What to do against a sandbagger/ringer?

mikej said:
and creighton, judging by some of your prior posts just two months ago (https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...s-3-5-at-it-again.758485/page-3#post-17694571), you and your teams are exactly what the OP hates, which is also good for a laugh:

"Yeah, I threw games last year to come back down to 3.5 from 4.0 then got smoked 0,1 in one district final . I did manage to only lose 3,3 to someone that went unbeaten at nationals though in my other district deciding match ."

"I was a starter on 3 teams that were gunning for nationals, each with multiple players way out of level."

so, you know, enjoy still trying to capture your glory days by chasing banners in USTA league tennis
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Looking 2 months back in someone’s profile looking for posts that support your point is quite the life choice.
 
mikej said:
and creighton, judging by some of your prior posts just two months ago (https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...s-3-5-at-it-again.758485/page-3#post-17694571), you and your teams are exactly what the OP hates, which is also good for a laugh:

"Yeah, I threw games last year to come back down to 3.5 from 4.0 then got smoked 0,1 in one district final . I did manage to only lose 3,3 to someone that went unbeaten at nationals though in my other district deciding match ."

"I was a starter on 3 teams that were gunning for nationals, each with multiple players way out of level."

so, you know, enjoy still trying to capture your glory days by chasing banners in USTA league tennis
Click to expand...

By your standards, I'm the alpha male here because I'm better than the people I beat and they should be thankful they get to play me.

It's funny how mentally fragile tennis players can be, especially those who grew up playing the sport because it's primarily about who has the money for access and not who is actually athletic.
 
Creighton said:
By your standards, I'm the alpha male here because I'm better than the people I beat and they should be thankful they get to play me.

It's funny how mentally fragile tennis players can be, especially those who grew up playing the sport because it's primarily about who has the money for access and not who is actually athletic.
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Man I’ve learned so much about your insecurities in just a few posts

You’re right, in a different lifetime you were Nadal, not a guy who cannot hang that 3.5 banner
 
PaddyDutch said:
Looking 2 months back in someone’s profile looking for posts that support your point is quite the life choice.
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I’m a pretty fast reader, so didn’t take me much time

But only because I had lots of private reading lessons growing up, in a different lifetime it would have taken me more than 90 seconds
 
mikej said:
I’m a pretty fast reader, so didn’t take me much time

But only because I had lots of private reading lessons growing up, in a different lifetime it would have taken me more than 90 seconds
Click to expand...

I laughed.

For anyone that agrees with this guy, you should know that you're "agreeing" with a troll.
 
mikej said:
I’m a pretty fast reader, so didn’t take me much time

But only because I had lots of private reading lessons growing up, in a different lifetime it would have taken me more than 90 seconds
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Gifted tennis player AND reader. We are so lucky to have you.

The point is that it is a bizarre choice to read back to prove you’re right. Kinda creepy…

Either way, onto the ignore list you go.
 
Stanimal3 said:
I’m new to USTA league. Played my second match ever. Mixed doubles 6.0

The team had a ridiculous set w/l ratio. And as I watched one guy play, I knew he wasn’t a 3.0 and unlikely a 3.5. Turns out he was one of my opponents.

It’s really easy for me to have a good time playing tennis. Even when I’m losing. But this really soured me on the League experience so far. This guy was clearly a strong 4.0 at the least.

To make matters worse, he never cracked a smile, was extremely serious the entire time but toyed with us. Flat serves on the lines, slice serves running away, volley winners from every position, drop shots, slice winners, heavy topspin, so on. Reflexes were stellar, form was pretty immaculate, and he didn’t need to try that hard. Kind of looked bored.

Did we play our best? No. I also need to learn how to pick on the weaker player when that person is female (although she was a solid but weak 3.0). But there’s only so much to expect from us at 6.0.

Should I expect this more often? What do I do in these situations? Just lie down and take it? I face the same team In a few weeks. We learned that the players were recruited, I assume to make nationals? The guy I played against has played nationals in various categories including 3.5 men’s and had a strong winning record in 4.0 match play at a local club.

