What was the main reason why Rafa could never beat Djokovic in 2011?

[Entername]

I've been binging old Djokodal matches over the years and the one stretch stands out the most is from IW 2011-AO 2012 where Djokovic beat Nadal 7 straight times in 7 straight finals all in big events.

Coming into IW 2011, Nadal led the H2H 16-7 over Djokovic, and after AO 2012, he proceeded to win 6 of the next 7 matches against the Serb...so what happened during those 7 matches in the middle that suddenly made Rafa a complete sitting duck?

2011 would've been the most dominant year of Rafa's career without Novak as he would've won 9 of 12 tournaments he entered between 2011 IW and 2011 USO, and he had his 2nd most ever wins vs top 10 players in a single season so his game was still working to perfection against everyone else.

Looking back it was such a puzzling time to be a Rafa fan because he was playing great tennis (unlike 2015/16) so it's not like it was difficult to watch him, but knowing he was gonna beat everyone else just to lose to Novak in the finals was madenning. I remember it started feeling that way around WI/USO when I found out it was gonna be Novak and not Federer in the finals and getting the feeling of "oh f*** not him again, this is not gonna end well lol"

 

[socallefty]

If you watched the matches again, what did you see? Most of us have lousy memories of matches from 12 years ago, but what I remember is that Djokovic was hitting more aggressively while keeping his error rate comparable to Nadal. And he was serving bigger also.

 

[Fintft]

Joker's flat strokes pushed him back?

 

[pj80]

Djo was just a better player overall

 

[dking68]

Because Peak Djokovic was better than Peak Rafa

 

[Nadal - GOAT]

I've been binging old Djokodal matches over the years and the one stretch stands out the most is from IW 2011-AO 2012 where Djokovic beat Nadal 7 straight times in 7 straight finals all in big events.

Coming into IW 2011, Nadal led the H2H 16-7 over Djokovic, and after AO 2012, he proceeded to win 6 of the next 7 matches against the Serb...so what happened during those 7 matches in the middle that suddenly made Rafa a complete sitting duck?

2011 would've been the most dominant year of Rafa's career without Novak as he would've won 9 of 12 tournaments he entered between 2011 IW and 2011 USO, and he had his 2nd most ever wins vs top 10 players in a single season so his game was still working to perfection against everyone else.

Looking back it was such a puzzling time to be a Rafa fan because he was playing great tennis (unlike 2015/16) so it's not like it was difficult to watch him, but knowing he was gonna beat everyone else just to lose to Novak in the finals was madenning. I remember it started feeling that way around WI/USO when I found out it was gonna be Novak and not Federer in the finals and getting the feeling of "oh f*** not him again, this is not gonna end well lol"

I think it was the sudden level up by Novak that Rafa took time to adapt to. In 2010 USO Rafa beat Novak comfortably. Though Novak had a surge in level in 2011 and in addition to that he was always a bad match up for Rafa with his top class 2 handed BH.

From 2012-14 it was close again as Rafa adapted and probably Novak cooled off a bit too.

I think in current era, the Alcaraz rise is similar. He has leveled up considerably and the field is currently struggling against him. Though I am confident that others will adapt and improve within the next year or so.

 

[CoolCoolCool]

He was taken off guard by Djoker 2.0. He didn't expect him to show up playing miles better than he ever did before, especially just after having beaten him in a slam final on his best surface. After that, he developed a mental block because he had never faced this situation before, where he had to play someone he didn't know how to beat. His confidence crisis against Djoker affected his level of play against him. The 2 losses on clay are probably what killed his confidence and had the greatest influence on the overall dynamics of their 2011 matches.

Rafa probably spent a lot of time making mental adjustments during the hiatus before the 2012 season. You could see how RG 2012 was a huge relief for him because he finally had the win he needed to free himself from his mental problems and have the belief needed to beat Djoker (although MC and Rome wins probably helped a lot too).

 

[MichaelNadal]

He was taken off guard by Djoker 2.0. He didn't expect him to show up playing miles better than he ever did before, especially just after having beaten him in a slam final on his best surface. After that, he developed a mental block because he had never faced this situation before, where he had to play someone he didn't know how to beat. His confidence crisis against Djoker affected his level of play against him. The 2 losses on clay are probably what killed his confidence and had the greatest influence on the overall dynamics of their 2011 matches.

