"What would you do?" - USTA edition

OrangePower

Legend
After playing a league match where one of the opponents is self-rated, you come to discover that he created a duplicate USTA account just for the sake of re-rating. He has a preexisting account with a computer rating a level higher.

Having said that, his current self rating seems representative of his actual level. His record has him at around 0.500, you actually won your match against him, and he didn't win any matches last year (at the higher level).

Let's stipulate that you know all of this as a certainty. There is zero doubt that it's the same person and that he willfully created a duplicate account.

Do you:

1. File a grievance despite the fact that he is now playing at the appropriate level, because the end doesn't justify the means. Creating a duplicate account in order to re-rate lower is cheating and can't be condoned.

2. Do nothing, because no harm no foul. This is rec tennis and we just want good competition, and if he's now at the right level, then it's no big deal.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I am not always an easy-going person.

If I am the captain, I am shooting off an email to my LLC with the person's information and links to both accounts ... Buh-Bye, I don't tolerate blatant cheating.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Something like this actually happened against a friend's team last year.

A Mixed match, one of the players that shows up to play for the other team (team A) is someone the captain and team (team B) know and wasn't on the roster until right before the match. The match is played in good faith, but afterwards it is discovered the player is on another Mixed team (team C) at the same level and created a new USTA account to be able to sign-up for team A. Our league doesn't allow a player to play on two teams at the same level, so it seems like it was a pretty willful act to do this and not an accident. It was reported to the LLC and the match was changed to a default, but the player was only given a slap on the wrist and allowed to continue playing using their original USTA account on the other team.

Where it is a willful act to circumvent the rules, I'm with @OnTheLine that there should be some sort of punishment as if the league allows it where it is "no harm", they have no leg to stand on to enforce the rule when there is harm.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
Lol--- wait, and this was all within the same league? e.g I'm a professional basketball player in the NBA and I want to play a lot so hypothetically I play for both the Cavaliers and Celtics?

Or she created an additional account than the one she used a previous season?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Lol--- wait, and this was all within the same league? e.g I'm a professional basketball player in the NBA and I want to play a lot so hypothetically I play for both the Cavaliers and Celtics?

Or she created an additional account than the one she used a previous season?
If you are asking about what I wrote, yes, it was the same league, save level, just a different sub-flight. And it was a guy, not a gal. He apparently claimed he didn't know it wasn't allowed ...
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
Yes, I was asking about your comment. That's insane. I'm surprised the computer allows you to make two accounts anyway

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
Lol, so he would have to pay another $49 bucks for Usta membership or whatever plus the additional $29 League fee too. There's a winner.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
File a grievance.

There's no way of knowing how close the actual ratings are to each other. People are supposed to let the system work, not indulge in self help. Sure, a person could have 4-5 accounts, which theoretically could have no impact on the other depending on how your section calculates rating (such as certain age rated leagues not counting if you play in multiple age brackets, or things like mixed not counting if you play adult) but that's not the point. The point is that you should not have an account for mixed doubles and a separate account for adult league, even if they dont affect each other.

If a person really does not want to play at a certain level, then lose, and/or appeal. By creating a duplicate account, they intentionally must fudge the second accounts info. You cant accidentally create two accounts.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
File a grievance.

There's no way of knowing how close the actual ratings are to each other. People are supposed to let the system work, not indulge in self help. Sure, a person could have 4-5 accounts, which theoretically could have no impact on the other depending on how your section calculates rating (such as certain age rated leagues not counting if you play in multiple age brackets, or things like mixed not counting if you play adult) but that's not the point. The point is that you should not have an account for mixed doubles and a separate account for adult league, even if they dont affect each other.

If a person really does not want to play at a certain level, then lose, and/or appeal. By creating a duplicate account, they intentionally must fudge the second accounts info. You cant accidentally create two accounts.
I think you ought to spend a little more time worrying about yourself. And a little less time worrying about other people’s problems.

 
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Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I am not always an easy-going person.

If I am the captain, I am shooting off an email to my LLC with the person's information and links to both accounts ... Buh-Bye, I don't tolerate blatant cheating.
You owe it to me to file a grievance.