I should be a 3.5. I’m working on my game weekly. But Im not sure what I can do with my current skill set and consistency level when I’m faced with players like these.
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Sad to say, but you will see more of that. I used to see it a lot back when I played 6.0 but usually not until a Regional playoff or Sectional. Just know that this type of jackassery is not uncommon in USTA.
 
Stanimal3 said:
I’m new to USTA league. Played my second match ever. Mixed doubles 6.0

The team had a ridiculous set w/l ratio. And as I watched one guy play, I knew he wasn’t a 3.0 and unlikely a 3.5. Turns out he was one of my opponents.

It’s really easy for me to have a good time playing tennis. Even when I’m losing. But this really soured me on the League experience so far. This guy was clearly a strong 4.0 at the least.

To make matters worse, he never cracked a smile, was extremely serious the entire time but toyed with us. Flat serves on the lines, slice serves running away, volley winners from every position, drop shots, slice winners, heavy topspin, so on. Reflexes were stellar, form was pretty immaculate, and he didn’t need to try that hard. Kind of looked bored.

Did we play our best? No. I also need to learn how to pick on the weaker player when that person is female (although she was a solid but weak 3.0). But there’s only so much to expect from us at 6.0.

Should I expect this more often? What do I do in these situations? Just lie down and take it? I face the same team In a few weeks. We learned that the players were recruited, I assume to make nationals? The guy I played against has played nationals in various categories including 3.5 men’s and had a strong winning record in 4.0 match play at a local club.

I should be a 3.5. I’m working on my game weekly. But Im not sure what I can do with my current skill set and consistency level when I’m faced with players like these.
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I always tell people to start league 1 level lower than they think bc playing competitive is harder than rallying. If youre new to tennis though there may not be much at 2.5. But assuming you’re a real 3.0 and up against a real 4.0 theres not much to do. Hit lobs over the guy. Play keep away. Try mixing spins. its like expecting a middleweight to box against a heavyweight.

I think you can learn playing vs someone one level above or below. Someone 2 levels higher will just beat you hitting normal safe shots. Again take a wholistic view, some guys have limited mobility which keeps their rating down. Some guys have a banger of a serve but nothing else.
 
mikej said:
Who’s he going to sandbag against? he’s a 3.0 - it’s exactly the type of entitlement low level USTA league tennis breeds - ‘I’m bad at this sport and don’t think I should have to play matches against someone better or matches I cannot win’
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This is sort of a corollary to the "everyone better than me is an out of level ringer" attitude that pops up every now and again, too.
 
Mungo said:
Not sure this has been said yet, but from USTA FAQ on ratings: “A typical match result for a player with a 3.01 rating versus a 3.49 player, both of whom are 3.5s, would be 6-0, 6-0 in favor of the higher rated player.”

source: https://www.usta.com/en/home/play/adult-tennis/programs/national/usta-ntrp-ratings-faqs.html
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Yeah you’re the second person to mention it in this thread but a very important point so I applaud your ‘second’ - it’s an explicit expectation, straight from the USTA, that some matches in NTRP leagues will be completely one-sided

And in fact it’s these types of matches that importantly lead to movement / bump ups / bump downs over time
 
Mungo said:
Not sure this has been said yet, but from USTA FAQ on ratings: “A typical match result for a player with a 3.01 rating versus a 3.49 player, both of whom are 3.5s, would be 6-0, 6-0 in favor of the higher rated player.”

source: https://www.usta.com/en/home/play/adult-tennis/programs/national/usta-ntrp-ratings-faqs.html
Click to expand...
That makes sense. Years ago before self-rating and mid-season computer bump ups/down, a very experienced league coordinator told me scoring a minimum of 3 games in a USTA NTRP match was considered a competitive match. Based on my less than stellar win/loss match history over the last 8-10 years and never being moved up or down, this too seems to make sense.
 
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Creighton said:
I'm just curious how often this matchup actually occurs?
Click to expand...