Rafa probably spent a lot of time making mental adjustments during the hiatus before the 2012 season. You could see how RG 2012 was a huge relief for him because he finally had the win he needed to free himself from his mental problems and have the belief needed to beat Djoker (although MC and Rome wins probably helped a lot too).

This right here. He had finally toppled Federer and became the man, and then basically someone read the book of the dead immediately needed time to adjust, he was expecting to go into 2011 and just be able to keep doing what he was doing, thinking he wouldn't face someone at that high a level.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Nadals serve really crapped the bed overall compared to 2010 which helped Djoker

 

[weakera]

He thought 2010-2013 would be his 2004-2007 where he got to run roughshod over a weak field. Unfortunately only Federer and Djokovic got to enjoy those kinds of eras and never Nadal.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Djokovic discovered that bread is poisonous.

 

[Mike Sams]

Nadals serve really crapped the bed overall compared to 2010 which helped Djoker

USO 2010 was an anomaly. Nadal couldn't keep that level up as it killed his shoulder.

 

[Razer]

Djokovic has a higher peak, that is what this implies.

If Djokovic did not peak then Nadal's peak would look like this

2008 - 2 Slams
2009 - 1 Slam
2010 - 3 Slams
2011 - 3 Slams
2012 - 2 Slams
2013 - 2 Slams

13 Slams in 6 years

Federer won 15 slams in 6 years (2003W to 2009W)

So winning in a vacuum has its perks

 

[Mike Sams]

Nadal was playing Djokovic the same way he was playing Federer and the rest of the field: To repeatedly hit high topspin FHs to the BH. Unfortunately for him, Djokovic has the greatest BH in the history of tennis. So Nadal needed a different plan. But trying to build a plan specifically for just 1 player is very tough. You can't really adjust your whole game for 1 player.

 

[mike danny]

It was pretty bad that Rafa let some BO3 losses kill his confidence that easily.

 

[The Guru]

He thought 2010-2013 would be his 2004-2007 where he got to run roughshod over a weak field. Unfortunately only Federer and Djokovic got to enjoy those kinds of eras and never Nadal.

Rafa is basically the same age as Djokovic so if Djokovic had a weak era and he didnt then thats on him

 

[Biotic]

 

[mahatma]

The sudden GOAT LEVEL shook the entire field.

 

[Razer]

The sudden GOAT LEVEL shook the entire field.

Whenever a player raises the level of play for the field then always the field struggles.

In 2003 Roger suddenly raised the level of play and his peers all struggled a lot, sameway in 2011 Djokovic raised the level of hitting in 2010s.

Djokovic's peak is probably the peak of the Poly Era, thats why no sooner did Big 3 start to decline the field continues to struggle until now. Give how much Djokodal have declined and Alcaraz is unable to take grip, it can be said that Novak remains the best player until now.

 

[uscwang]

I've been binging old Djokodal matches over the years and the one stretch stands out the most is from IW 2011-AO 2012 where Djokovic beat Nadal 7 straight times in 7 straight finals all in big events.

Coming into IW 2011, Nadal led the H2H 16-7 over Djokovic, and after AO 2012, he proceeded to win 6 of the next 7 matches against the Serb...so what happened during those 7 matches in the middle that suddenly made Rafa a complete sitting duck?

2011 would've been the most dominant year of Rafa's career without Novak as he would've won 9 of 12 tournaments he entered between 2011 IW and 2011 USO, and he had his 2nd most ever wins vs top 10 players in a single season so his game was still working to perfection against everyone else.

Looking back it was such a puzzling time to be a Rafa fan because he was playing great tennis (unlike 2015/16) so it's not like it was difficult to watch him, but knowing he was gonna beat everyone else just to lose to Novak in the finals was madenning. I remember it started feeling that way around WI/USO when I found out it was gonna be Novak and not Federer in the finals and getting the feeling of "oh f*** not him again, this is not gonna end well lol"

I started following tennis closely after watching their final in IW that year. They took tennis to a new level. Remember Novak's BHDTL that year? It never fully came back, not to him or anyone else.
Nadal came back and kept on winning majors. But he could never dominate the field again and all but lost his case in WB.

