. Unfortunately with Djokovic vs. Federer, we were unable to see them compete prime for prime, and as such we were never really able to gauge who the better player was. It seems that taking the outcome of this upcoming Alcaraz-Sinner rivalry, with Alcaraz as A Federer-Proxy and Sinner as a Djokovic-Proxy, and extrapolating conclusions from that will be a great tool for tennis historians and fans alike.
What the Sinner-Alcaraz rivalry can tell us about Djokovic vs. Federer
- Thread starter LetWinner
- Start date
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
I don’t know. The thing is Djoker wasn’t really a Fed contemporary. He was 6 years younger and he didn’t even win his first slam until Fed was on his 12th or something ridiculous like that. Sinner-alcaraz are basically around the same age and both their runs are still starting. Djokers run didn’t start until 2011 when Fed was already 30 and on the back 9’of his career
It’s why I never understood when Fed or Hewitt started. beating Pete and Andre. It’s like “ ummm yea they should they are a DECADE younger. That’s big in tennis”
Djoker is kind of the era after Fed.
I look at more like Nadal and djokovic. Early bloomer vs a more late bloomer
It’s why I never understood when Fed or Hewitt started. beating Pete and Andre. It’s like “ ummm yea they should they are a DECADE younger. That’s big in tennis”
Djoker is kind of the era after Fed.
I look at more like Nadal and djokovic. Early bloomer vs a more late bloomer
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MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Are you saying I have to root for Alcaraz because it'll retroactively prove Peak Fed > Peak Nole?
Although I cannot say it will prove it, it will definitely provide some solid evidence.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
WTF Seriously WTF kind of reasoning is this
Have you seen Federer serve? He had almost a GOAT level serve. None of the three, Nole, Sinner and definitely not Carlito , little Carlito has that serve.
If serve was neutralized, Nole would annihilate our dear Roger. I am sorry if it hurts some people's feelings.
Have you seen Federer serve? He had almost a GOAT level serve. None of the three, Nole, Sinner and definitely not Carlito , little Carlito has that serve.
If serve was neutralized, Nole would annihilate our dear Roger. I am sorry if it hurts some people's feelings.
InsuranceMan
Hall of Fame
OP it’s been a while since I’ve seen you post something welcome back
RaulRamirez
Legend
I was just going to post something similar, and even on the second point, it's a minor stretch.
Alcaraz is most similar to Federer because he plays an all-court game, and doesn't play all defensive game, as Nadal did when he first came up. The difference is that Alcaraz doesn't have Federer's serve.
Federer with the bigger racquet owned Nadal since 2014, therefore Djokovic and Federer were 1-2 outside of clay, just as Sinner and Alcaraz for the foreseeable future.
One big difference is: Federer was ice, Djokovic was fire; Sinner is ice, Alcaraz is fire.
Federer with the bigger racquet owned Nadal since 2014, therefore Djokovic and Federer were 1-2 outside of clay, just as Sinner and Alcaraz for the foreseeable future.
One big difference is: Federer was ice, Djokovic was fire; Sinner is ice, Alcaraz is fire.
This is a great point. Alcaraz is then a nerfed version of Federer. As such, if Sinner gains the upperhand in the rivalry, perhaps we cannot extrapolate anything from that. However, if Alcaraz does, then it makes the case for Federer even stronger. Interesting observation.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
We nolefams don't need to hear such bs reasoning at all. Now if sinner fails why would we care.
Every single modern player is now based on Djokovic. Not just sinner. Even alcaraz has a lot of similarities with Djokovic.
Every young player has similarities more with djokovic than others. Including our tiny little Carlito.
Every single modern player is now based on Djokovic. Not just sinner. Even alcaraz has a lot of similarities with Djokovic.
Every young player has similarities more with djokovic than others. Including our tiny little Carlito.
DSH
Bionic Poster
McGradey
Hall of Fame
There’s a wildness to Alcaraz’s game that Federer didn’t share, even in his unpolished form.
Sinner is also quite a different player to Djokovic, less tactical and more power based, though young Djoko also liked to smack the ball heaps. Young Djok was a crazy good athlete despite the stamina issues, Sinner is a super hitter but not really a standout athlete.
In short, I don’t think there’s much at all to be gained from this type of comparison other than some projected sense of validation of one’s own opinions.
Sinner is also quite a different player to Djokovic, less tactical and more power based, though young Djoko also liked to smack the ball heaps. Young Djok was a crazy good athlete despite the stamina issues, Sinner is a super hitter but not really a standout athlete.
In short, I don’t think there’s much at all to be gained from this type of comparison other than some projected sense of validation of one’s own opinions.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Not totally after Fed's era, they intermixed for the most part of Federer's career. Take under consideration that Djokovic won his first Slam in 2008. Federer won his first Slam in 2003 and his last one in 2018. In the 16-year span (2003-2018) of Federer winning Slams, Djokovic was his Slam-winner rival 11 years (2008 to 2018), that is to say, 69% of the time!
I repeat, between 2003 and 2018, the time span where Federer won Slams, Djokovic was his Slam-winner rival 69% of the time!
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Yes, we are talking of different persons.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Historically, Sinner was not a standout athlete in terms of fitness, but he has improved in that area a lot.
In terms of quickness, he usually surprises me catching some impossible drop shots from Alcaraz. He may not be as fast as Alcaraz, but he still moves pretty fast and has an excellent court coverage. I'd say he's a great athlete (a tier below the freaks of nature like Alcaraz of course). Don't let his skinny complexion fool you!