@schmke probably has a database that could answer that question. Maybe he's already written about it. It would be interesting to put it to the test, as his rankings have to be close enough of an approximation to test the general truth of the claim. My guess is that those matches are lopsided but not double-bagels most of the time.
 
denoted said:
@schmke probably has a database that could answer that question. Maybe he's already written about it. It would be interesting to put it to the test, as his rankings have to be close enough of an approximation to test the general truth of the claim. My guess is that those matches are lopsided but not double-bagels most of the time.
Click to expand...
Some quick analysis:

I show for 2023 championship year leagues there were 5,590 singles matches in 18+/40+ that ended in 6-0,6-0 scores.

Of these, 3,925 were between players with established ratings (omitting those between self-rates that didn't have a rating yet).

In these matches, the average rating difference going into the match was 0.35.

The big surprise though is that the lower rated player won these 6-0,6-0 matches 7.1% of the time!

The thing to keep in mind is that a player has one dynamic rating for both singles and doubles.

The first case of a 6-0,6-0 upset I looked at was when a two 4.5s played in a 40+ match where the higher rated was a 55+ player who only played singles in 2022 and started 2023 playing a singles match against someone that primarily plays singles.

Others aren't as obvious and just appear to be outliers, but remember, this is recreational adult league tennis and players play with injuries or just have a bad day, or some players are practicing and improving and playing above their rating and get a good (for them) match-up against an injured player or doubles specialist or any other number of reasons for doing poorly day.
 
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schmke said:
Some quick analysis:

I show for 2023 championship year leagues there were 5,590 singles matches in 18+/40+ that ended in 6-0,6-0 scores.

Of these, 3,925 were between players with established ratings (omitting those between self-rates that didn't have a rating yet).

In these matches, the average rating difference going into the match was 0.35.

The big surprise though is that the lower rated player won these 6-0,6-0 matches 7.1% of the time!
Click to expand...
So more or less what the USTA tells us to expect, 0,0 matches happen when there’s a significant gap between players but a gap that can absolutely exist within the same NTRP level

And that surprise is an interesting factoid, but basically the higher rated player dominates roughly 14/15 of those matches, again as expected

Edit - and thanks for the stats work!
 
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schmke said:
but remember, this is recreational adult league tennis and players play with injuries or just have a bad day
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Reminds me of the time I had this emotionally volatile player on my team who played as well or as bad as he felt like. Once he was up a set and a break in USTA singles when he got a text from some girl he was dating that angered/upset him. He proceeded to hit every ball out, lose the match in about 20 mins and drove away without talking to anyone of the team. Rec players:eek:
 
They say you should play 1/3 your tennis against better players, 1/3 at level and 1/3 against weaker players. Consider this one of your plays against better competition. You got to see some difficult serves, you had to work to avoid setting up the stronger player, you had to think about strategizing. Good practice I say.

Just remember: 6.0 should only be about fun, not about winning. It's bad tennis that's been artificially categorized so there can be some semblance of competition. There are no bragging rights from winning at that level. Something your opponent maybe forgot.
 
Max G. said:
Just play your best and move on. Not much else to do. Sometimes you end up playing people way better than you, and that happens regardless of the rating system or the league structure - I've seen mismatches in ultimate tennis and in UTR and whatever other random leagues I've played.
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100% agree. I’ve been on both sides of this and you make the most of it. Play your game and move on. Playing against a better can help you improve.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
Just remember: 6.0 should only be about fun, not about winning. It's bad tennis that's been artificially categorized so there can be some semblance of competition.
Click to expand...
*stands and applauds*

great phrasing, it's like Twain visited the Talk TW forums
 
Mungo said:
USTA FAQ on ratings: “A typical match result for a player with a 3.01 rating versus a 3.49 player, both of whom are 3.5s, would be 6-0, 6-0 in favor of the higher rated player.”
Click to expand...

Creighton said:
I'm just curious how often this matchup actually occurs?
Click to expand...

I was curious too - I checked my data on 2023 ratings-eligible singles matches among 4.0 players in my area, and then looked at their Tennisrecord year-end rating estimates. Among 184 matches, there were 7 where one player was rated 0.47-0.50 higher than the other.

So that's about 4% of singles matches near the extreme border of being considered within the same NTRP level. There were a bunch more where the difference was more than 0.50, but many of those include 3.5 guys who playing up.

