What would a Federer loss to Murray tomorrow mean to you?
- Thread starter LanceStern
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Lendl and Federer Fan
Hall of Fame
The outcome of that match means absolutely freaking nothing to me whatsoever. :wink:
Nadalator
Banned
hey he lost to fish, karlovic, blake and simon - it wouldnt be the end of the world for Fed!
swedechris
Banned
that one or the other gains in the ATP year race. besides that zero, nada, niente, nichts, ziltch.
It wouldn't mean much. Even if he loses to Murray in the AO it's not that big a deal. Fed will create his chances, and will win a few more slams no doubt. That's all he cares for. I really hope Fed wins, cause that would mean that he's in good shape for the AO, but if he doesn't win, I'm not so sure he doesn't have a chance at the AO.
World Beater
Hall of Fame
if murray were to win, it would give him a ton of confidence going into the AO.
Murray is very capable of making the transition from 3 to 5 sets against federer. While it is hard to beat federer on HC in 5 sets, if anyone could do it...murray could.
Murray is very capable of making the transition from 3 to 5 sets against federer. While it is hard to beat federer on HC in 5 sets, if anyone could do it...murray could.
I disagree.. Federer has been losing to Murray a few times now so if he is going to lose one more, his confidence will be down against Murray.. it's like he's playing against Nadal.. Federer seems to be a difference player everytime playing against Nadal.. I hope Federer would beat Murray this time.. ..
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veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Doha is a small tournament so there's no way such radical prediction could be derived from it! People act the same way about Nadal, someone saw a sign in his loss that he won't keep the #1 spot even though there are very few points involved in Doha and being #1 has never meant that you couldn't lose a single match during the year. However if Nadal had lost to Monfils for the 4th or 5th time in a row, you could reasonably infer that Monfils is a bad matchup for Nadal. That's what applies to Fed vs Murray.
these guys don't go into these tournies to lose, and the opponents in the big matches at the AO are gonna be the same ones as here.
T
tennisgirl90
Guest
When Federer loses to Murray, they both have a problem IMO. If Murray wins for the fourth time in a row from Federer, he will be the clear favourite for AO. It would be very painful if he wins four time in a row from Federer and then lose to him when it really matters. But anyway, if Murray wins today we can say he clearly owns Federer mentally.
thejoe
Hall of Fame
Its not just mentally. His games match up well, and when Murray wins, he is usually the better player.
harryz
Professional
What does it mean TO ME?
If Federer loses I will revise my last will and testament, get my affairs in order, light candles and commit hare kare (sp?). Seriously, I could not care less. I hope that the fans are treated to a great match. Does it matter who wins smaller tournaments? I'm betting that the top players are more concerned about their fitness, health, and how well they are playing-- the sources of confidence-- rather than whether they win every single match or lesser titles.
That being said, Jack the Hack-- you are THE MAN.
If Federer loses I will revise my last will and testament, get my affairs in order, light candles and commit hare kare (sp?). Seriously, I could not care less. I hope that the fans are treated to a great match. Does it matter who wins smaller tournaments? I'm betting that the top players are more concerned about their fitness, health, and how well they are playing-- the sources of confidence-- rather than whether they win every single match or lesser titles.
That being said, Jack the Hack-- you are THE MAN.
Turning Pro
Hall of Fame
To the OP. It would mean that Fed was just at his brilliant best at the 08 U.S Open and that Murray was too tired and a lack of grand slam experience aka Djoker U.S Open 07 and that he would defeat Fed at the Aus 09. Similiar scenario only that Murray REALLY KNOWS how to beat Fed on hard courts.
I'm a big Fed fan.
To me it doesn't mean that much as far as Fed's playing because I don't believe Federer takes these smaller tournaments as seriously as the slams.
I think it shows though that Murray is still getting better and will be a major threat at the slams. The fact that Murray is frequently taking out high-ranked players in these tournaments is what concerns me.