I got smoked in 2017 at 4.0. I took my beating and let the computer work it out. It would have been so much easier to expedite things and create a second account.

Creating a second account is not fair to people like me who play by the rules.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
After playing a league match where one of the opponents is self-rated, you come to discover that he created a duplicate USTA account just for the sake of re-rating. He has a preexisting account with a computer rating a level higher.

Having said that, his current self rating seems representative of his actual level. His record has him at around 0.500, you actually won your match against him, and he didn't win any matches last year (at the higher level).

Let's stipulate that you know all of this as a certainty. There is zero doubt that it's the same person and that he willfully created a duplicate account.

Do you:

1. File a grievance despite the fact that he is now playing at the appropriate level, because the end doesn't justify the means. Creating a duplicate account in order to re-rate lower is cheating and can't be condoned.

2. Do nothing, because no harm no foul. This is rec tennis and we just want good competition, and if he's now at the right level, then it's no big deal.
I'd do nothing here in Southern because filing a grievance costs $100. I may send an e-mail to the LLC knowing that she wouldn't do anything about it.
 

brettatk

Semi-Pro
I wouldn't file a grievance, I'd send his info to your LLC. It's their job to police this kind of activity. Although with that there is no guarantee anything will be done.
 
It’s not necessary to file a grievance. A simple email to your Section’s NTRP Coordinator with the details will suffice, I can vouch for that. Do NOT go through your LLC since they are sometimes conflicted.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I would have to look more closely at the situation, but I would only even consider filing a grievance if the person was clearly out of level and it appeared that the player and/or captain did it on purpose and it was affecting the league playoffs (i.e. the player is a difference maker on a team winning the league). I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, so it has to be really egregious and clearly willful for me to care enough to actually pursue it. That doesn't appear to be the case here based on the information in this thread.
 

darkhorse

Semi-Pro
I see no advantage to blowing the whistle. Other people's circus. Other people's monkeys.

I'm not the USTA po po.
Probably in the minority but this is my opinion. Though this is an example of why I don't play USTA anymore, it might be a rare case but the fact people like this even exist is enough to keep me away.
 

brettatk

Semi-Pro
I saw something similar last 40 & Over season. I saw someone had been added to the first place team. He was a teaching pro at one of the local tennis centers in the area. I looked him up and saw that there were two USTA accounts (first name was a little different) for him. Back in 2010 and prior he played 4.5 and rarely lost. In 2018 he self rated as a 4.0 with a new membership. So I'm not sure if he did that because he forgot his old information and didn't want to go through the trouble of figuring it out or whether he knew he'd automatically be put at 4.5 and he'd have to take his chances on appealing down. He won all his matches at 4.0 against good teams so I'm ruling out that he hadn't been playing a lot tennis the last 8 years (as mentioned he is a teaching pro). We played against their team one time that season and he didn't play that weekend. So I never bothered with it. Had we played him in the playoffs I thought about sending off an email. I just want to keep the playing field as fair as possible. Again, this could have all been legit but it just seemed a little strange.
 
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D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
2
no harm no foul, and if he's where he's supposed to be, even better.

i can also see a scenario, where a college grad, say he's a 3.5, fills out the stupid usta questionnaire which asks if he's played "college tennis". he says "yes" because he did play his club team, and now he's automatically 4.5 or 5.0. but he sucks.
so no team will take him (so he can't lose badly and show his true level)
and he can't appeal down (because "it must be true, if it's int he computer"), and the LLC don't care enough to investigate the specific case (or they hear too many sandbagger tales, and don't want to deal with it)
so he's trapped in NTRP limbo.

i'd have done the same thing that OP suggested, create a new account to get to my "real" rating.
i always recommend folks rate lower than they think they are, even if it means they risk being called a sandbagger... because you can always play up.
 

CHtennis

Rookie
I agree with nytennisaddict that the USTA rating questions sucks and creates problems but you cannot create another account and play under that. It should be reported and fixed. Cindysphinx puts it really well that this is bad for people who plays by the rules.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
i always recommend folks rate lower than they think they are, even if it means they risk being called a sandbagger... because you can always play up.
For brand new players, this is the best thing to do - rate low and then play up. If you want to play 4.0 but the site lets you rate 3.5, rate 3.5 and then join the 4.0 team. You'll know in a match or two if you are overmatched and need to go down a level. If you rated at that level, then you can go immediately down to the correct level and sign up for a 3.5 team. If you rated 4.0, then you're at the mercy of an appeal or taking a beating all year to get a 3.5 year end rating. If you play a couple matches at 4.0 and that's the correct level, no big deal, just keep playing at that level.
 