The favorite won all 7 of those matches as expected, but there were some close ones and no double-bagels. Here were all the scores:

6-1, 6-2
4-6, 6-3, 6-3
6-0, 6-1
7-5, 7-6
6-2, 5-7, 1-0
6-0, 6-3
3-6, 6-0, 1-0

The close ones are probably explained by singles/doubles skill differences. That and perhaps Tennisrecord being not great, so take for what it's worth.
 
mikej said:
...when I was growing up as a junior player...
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biggest difference IMO, is that juniors (and most 4.5+), are playing so often (daily?) to hone their game... that one loss is not a big deal,... next match/practice/tournament is probably tomorrow or "next weekend"....
but folks in the 2.5-low4.0 range, are probably only playing once or twice a weak... so that one usta match they are playing is a BIG DEAL... and might be the only one for a couple weeks.
 
nyta2 said:
biggest difference IMO, is that juniors (and most 4.5+), are playing so often (daily?) to hone their game... that one loss is not a big deal,... next match/practice/tournament is probably tomorrow or "next weekend"....
but folks in the 2.5-low4.0 range, are probably only playing once or twice a weak... so that one usta match they are playing is a BIG DEAL... and might be the only one for a couple weeks.
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When I played USTA leagues, my USTA matches were not more important for me than my other social matches. It is all rec tennis and you could say I cared or didn’t care equally about all of them. I didn’t like losing any match and a USTA match loss wasn’t more devastating than any other loss, but neither was an USTA win any sweeter. The wins against better opponents were sweet whether it was USTA or not.

The only thing different about USTA for me was the team format where you cared about the team’s result in addition to your own match. But for most of my USTA career, I played on teams which had no chance of winning the local league and so even that wasn’t a big deal.

On the other hand, I do play every day (since 2011) when I’m in town uninjured and so, there is always a match tomorrow.
 
socallefty said:
The only thing different about USTA for me was the team format where you cared about the team’s result in addition to your own match.
Click to expand...
I feel the same way. USTA seems to have more weight than a social match because I want to deliver a "win" for my team.
 
i used to care more about usta because it was "for the record"... but these days it's still just another match... if i lose to a ringer... it's just something i've come to expect in usta (seems like ringers are the only way to go deep in nationals :P), and just welcome it as a free opportunity to learn from...
 
Wow this thread took a turn. Thanks to everyone who responded genuinely.

I’m fine with losing. I’ve lost a lot and had fun. Not a beginner. And the guy placed second in a local 4.0 non-USTA league so not like he was just a good 3.0.

I was upset after the loss because it just wasn’t fun and I had traveled over an hour to play at 8:30pm with work the next morning. I joined league to practice and have fun. Kind of goes against the spirit in my opinion to join at a level so clearly below yours.

I’ll compare it to another situation. I got matched up against a 4.0 player at a UTR event. Wasn’t his fault. We played a singles match and he smoked me 1 and 0. I learned a lot, I wasn’t upset. He was really cool. I threw everything I had at him. It’s not really the same in mixed doubles in my opinion. Especially when mixed doubles partner didn’t even know how to use the right grip for volleys. And not the same when you made time and paid for a match within a skill range.
 
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nyta2 said:
play your best.
enjoy the challenge.
learn everything you can about playing someone much better than you (ask him questions after!!!).
thank him for the free lesson!

zero people at 5.0 complain about "ringers" (eg. playing someone that is a 6.0+)... they are all thrilled they get to play better competition, and learn something in the process.
if anything, it motivates them to get better (fit, more consistent, etc...).
Click to expand...
That’s the approach I’m trying to take with UTR.
 
Stanimal3 said:
Wow this thread took a turn. Thanks to everyone who responded genuinely.

I’m fine with losing. I’ve lost a lot and had fun. Not a beginner. And the guy placed second in a local 4.0 non-USTA league so not like he was just a good 3.0.

I was upset after the loss because it just wasn’t fun and I had traveled over an hour to play at 8:30pm with work the next morning. I joined league to practice and have fun. Kind of goes against the spirit in my opinion to join at a level so clearly below yours.