 

[JustMy2Cents]

Rafa is basically the same age as Djokovic so if Djokovic had a weak era and he didnt then thats on him

just look at their slam tally at the point when Fed was at 16
Rafa 9
Djo 1

That should tell the story of Rafa who handled peak Fed better and won.
The miles put in had their toll along with his injuries.

Even with all that Djo has just equalled the GS tally

 

[Razer]

just look at their slam tally at the point when Fed was at 16
Rafa 9
Djo 1

That should tell the story of Rafa who handled peak Fed better and won.
The miles put in had their toll along with his injuries.

Even with all that Djo has just equalled the GS tally

Rafa started playing slams in 2003, Novak started in 2005, they both have close enough miles on their bodies.

Judging miles by slams won is like saying Feliciano Lopez has no miles on his body because he won 0 slams.

It is Rafa's shortcoming that despite having an advantage of peaking earlier physically he could not subdue Federer outside clay and then could not subdue Novak outside clay after 2010, so that is entirely on him, no excuse of he slowing down will be entertained.

 

[Nadal - GOAT]

Rafa started playing slams in 2003, Novak started in 2005, they both have close enough miles on their bodies.

Judging miles by slams won is like saying Feliciano Lopez has no miles on his body because he won 0 slams.

It is Rafa's shortcoming that despite having an advantage of peaking earlier physically he could not subdue Federer outside clay and then could not subdue Novak outside clay after 2010, so that is entirely on him, no excuse of he slowing down will be entertained.

Well he did subdue Fed outside clay from 2008-14 which is a long long time.

Regarding Novak, I agree it is on Rafa that he didn't manage to get the better of Novak more often outside clay post 2010. 2013 was a good year while 2012 AO and 2018 WB were big misses. He tried hard but just fell short in the end.

Though what's great is he continued to hold his ground on clay despite his decline coupled with Novak's improvement. 2013 FO; 2014 FO; 2022 FO were all matches which Rafa could have lost.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Well he did subdue Fed outside clay from 2008-14 which is a long long time.

Regarding Novak, I agree it is on Rafa that he didn't manage to get the better of Novak more often outside clay post 2010. 2013 was a good year while 2012 AO and 2018 WB were big misses. He tried hard but just fell short in the end.

Though what's great is he continued to hold his ground on clay despite his decline coupled with Novak's improvement. 2013 FO; 2014 FO; 2022 FO were all matches which Rafa could have lost.

And that ended up being the reason Nadal passed Federer in the slam count. He kept defending his pet slam against Novak, while Federer couldn't :/

 

[Razer]

Well he did subdue Fed outside clay from 2008-14 which is a long long time.

Regarding Novak, I agree it is on Rafa that he didn't manage to get the better of Novak more often outside clay post 2010. 2013 was a good year while 2012 AO and 2018 WB were big misses. He tried hard but just fell short in the end.

Though what's great is he continued to hold his ground on clay despite his decline coupled with Novak's improvement. 2013 FO; 2014 FO; 2022 FO were all matches which Rafa could have lost.

Of course Rafa did create dents on Fed but subdue ? I would have agreed with you on Fed thing if this was 2016 but look at 2017-2019, the way Fed came back against Rafa, that has thrown the subdue angle out of the window. Federer always had it in him to make racquet adjustments and tackle Rafa's forehand but he played the submissive. It is sad...

Agreed on Clay, he continued holding on clay into 2010s and then 2020s, Novak could not beat him when he was in form, it is a unique record, 2005 till 2022. 2 decades of dominance on 1 surface. He failed to replicate this outside it, had he replicated this even 50% then he would be outright GOAT today with 30-35 slams.

 

[jl809]

Small differences. Aside from the sunshine double, (where he was really on it and still lost anyway), Nadal had the kind of drop off from 2010>2011 across multiple tournament that Djokovic himself then had from 2011>2012. Not drastically worse, just… something missing. While the other guy’s level was much higher than before

I would have loved to see 2011ovic vs 2012dal on clay at Rome and Madrid

 

[roysid]

In 2011 djokovic figured out how to beat nadal and federer. He himself said that in interview.