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
I cap a couple 3.5 teams and a 4.0 team. At my club we do a saturday AM mixer -- pickups, switch partners, a couple singles courts going etc -- all 3.5-4.0 players. I met a fellow in this group who played when he was a kid, and coming back to the game after the typical 10yr break. Solid 3.5 player...reliable serve, grounds and volleys spray a bit, but you can tell he has fundamental soundness, just rusty. I invited him to join us on the teams I cap, as many or as few as he wants...mainly for me it's about inclusion and keeping people in the game, building the dance card etc...

I told him about the self-rate rubric via text, but I didn't really get a chance to talk in person about being careful (I always tell people to be honest and not cheat or lie on it, but also to be cognizant that the higher they are rated, they will have fewer options to play, and also my wind up in competition that is a bit too high for where they are...therefore, it is not in their best-interests to have a higher view of their skill level)... Anyway, he does the rubric, and it spits out a 2.5 rating...there's no way he's a 2.5 player and he knows it, but in his lack of knowledge of the system (and frankly, I feel the descriptions are not good enough) he almost rated himself a 4.5, but selected 4.0...so now he cannot sign up for my 3.5 teams where he wants to play.

I emailed our local coordinator, who advised for him to do the auto-appeal function, and said the Section was cranking out corrections...this was an honest mistake. They fixed him to 3.5 inside of a couple days...and no, he is not killing it. He's had two dubs matches and gotten beat handily in both. Ironically one of those losses was to a pair of brothers who, 1 was a 4.0 and appealed down to 3.5 successfully, and the other is a self rate. Live by the sword and all...
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I agree with nytennisaddict that the USTA rating questions sucks and creates problems but you cannot create another account and play under that. It should be reported and fixed. Cindysphinx puts it really well that this is bad for people who plays by the rules.
but if the outcome is ideal and fair, what's the difference?
i suspect CindySphinx is worried about folks abusing the system...
so if you have a history of playing, and do it to sandbag/selfrate down, yeah, you shouldn't be allowed to, but it's easy to do... and i doubt usta are spending much time policing it.
that said, i always thought sandbaggers were a good thing... a free tournament experience, minus the tournament fee :p
 

OrangePower

Legend
It was interesting to get everyone's opinion.

So this was not just a hypothetical - this was an opponent of mine a few weeks ago in 4.5 league. Let's call him John Doe. The reason I know for sure he created a dup account is because he pretty much told me as much! When we were chatting after the match he said he had played 5.0 last year and got crushed, so self-rated at 4.5 this year. Of course this struck me as odd so I looked him up after. Sure enough, John Doe played 3 matches at 5.0 last year as a self rate, lost all three in straight sets (getting an average of 2 games per set), but then somehow the computer still gave him a 5.0C at the end of the year rather than bumping him down. Then this year he registered as Johndoe Doe, and self-rated at 4.5. Clearly this was intentional.

I decided not to do anything about it. I don't like that he circumvented the system for all the reasons others have given. But he is absolutely not a 5.0, and not even a top 4.5 either. The team he is on is towards the bottom of the standings. I don't think his captain had anything to do with it. I think he just realized he was at the wrong level and was not going to get to play on any 5.0 teams, and so decided to apply some creative self help. Reporting him isn't going to achieve anything positive even though I object in principle to what he did. And I admit that I was influenced by the fact that he seemed to be a really nice guy, both during the match and after.

After playing a league match where one of the opponents is self-rated, you come to discover that he created a duplicate USTA account just for the sake of re-rating. He has a preexisting account with a computer rating a level higher.

Having said that, his current self rating seems representative of his actual level. His record has him at around 0.500, you actually won your match against him, and he didn't win any matches last year (at the higher level).