I’ll compare it to another situation. I got matched up against a 4.0 player at a UTR event. Wasn’t his fault. We played a singles match and he smoked me 1 and 0. I learned a lot, I wasn’t upset. He was really cool. I threw everything I had at him. It’s not really the same in mixed doubles in my opinion. Especially when mixed doubles partner didn’t even know how to use the right grip for volleys. And not the same when you made time and paid for a match within a skill range.
Click to expand...
rated 3.0
Playing mixed with someone who doesn’t know what grip to use for a volley
But not a beginner

Ok
 
Looking back on old threads in case anyone ever checks this out.

I learned a lot after playing more USTA League. Maybe this is the same in other cities, but in our area, we've got a bunch of captains who skirt rules or do everything in their power to get a leg up on competition.

I tried League in a different region and it was a much better experience. So if anyone feels down for facing someone way above their stated level, I don't think you should let anyone tell you how to feel. That kind of competition just may not be for you.
 
Stanimal3 said:
I’m new to USTA league. Played my second match ever. Mixed doubles 6.0

The team had a ridiculous set w/l ratio. And as I watched one guy play, I knew he wasn’t a 3.0 and unlikely a 3.5. Turns out he was one of my opponents.

It’s really easy for me to have a good time playing tennis. Even when I’m losing. But this really soured me on the League experience so far. This guy was clearly a strong 4.0 at the least.

To make matters worse, he never cracked a smile, was extremely serious the entire time but toyed with us. Flat serves on the lines, slice serves running away, volley winners from every position, drop shots, slice winners, heavy topspin, so on. Reflexes were stellar, form was pretty immaculate, and he didn’t need to try that hard. Kind of looked bored.

Did we play our best? No. I also need to learn how to pick on the weaker player when that person is female (although she was a solid but weak 3.0). But there’s only so much to expect from us at 6.0.

Should I expect this more often? What do I do in these situations? Just lie down and take it? I face the same team In a few weeks. We learned that the players were recruited, I assume to make nationals? The guy I played against has played nationals in various categories including 3.5 men’s and had a strong winning record in 4.0 match play at a local club.

I should be a 3.5. I’m working on my game weekly. But Im not sure what I can do with my current skill set and consistency level when I’m faced with players like these.
Click to expand...
Be grateful. You won't find many hitting partners willing to play down whole levels so you will rarely experience that quality. Enjoy it when the opportunity comes.
 
Badlad4023 said:
Be grateful. You won't find many hitting partners willing to play down whole levels so you will rarely experience that quality. Enjoy it when the opportunity comes.
Click to expand...

I don’t get why ppl don’t enjoy playing others who are significantly lower level. I have a blast being on either side of an asskicking. It’s the exhausting slogs against pushers with a higher rating that I don’t enjoy
 
6.0-7.0 mixed can be very hard for a mid to low 3.0 male. In 6.0 a very strong 3.5 male could play with a 2.5 female that is basically a 3.0 anyway. And even a high end 3.0 male can easily be 1.5 UTR points higher then a mid to low level 3.0. Even if the weaker 3.0 player has the stronger 3.0 female it will likely not make up for that difference.

In 7.0 a strong 4.0 male can play with a 3.0 female that is not that much worse then a 3.5 female.

If the weaker player is at all self aware they will let at least 70-80% of the balls go to the stronger player and just cover the alley and put away the easy balls that the stronger player creates.
 
Moon Shooter said:
6.0-7.0 mixed can be very hard for a mid to low 3.0 male. In 6.0 a very strong 3.5 male could play with a 2.5 female that is basically a 3.0 anyway. And even a high end 3.0 male can easily be 1.5 UTR points higher then a mid to low level 3.0. Even if the weaker 3.0 player has the stronger 3.0 female it will likely not make up for that difference.

In 7.0 a strong 4.0 male can play with a 3.0 female that is not that much worse then a 3.5 female.

If the weaker player is at all self aware they will let at least 70-80% of the balls go to the stronger player and just cover the alley and put away the easy balls that the stronger player creates.
Click to expand...
I captained a 6.0 mixed team in the spring. We had all 3.5 men and 2.5 women, and we murdered people. The only team who beat us, either in individual or team matches, was the team who made sectionals.
 
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