To me it doesn't mean that much as far as Fed's playing because I don't believe Federer takes these smaller tournaments as seriously as the slams.
I think it shows though that Murray is still getting better and will be a major threat at the slams. The fact that Murray is frequently taking out high-ranked players in these tournaments is what concerns me.
World Beater
Hall of Fame
murray owns federer officially
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
which explains why Murray got slammed at the US Open. :roll:
zagor
Bionic Poster
Not quite there yet,Nadal beat Fed in 4 slam finals and one slam semis.Until Murray backs up all these wins with winning a best of five slam match against Fed,he cannot be put on the same level as Nadal when it comes to their matches against Fed.
True.
I don't know how many slam(s) will Fed win this year(if any) but I do know that if he wins any,it will be because he won 7 best of five slam matches in one of them not because he got lucky or similar nonsense.
Turning Pro
Hall of Fame
Don't you mean 1st serve? A lot of people already attack Fed's first serve since Nalbandian's crushing of him in the infamous 07 indoor HC season. (nevermind 2nd service)
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Well enjoy the feeling because Murray keeps asserting himself vs Federer and I wouldn't bet on Murray choking a second time if he met him in a slam at this point...
M
Morrissey
Guest
What this match tells me that the Abu Dhabi match a week ago was for real. Neither player didn't tank that match.
LanceStern
Professional
What is it about Murray's game that is so bothersome for Federer?
It seems like he is so consistent, but he has the ability to just slam a winner (especially on the backhand) out of nowhere. Plus his youth gives him super speed and stamina.
Hm I don't know. Hoping Federer can pull it out at the US Open.
It seems like he is so consistent, but he has the ability to just slam a winner (especially on the backhand) out of nowhere. Plus his youth gives him super speed and stamina.
Hm I don't know. Hoping Federer can pull it out at the US Open.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Nalbandian didn't "crush" Federer in a match since 2003.Both of their indoor matches in 2007 were very close(in Madrid one Fed won the first set 6-1 and in Paris he lost in a second set tiebreak).But regardless they didn't have that much success attacking Fed's first serve in TMC that year,if it was that easy Fed wouldn't win TMC that year and convincingly as well at that(he won his semis and final in straights,putting up dominant performances against Nadal and Ferrer).Fed's serve wasn't bad at all in 2008,it was his baseline and return game that lost him matches,not his serve.
For Murray to choke,he first has to be in a position to win a set or a match while he had ZERO of both SPs and MPs in their USO encounter.He never had a lead once in that match and was very close to getting bageled in last set.The USO '07 match with Djokovic was quite different as unlike Murray he had 7 SPs.
Murray is becoming quite a bad match-up for Fed and is IMO favourite going into AO but the fact remains that Fed is tougher to beat in a best of five slam match and that each of their recent matches went the distance and Murray had to work very hard to win so we'll see how it goes.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Primarily:
1.His return of serve
2.His defense
3.His BH
In all these 3 categories Murray is among the best or the best on tour(his return of serve is definitely the best on tour IMO)which makes him a very tough match-up for Fed.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Maybe choke was not the correct word but at the USO Murray had nerves which was normal and I don't expect he will next time around. Don't forget that Fed is also losing confidence now against Murray. The score was more one-sided this time than the times before. One can always hope for a miracle of course but it doesn't look very promising for Fed IF he has to play Murray at AO.
LanceStern
Professional
And it doesn't help that it seems like Federer had a bad service day, and 37 unforced errors
Again, that would probably be because of Murray. Murray's good return of serve forces Fed to go for a little more on the 2nd serve and that opens the way for a few double faults.
And the fact murray has such great defense (he seems to have kept his counterpunching early days and brought an aggressive style with it) that it forces Fed to hit an extra shot or go for more than he should.
That's a really tough matchup
Again, that would probably be because of Murray. Murray's good return of serve forces Fed to go for a little more on the 2nd serve and that opens the way for a few double faults.