Let's stipulate that you know all of this as a certainty. There is zero doubt that it's the same person and that he willfully created a duplicate account.

Do you:

1. File a grievance despite the fact that he is now playing at the appropriate level, because the end doesn't justify the means. Creating a duplicate account in order to re-rate lower is cheating and can't be condoned.

2. Do nothing, because no harm no foul. This is rec tennis and we just want good competition, and if he's now at the right level, then it's no big deal.
 
D

Deleted member 293577

Guest
It was interesting to get everyone's opinion.

So this was not just a hypothetical - this was an opponent of mine a few weeks ago in 4.5 league. Let's call him John Doe. The reason I know for sure he created a dup account is because he pretty much told me as much! When we were chatting after the match he said he had played 5.0 last year and got crushed, so self-rated at 4.5 this year. Of course this struck me as odd so I looked him up after. Sure enough, John Doe played 3 matches at 5.0 last year as a self rate, lost all three in straight sets (getting an average of 2 games per set), but then somehow the computer still gave him a 5.0C at the end of the year rather than bumping him down. Then this year he registered as Johndoe Doe, and self-rated at 4.5. Clearly this was intentional.

I decided not to do anything about it. I don't like that he circumvented the system for all the reasons others have given. But he is absolutely not a 5.0, and not even a top 4.5 either. The team he is on is towards the bottom of the standings. I don't think his captain had anything to do with it. I think he just realized he was at the wrong level and was not going to get to play on any 5.0 teams, and so decided to apply some creative self help. Reporting him isn't going to achieve anything positive even though I object in principle to what he did. And I admit that I was influenced by the fact that he seemed to be a really nice guy, both during the match and after.
I can see why you wouldn't want to squeal on him. He confided in you, so if you do, you are the bad guy. It sounds like he is sandbagging just to play more matches.

However, had he beat you, would you have reacted in the same way? Or what if he beats one of your team mates and it has playoff consequences, do you tell?

I think he should keep playing 5.0 and lose until he gets bumped down like anyone else. I think that's what most people would do.
 

OrangePower

Legend
I can see why you wouldn't want to squeal on him. He confided in you, so if you do, you are the bad guy. It sounds like he is sandbagging just to play more matches.

However, had he beat you, would you have reacted in the same way? Or what if he beats one of your team mates and it has playoff consequences, do you tell?

I think he should keep playing 5.0 and lose until he gets bumped down like anyone else. I think that's what most people would do.
He is certainly not sandbagging - he is no better than mid 4.5 in actual ability. I think he just made a mistake in self rating at 5.0 last year, got stuck there, and then applied some self help.

But yeah your other points are valid. If I or a teammate had lost to him and it had implications for us, I can't say what I would have done.

As for what I would do in his situation; yes if I had the option of playing at 5.0 until I get crushed enough to get bumped down then that's what I would do, but then again, you can't get bumped down if no one gives you a chance to play, and I don't know if he tried to get onto 5.0 teams but nobody wanted him, or if he didn't even try.
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
Since there are a lot of people who think there's nothing wrong with having duplicate accounts...

What possible reasons does a person have, to need to have multiple accounts?

The whole point of an arbitrary rating system is for people to let the system handle the ratings over time, not make up their own rating as they go along. Is "sandbagging" allowed then? I mean, any time a person falls below .500 win rate, they are allowed to dump down one NTRP level, or, in this case, create a multiple account which effectively resets their NTRP.

I can assure you that if we took away NTRP and everyone played at whatever level they wanted to with/without penalty, people would NOT gravitate towards the 50%ile.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
It was interesting to get everyone's opinion.

So this was not just a hypothetical - this was an opponent of mine a few weeks ago in 4.5 league. Let's call him John Doe. The reason I know for sure he created a dup account is because he pretty much told me as much! When we were chatting after the match he said he had played 5.0 last year and got crushed, so self-rated at 4.5 this year. Of course this struck me as odd so I looked him up after. Sure enough, John Doe played 3 matches at 5.0 last year as a self rate, lost all three in straight sets (getting an average of 2 games per set), but then somehow the computer still gave him a 5.0C at the end of the year rather than bumping him down. Then this year he registered as Johndoe Doe, and self-rated at 4.5. Clearly this was intentional.