Though he didn't divulge tactic, it was obvious. Pin nadal to his backhand corner by hitting continuous fh to nadal bh.
After some time nadal will be way out position.
If nadal start with fh cross court then hit the bh dtl to pin him again.

Nadal figured out at the end of uso 2011. He said now I know how to play him.
Used bh slice more and gave better fight at ao 12. Followed by 3 straight wins on clay

 

[roysid]

In 2011 djokovic figured out how to beat nadal and federer. He himself said that in interview.

Though he didn't divulge tactic, it was obvious. Pin nadal to his backhand corner by hitting continuous fh to nadal bh.
After some time nadal will be way out position.
If nadal start with fh cross court then hit the bh dtl to pin him again.

Nadal figured out at the end of uso 2011. He said now I know how to play him.
Used bh slice more and gave better fight at ao 12. Followed by 3 straight wins on clay

 

[Hitman]

The main reason was obvious.

NO ONE saw it coming.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

The main problem was confidence.

He lost tough 3-setters vs Djokovic at Indian Wells & Miami, one of them in a 3rd-set tiebreak. That would indicate good news on other surfaces, especially clay. But grass too since back then Djokovic hadn't fully peaked on the surface and Nadal was at his very best.

Yet, they play a few weeks later on clay and Djokovic wins in straights. TWICE. Then routines him on grass too. And the next HC meeting at the USO is more straightforward than their earlier ones.

He thought 2010-2013 would be his 2004-2007 where he got to run roughshod over a weak field. Unfortunately only Federer and Djokovic got to enjoy those kinds of eras and never Nadal.

Nadal would not run roughshod over 2004-2007 having to face Agassi, Nalbandian, Safin, Davydenko, etc on hard courts.

And Nadal has always been around since Djokovic started playing, so if he couldn't enjoy that "kind of era" it's on him.

 

[Zardoz7/12]

Djokovic's inside out forehand to Nadal's forehand was one of the reasons if I recall, Djokovic always flattened out his forehand to Nadal's forehand leaving the ball shorter.

Djokovic's mental and physical stamina was also a reason, although 2011 was part of Nadal's "peak years" from 2008-2013 he just seemed a little more vulnerable in 2011.

I'll add can you believe 2011 was 12 years ago? I can't believe how time has just flew by.

Here's an example from 2011 -

 

[Mike Sams]

It was pretty bad that Rafa let some BO3 losses kill his confidence that easily.

Who said Nadal's confidence was killed? Nadal was playing at a tremendous level that was enough to beat anyone else. Djokovic had to go to war. Nadal didn't simply just fall over for him. Their matches even in 2011 were extremely competitive. The scoreline doesn't tell the whole story. Nadal could've won Miami 2011 final and was close to it. Their clay matches were also brutally taxing with long rallies. And their AO2012 match, Nadal flubbed an easy shot while up a break in the 5th that probably decided the whole match.

 

[Tennfan123]

Rafa had to drop off at some point after his phenomenal 2008-2010. By the end of that stretch Rafa had the Career slam, golden no less. And he’d been performing at the highest level for six seasons. All that time, Djokovic, only a year younger, had only managed one slam and one WTF.

 

[toth]

Federer win against Djokovic at the FO

 

[Winners or Errors]

 

[Clay lover]

Djokovic is a better player than Nadal on hard and later grass, period. Hard was beginning to show in 2007, and grass in 2011

 

[Nadal - GOAT]

Of course Rafa did create dents on Fed but subdue ? I would have agreed with you on Fed thing if this was 2016 but look at 2017-2019, the way Fed came back against Rafa, that has thrown the subdue angle out of the window. Federer always had it in him to make racquet adjustments and tackle Rafa's forehand but he played the submissive. It is sad...

Agreed on Clay, he continued holding on clay into 2010s and then 2020s, Novak could not beat him when he was in form, it is a unique record, 2005 till 2022. 2 decades of dominance on 1 surface. He failed to replicate this outside it, had he replicated this even 50% then he would be outright GOAT today with 30-35 slams.