And the fact murray has such great defense (he seems to have kept his counterpunching early days and brought an aggressive style with it) that it forces Fed to hit an extra shot or go for more than he should.
That's a really tough matchup
zagor
Bionic Poster
I agree that things don't look to good for Fed if/when he faces Murray in a HC slam again but still atleast he took a set in all of his recent matches against Murray and Fed is harder to beat in a best of five slam match so you never know.I think he's still capable of beating Murray but it is obvious that Murray is a bad match-up for him now so it certainly won't be easy.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
I think Murray is just going to be a "bad match up" for the entire tour at this point.
LanceStern
Professional
Who has been the last person to stop Murray?
It was Federer wasn't it? Because Davydenko beat Murray only after he had that grueling match with Fed the day before!
Murray's a bad matchup for Nadal, Fed, Roddick, ust about everyone except Djokovic I think.
It was Federer wasn't it? Because Davydenko beat Murray only after he had that grueling match with Fed the day before!
Murray's a bad matchup for Nadal, Fed, Roddick, ust about everyone except Djokovic I think.
IvanAndreevich
Legend
Djokovic lost to him twice the last two times they played.
LanceStern
Professional
Yea but Djokovic certainly has an easier time beating Murray than the Nadal/Fed.
His game matches well with Murray's:
+ He's just as solid off both wings and volleys, only he doesn't do slices or drops shots as proficient.
+ His first serve percentage stays relatively high, and he has a more stable backhand than Federer with just as much forehand pace.
+ He scrambles around the court as good as Murray, and his forehand is hard but deep, so Murray can't pick on it as much as he can with nadal.
Djokovic kinda makes up for their weaknesses, and the two losses he ad to Murray weren't shut outs or anything, either one could have won those matches. Murray was just beginning his hot streak then.
His game matches well with Murray's:
+ He's just as solid off both wings and volleys, only he doesn't do slices or drops shots as proficient.
+ His first serve percentage stays relatively high, and he has a more stable backhand than Federer with just as much forehand pace.
+ He scrambles around the court as good as Murray, and his forehand is hard but deep, so Murray can't pick on it as much as he can with nadal.
Djokovic kinda makes up for their weaknesses, and the two losses he ad to Murray weren't shut outs or anything, either one could have won those matches. Murray was just beginning his hot streak then.
zagor
Bionic Poster
There's a difference between being a bad match-up and being a better player.Murray should be considered as one of the contenders for the number one spot this year so there's a chance he might end as being overall the best player this year(although it's still way too early,AO didn't even start yet).
However Murray's playing style isn't really a bad match-up for either Djokovic or Nadal for example,they're all great players so they'll trade wins with one another but they games match-up well.Now with Federer it's a different story as Murray's playing style is a bad match-up for him,similarly to how Tsonga's power game is a bad match-up for Djokovic and Nadal while Fed on the other hand is a bad match-up for Tsonga(and most other power players like Safin,Berdych,Blake etc.).Nadal and Djokovic have problem with power players while they handle defensive players better than Fed while Fed on the other hand handles power players better both of them but has trouble with players who posses great defense.
IvanAndreevich
Legend
No. Federer's backhand is a good shot on HC plain and simple. Any difficulty he's having is probably mental. No one can test a backhand as well as Nadal. Just watch 2007 TMC match - Federer vs Nadal. Or some USO Federer vs Agassi match where he was doing some serious damage with the backhand.
Djokovic has a better backhand. Federer's forehand and serve are significantly better than Djokovic, and so is his fitness. His volleys and slice are also quite a bit better. So really, in my opinion Djoker can only be a better player on a GIVEN day. Of course, Novak still have lots of time to improve, I am just saying up to this point.
On HC at their best -
Murray > Nadal
Murray ~ Djokovic
Murray < Federer
My point being that when he's playing well, Federer is the WORST matchup for ANYONE on HC. He's the most accomplished active player on this surface, and he certainly earned it fair and square.