I decided not to do anything about it. I don't like that he circumvented the system for all the reasons others have given. But he is absolutely not a 5.0, and not even a top 4.5 either. The team he is on is towards the bottom of the standings. I don't think his captain had anything to do with it. I think he just realized he was at the wrong level and was not going to get to play on any 5.0 teams, and so decided to apply some creative self help. Reporting him isn't going to achieve anything positive even though I object in principle to what he did. And I admit that I was influenced by the fact that he seemed to be a really nice guy, both during the match and after.
Nope, still not fair.

If he is winning four games per match, that is still a decent result. He could have played tournament, he could have formed a new team, he could have appealed down.

Or he could have done what some of my friends did— suck it up. I have friends who were bumped to 4.0 but are so weak that no decent team would take them. They opted not to play and so are effectively locked out of USTA.

Why does this guy get to cheat his way into a better outcome?

And I say anyone who can take 4 games off of a 5.0 is not a low 4.5.

Cindy — who sure wasn’t winning 4 games per match at 4.0 before her bump down
 
Now, just because no “decent” team will take your friend doesn’t lock her out of USTA by any means. I know plenty of players on the “other type” of team and they seem happy enough. Beats not playing.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Nope, still not fair.

If he is winning four games per match, that is still a decent result. He could have played tournament, he could have formed a new team, he could have appealed down.

Or he could have done what some of my friends did— suck it up. I have friends who were bumped to 4.0 but are so weak that no decent team would take them. They opted not to play and so are effectively locked out of USTA.

Why does this guy get to cheat his way into a better outcome?

And I say anyone who can take 4 games off of a 5.0 is not a low 4.5.

Cindy — who sure wasn’t winning 4 games per match at 4.0 before her bump down
It's definitely not fair and I would not recommend that anyone do this, but the original question was not whether you consider it "fair", it was whether you would care enough to do something about it if you knew. I don't think I would in this case, and not in any case unless this is clearly someone sandbagging to play at a level where they don't belong.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
Now, just because no “decent” team will take your friend doesn’t lock her out of USTA by any means. I know plenty of players on the “other type” of team and they seem happy enough. Beats not playing.
Agree with what you're saying. There's always a team of 3.5 ladies playing at 4.0 that would love to have a random 4.0 on their team even though that 4.0 might be horrible. However some people don't want to play on a team with a bunch of random folks and would just assume not play.
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
Just because something is technically against the rules doesn't mean you need to be the one to report every violation.

Do you call the po po every time you see someone speeding, not stopping all the way making a right turn on red, or texting and driving?

Do you tell the boss every time a co-worker is late, violates the company dress code, or fails to comply with some other aspect of the employee handbook that does not directly impact company or customer interests?

In other sports, do you bring every rule violation to the attention of the officials? Personally, I work to be as welcoming as possible to newcomers and less experienced participants in my preferred sports. My standard operating procedure is to discretely mention the issue to the new participant in hopes of increasing compliance without causing anyone trouble.

In the past few weeks, I saw at least a dozen undersized fish and didn't report any of them (gasp!) In the shooting sports, I often see equipment violations, but don't recall ever reporting one. I also see several common violations in mini-golf that I see no need of reporting to officials.

My point is that the mere presence of a rules violation does not obligate every witness thereof to play the role of a tattle tale. Remaining quiet or choosing to address the issue with the individual rather than the officials are almost always valid options. I prefer a path that maximizes participation and enjoyment for all parties rather than a path that might maximize rules compliance. I also try and do for others what I would want them to do for me, which typically demands a gracious approach of talking to me privately about a matter before blowing the whistle.
 
Agree with what you're saying. There's always a team of 3.5 ladies playing at 4.0 that would love to have a random 4.0 on their team even though that 4.0 might be horrible. However some people don't want to play on a team with a bunch of random folks and would just assume not play.
Understood. But that's not being "locked out". That's a personal choice. "Locked out" is being a 5.5, poor souls. My recommendation to her would be to join one of those other teams, who knows, might make a new friend or two.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Agree with what you're saying. There's always a team of 3.5 ladies playing at 4.0 that would love to have a random 4.0 on their team even though that 4.0 might be horrible. However some people don't want to play on a team with a bunch of random folks and would just assume not play.
Yes, that is exactly the issue.