Regarding Fed, I only referred to 2008-14 period. Though I agree, subdued is a strong word as it was still always a battle between them. It's just that he had the edge over Fed then. The comeback from Fed in 2017-19 period is top class. Not just Rafa, he even handled Novak brilliantly. Had he converted the 2019 WB MPs, it would have been the perfect finish to his career.

Regarding Rafa dominating outside clay and getting to 30-35 slams, I think that was never really on the cards. He didn't have the big serve and his game style was just too physical. Rather the way I look at it is that if not for Rafa holding clay the way he did, Novak would have been the clear GOAT. He still may end up as a clear slam leader though as he doesn't seem to be ageing.

 

[mike danny]

Who said Nadal's confidence was killed? Nadal was playing at a tremendous level that was enough to beat anyone else. Djokovic had to go to war. Nadal didn't simply just fall over for him. Their matches even in 2011 were extremely competitive. The scoreline doesn't tell the whole story. Nadal could've won Miami 2011 final and was close to it. Their clay matches were also brutally taxing with long rallies. And their AO2012 match, Nadal flubbed an easy shot while up a break in the 5th that probably decided the whole match.

But their 2011 slam matches were really pretty sub par. Nadal looked like he had a mental block before those matches started.

He shouldn't have lost confidence that easily when he still hadn't lost in BO5 at that point.

 

[junior74]

Djokovic

 

[Jonesy]

Todd Martin serving tips started to pay off.

 

[Quaichang]

If you watched the matches again, what did you see? Most of us have lousy memories of matches from 12 years ago, but what I remember is that Djokovic was hitting more aggressively while keeping his error rate comparable to Nadal. And he was serving bigger also.

He removed gluten from his diet which helped with stamina issues.

 

[Mike Sams]

But their 2011 slam matches were really pretty sub par. Nadal looked like he had a mental block before those matches started.

He shouldn't have lost confidence that easily when he still hadn't lost in BO5 at that point.

Don't know why you keep mentioning "confidence". It was a tactical issue Nadal was facing. He didn't have a working strategy against Djokovic in 2011. Nothing to do with confidence.
Try watching those matches again. Nadal fought tooth and nail and Djokovic simply had answers.
Even when Nadal was blasting FHs all over the court, Djokovic was running them down and returning them with interest.
Back in 2010, someone asked "How do you beat Nadal?" Someone else replied, "You have to become Nadal to beat Nadal."
I feel Djokovic became Nadal in 2011 the way he fought for every point and ran everything down and defended so vigorously. It was like playing a human wall.
The only guy I've seen who plays with that level of consistent aggression and athleticism is Carlos Alcaraz.

 

[Mike Sams]

Rafa had to drop off at some point after his phenomenal 2008-2010. By the end of that stretch Rafa had the Career slam, golden no less. And he’d been performing at the highest level for six seasons. All that time, Djokovic, only a year younger, had only managed one slam and one WTF.

Nadal 2013 was probably the best version of Nadal ever. Better than 2010 and 2008.

 

[Mustard]

The biggest weapon of all. He took Nadal totally by surprise.

The pattern before 2011 with Nadal vs. Djokovic was that Djokovic only ever won against Nadal in 2 straight sets and on hardcourt. If it was best of 5 sets, if it was off of hardcourt, or if Nadal won a set, Nadal would find a way to win in the end every time. He was ultimately too relentless.

2011 Indian Wells: Djokovic beats Nadal from a set down, and after Nadal had served dominantly in the first set
2011 Miami: Djokovic again beats Nadal from a set down, and this time was fitter than Nadal in the third set. Fitter than Nadal! What is going on?
2011 Madrid: Djokovic beats Nadal on clay for the first time, in 2 straight sets
2011 Rome: Djokovic again beats Nadal on clay in 2 straight sets. Djokovic still unbeaten in 2011 at this stage.
2011 Wimbledon: Nadal was probably edging play in the early games, but Djokovic pounced at the decisive moment, breaking to win the first set and then quickly raced through the second set.
2011 US Open: Nadal won the pre-match coin toss against Djokovic and elected to serve first for the first time ever. Nadal goes 2-0 up in the first set, loses the set 2-6. This sort of pattern went on for most of the match.