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
To catch a drop shot, I believe that the most important thing is anticipation.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
And velocity! A mix of both!
The only season that Federer "owned" Nadal was in 2017, so your claim lacks support.
In 2014, Nadal last won over Federer, so I'm literally right. Besides 2014 was the date of switching to new racquet.
Alcaraz is 20, Sinner is 22. Carlos has won 2 slams, Sinner-1. Carlos has won 5 masters titles, Sinner- less than 5, as far as I know. Alcaraz has won slams on grass and hard, Sinner only on hard. Of course, this can all change in Sinner's favor but, as of now, Alcaraz has had the superior career.
I have no clue why you quoted my post, not a single word you typed is related to what I said.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
BTW, nice three goated avatar.
I hope it offends the most people possible.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz is far more similar to Nadal than Federer. In fact he is very similar to Djokovic as well.
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
By 2008 feds peak was already over Though. And his prime over by 2011. Most of the time they played Fed was already in his 30s.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Press X to doubt.
Federer's peak slam winning years were over by 2008 because that was when Rafa reached his peak or near peak, and Novak was at his near peak. Roger dominated all players from 11-18, except Rafa and Novak, though he did dominate even Rafa on hard courts the last few years before he retired. Roger, like Novak and Rafa, was still a great player capable of winning slams, into his mid-late thirties.
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
when you’re up against two fellow GOAT candidates every little decline matters especially when they hit their peak and you’re already past yours. It’s a big reason why Djoker turned the h2H around against Rafa. Rafas level started to drop by 2011 from his peak 2008-2010 level
And before anyone says Rafa was still at his peak in 2011, I ask name ONE surface 2011 Rafa could beat 08-10 Rafa on
04-07 Fed would straight set his 2008-2012 self every time easy on all surface. Just as 2011-2015 Djoker would easily straight set his older self every time on every surface
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ShovelBackhand
Rookie
You think Alcaraz's serve is worse than Baez, Tommy Paul, Rublev, Tsitsipas and De Minaur? I think his serve is at least as good as Tsitsipas pre injury and Ruud rn, and his service game overall is still top 3.
Rn is key. He's always had bursts of good serving. Notably in the Wimbledon final set when he ran away with it after breaking.
Currently they're modeling it after the ideal version of the FAA serve. So far so good.
But I do wonder if he'll ever truly have an elite slice serve.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Oops
Comparing It with stephanos wow. This is what stephanos deserves though. For far too long he is busy canoodling with his tennis gf. It's disappointing and not really a champion worthy behavior.
Yes to all except Baez.
No. Not as a standalone shot. And that is a ludicrous statement on Tsitsipas. Do you watch tennis or just look at the serve stats on the ATP website?
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Even as a kid, tsitsipas had a strong serve on back of which he reached AO semis. He beat Roger in R16 saving 10 bps. A lot of that was based on how he was serving.
Also I'm not sure if tossing the ball higher is a sustainable solution to his serving woes. Experts care to chime in?
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
The logic of this thread is completely inpenetrable to me. Another day on TTW.
ShovelBackhand
Rookie
I have watched Tsitsipas get broken by servebots, and as a standalone shot his serve is pretty disappointing for how tall he is. The clunky motion and balance are big technical flaws, but maybe that augments how bad tsitsipas' serve looks to me more than it actually hurts the quality. Alcaraz is a great athlete, and the serve is probably one of the most athletically demanding shots in tennis. I have always thought he's got a solid motion, and being more powerful and balanced can serve bigger firsts and less attackable seconds than Tsitsipas. The rest of his game might be confounding that, but up until recently and against particularly good returners (like med, sinner and djokovic) his serve could be deadly. Sinner and med were the only ones that broke him in Indian wells. Since he just lost to Dimitrov I forgot to throw his name in there, but until recently grigor is another name with a really poor serve for his height like Tsitsipas. Dimitrov got high doubles to boot to. I would say djokovic, sinner, and humbert are the only ones in the top 20 with a more accurate serve than sinner, and that is alcaraz's biggest weak point on serve. Alcaraz did get cooked tonight, but dimitrov is defnitely the best returner with a ohbh on tour. Fora while that ad serve wide used to cook dimitrov like tsitsipas, but good returners definitely know how to attack alcaraz's serve.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Dimitrov and Tsitsipas had two good serves always. Even few years ago.
Tsitsipas serve is even better than Dimitrov.
Tsitsipas serve is even better than Dimitrov.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Its their return games and WEAK as hell backhand which held them back. Tsitsipas has much stronger fh than Dimi and bigger serve. But he also lacked great slice that Dimi had.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
If Dimitrov has become best returner with 1HBH then that's another proof that 1HBH is dead.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Carlos is combination of all three players. Doesn't mean he is that much better than all because he took strength from each players and also some weaknesses.
His serve is like Nadal's for sure.
ShovelBackhand
Rookie
Dimitrov has routinely hit sub 85 mph second serves since 2016. His second serve is a stain on his game to the same degree as Murray, but he has had double fault problems to. Tsitsipas' is not as bad, and I think I exaggerated how bad it was because the landing ugly. On the other hand, Dimitrov has dismantled some serve bots in his time, and he has a beautiful chip return. Look at his matches against kyrgios returning one of the best serves on tour as good as anyone. Tsitsipas' return is pretty bad I think we can agree.
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