The bottom line is if Federer isn't playing his best tennis and furthermore makes no effort to be patient and work out a win - of course he will lose to Murray, Djokovic, and Nadal or anyone else.
Perfect example is his two losses in 2007 to Canas, losses to Gilles Simon, and now losses to Andy Murray. Exact same style - defensive counter-punchers with some nice wheels against whom Fed is having trouble lately. It's always on his racquet.
LanceStern
Professional
Djokovic has been giving Murray more toruble than Fed, and has a history of giving more trouble to Murray.
Sure Fed at his best is bad for anyone, that's undisputed. But like you said, and I agree, he's not playing his best, and his backhand is a liability right now.
Djokovic's is more solid at the moment for the sole fact it's two handed and drives through the court well. So that's a weakness that cannot be blatantly exploited. Then he's solid on the forehand and is pretty patient in rallies. Nice serve nice volley.
He's a bette rmatchup for Murray at the moment, simply because Fed isn't doing what it takes to win.
Sure Fed at his best is bad for anyone, that's undisputed. But like you said, and I agree, he's not playing his best, and his backhand is a liability right now.
Djokovic's is more solid at the moment for the sole fact it's two handed and drives through the court well. So that's a weakness that cannot be blatantly exploited. Then he's solid on the forehand and is pretty patient in rallies. Nice serve nice volley.
He's a bette rmatchup for Murray at the moment, simply because Fed isn't doing what it takes to win.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
Sorry this just isn't the case anymore. Maybe in 05-06. Not in 09.
Vermillion
Banned
Fed is getting older while the young ones are still fresh.
LanceStern
Professional
That could be the 100% key to these matchups. Fed plays like he always plays but just can't seem to take the 2nd/3rd sets from Murray.
Murray we know took those huge fitness trainings to work on his stamina, and he's six years younger almost at the peak of his energy/strenth levels.
Fed is "at that age where his body starts to talk back to him" as quoted by McEnroe. Perhaps he just has a harder time staying in the long rally matchups with Murray? Especially when Murray can track his shots down.
IMO - Federer is getting older - and only -really- now cares about GS titles - (at his point in his career with 13 GS & 1 behind Sampras, nothing else really means too much, not even Masters Series (MS) shields (tournaments such as Doha being even less that an ATP MS on the scale of importance).
Yeah, he still says he wants to win this and that and so on and so forth, but the fact remains the only things that he cares about now are those 4 GS. The rest is just for him by now so non-important that its only natural his performances in smaller tournaments will not have the same spark or desire as when he plays in a GS.
Contrast this to a guy like Murray who is young and hungry for even these smaller tournaments like the 1 he just won. Which is natural, he is young and wants to prove himself.
So when Federer losese to people like Murray and Djokovic and so on, i think having proved in New York that he still has more than enough game to beat either of them over 5 sets on the big stages, one should just remember you cannot expect the same level of effort from Roger in all the rest of the tournaments as he puts into a GS campaign.
I personally don't take it as a shock anymore when I see him lose in some or other non-GS tournament, or even a MS tournament. Stepanek beat him in a Clay MS event last year, and then look what Roger did to him i New York on Arthur Ashe stadium, he took him apart in straight sets. Same goes for Djokovic and Murray in the semi and finals. Bottom line is Roger playing in a GS is just different. That's all you can really say about it.
LanceStern
Professional
That's very good analysis cubeboy. I might have to agree with you there
More Fed losses don't bother me at this point. His career streak seems to fit the evolution and maturation of past "modern" legends. He'll probably be spotty for the next few years and pull off a few more GS wins the way that other great players have at this level ( except for Borg as he retired early). As I've enjoyed watching Fed over the years, I also enjoy watching Murray's game and am I'm glad that Murray is in the spotlight ( don't care much for Nadal )...
Leublu tennis
Legend
Hey, I'm with you all the way except that I don't think Federer will take many GS. The odds are one yes, two maybe, more no.
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