Djokovic's big weapon in 2011 was the total surprise he took his rivals by. Nobody saw his dominant 2011 coming.

Nadal lost the 2012 Australian Open final to Djokovic, but there were positive signs there that he was finding a way to deal with this new Djokovic.

 

[Mustard]

But their 2011 slam matches were really pretty sub par. Nadal looked like he had a mental block before those matches started.

He shouldn't have lost confidence that easily when he still hadn't lost in BO5 at that point.

It was the timing of it. Nadal was playing better up to 4-5 in the first set, and then Djokovic breaks and quickly races through the second set while Nadal is reeling. Nadal might have even dared to think that the way the 2011 French Open went, with Djokovic losing to Federer and Nadal winning the title, meant that Djokovic would go back to his pre-2011 ways.

 

[Turning Pro]

Look back at those losses, quite a few of them were on a knife-edge and 50/50 (iw/miami 2011,Ao12 plus off Wimby 18) and could have gone either way on another day so in hindsight, I'm more than happy with his career. He underperformed in the Wimby/U.S open 11 finals though.

Obvs the Wins At Rg13, and us13, RG 22, were the other way round and great unexpected wins so it evens itself out.

11-7 in slams to Rafa. Leads 2 of the slam in h2h.

20-8 on grass.
20-7 on hard.
2-2 in grass.

Very even to me.

 

[Julius Caesar]

Because Peak Djokovic was better than Peak Rafa

Peak Rafa didn't happen in 2011

 

[The Blond Blur]

He was taken off guard by Djoker 2.0. He didn't expect him to show up playing miles better than he ever did before, especially just after having beaten him in a slam final on his best surface. After that, he developed a mental block because he had never faced this situation before, where he had to play someone he didn't know how to beat. His confidence crisis against Djoker affected his level of play against him. The 2 losses on clay are probably what killed his confidence and had the greatest influence on the overall dynamics of their 2011 matches.

Rafa probably spent a lot of time making mental adjustments during the hiatus before the 2012 season. You could see how RG 2012 was a huge relief for him because he finally had the win he needed to free himself from his mental problems and have the belief needed to beat Djoker (although MC and Rome wins probably helped a lot too).

Took the words right out of my mouth. After back to back disappointing seasons in 09-10 Joker came out of nowhere in 2011. He got a couple close wins on HC MS1000 events and things snowballed out of control from there. He played like a man possessed for the first 9 months of the season.

Tactically RAFA was just playing his default game against Joker since that worked against him previously (and pretty much everyone else on tour). I remember commentators mentioning it’s tough changing your game when it works against 99% of the top 100. Ol’ Rog had a similar problem vs RAFA for over a decade. His game worked against everyone else but RAFA’s. RAFA’s FH was mitigated by Joker’s BH being able to take the ball early on the rise to rush RAFA on his FH side. This led to short balls and RAFA getting pushed off court and culminating with a BH DTL. The biggest change in the dynamic of their matches was RAFA’s far more frequent use of the FHDTL. As soon as he hit that shot it led to 1 of 3 outcomes (assuming it went in oc).

1- An outright winner
2 - a FE
3 - taking control of the point off a weak return.

Joker technically found a counter for that. It’s just that RAFA declined like crazy after the 2014 AO.

 

[Deleted member 791948]

Its very obvious, Nadal's confidence level was lower in 2011, preventing him from hitting down-the-line as much as 2010.
Going cross-court repeatedly was enough to beat Murray in 2011, but not Djokovic (although obviously was very close to beating Djokovic at Miami 2011, tiebreaker in the 3rd Set).
When Nadal regained full confidence on hardcourt in 2013, Nadal hit down-the-line more often, and Djokovic had no answer.

 

[Mustard]

The fact that Nadal won 6 out of 7 against Djokovic from April 2012 to September 2013, after previously losing 7 in a row, adds to Nadal's legendary status. He turned it around against an opponent who had been a nightmare in 2011, and Nadal forced Djokovic to realize that he had a problem with winning some of the biggest matches, thus going out and getting Becker as a coach.