I have the same issue with playing up at 4.0. Sure, I could get on a team of a bunch of 3.5 strangers who don't mind getting smoked every week. But it is hard to see the value in it. It would just be the same thing I am already doing (playing 3.5) except that our 4.0 opponents would have the skill to target my partner relentlessly if she were the weaker player. Unless I could find a 3.5 who is very close to a bump up, it would not be much fun. And if we are talking about a bunch of strangers, how would I ever find this partner in that group, and why would I think she would leave her current partner(s) to play with me?
 
This may be highlighting some differences between men’s and women’s. In men’s, a team of strangers does not remain so more than a week or two. We also tend not to glom onto a partner for life, the captain makes those decisions week to week often with our input. But I understand from my wife’s tribulations that women’s tends to be different in these regards.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Nope, still not fair.

If he is winning four games per match, that is still a decent result. He could have played tournament, he could have formed a new team, he could have appealed down.

Or he could have done what some of my friends did— suck it up. I have friends who were bumped to 4.0 but are so weak that no decent team would take them. They opted not to play and so are effectively locked out of USTA.

Why does this guy get to cheat his way into a better outcome?

And I say anyone who can take 4 games off of a 5.0 is not a low 4.5.

Cindy — who sure wasn’t winning 4 games per match at 4.0 before her bump down
All fair points.

You'll have to accept my assessment having played the guy that skill wise he is middling 4.5. You are right though, he could have found some 5.0 team willing to play him, or perhaps form his own team, or play tournaments, and that would have been the 'honest' thing to do. Perhaps more likely he would have dropped out of USTA as you describe.

I was somewhat conflicted about what to do; what he did goes against my sense of playing by the rules, but ultimately I decided that the consequence of reporting it (the league loses a player who seems appropriate to level and a decent guy) isn't a good outcome for anyone.

I respect that others may have different opinions and may have concluded differently.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Now, just because no “decent” team will take your friend doesn’t lock her out of USTA by any means. I know plenty of players on the “other type” of team and they seem happy enough. Beats not playing.
Guy I'm talking about was 5.0 (before he re-registered as 4.5, ha).
It's not as bad as 5.5 where you really have no options to play, but still depending on the area your choices for playing 5.0 are limited, especially if you are really a mid-level 4.5 in terms of actual ability.
 

OrangePower

Legend
The whole point of an arbitrary rating system is for people to let the system handle the ratings over time, not make up their own rating as they go along. Is "sandbagging" allowed then? I mean, any time a person falls below .500 win rate, they are allowed to dump down one NTRP level, or, in this case, create a multiple account which effectively resets their NTRP.
Completely agree. However, sometimes the computer does get it wrong, and so there needs to be a fair way to appeal. The current appeal process doesn't actually involve directly assessing the player's skill; it's just goes by the computer rating (which doesn't help if the computer got it wrong to begin with), or if there is some major medical issue. So lacking an effective way to appeal, some players who are legitimately at too high a rating are either going to cheat or else stop playing USTA, neither of which is a good outcome.
 

OrangePower

Legend
How did this fellow become a 5.0 in the first place?
He self-rated 5.0 last year. Probably didn't know better. Played exactly 3 matches, lost badly in all, but ended the year with a 5.0C rating. Maybe his opponents felt sorry for him and threw him a few mercy games, enough for the computer to keep him at 5.0, who knows. He is certainly no 5.0 in terms of ability.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
He self-rated 5.0 last year. Probably didn't know better. Played exactly 3 matches, lost badly in all, but ended the year with a 5.0C rating. Maybe his opponents felt sorry for him and threw him a few mercy games, enough for the computer to keep him at 5.0, who knows. He is certainly no 5.0 in terms of ability.
If he lost that badly it seems hard to imagine the appeal button wouldn't work for him.
 

OrangePower

Legend
If he lost that badly it seems hard to imagine the appeal button wouldn't work for him.
I have no idea if he tried. This was an opponent who after the match as we were chatting mentioned he had played 5.0 last year and then this year self-rated as 4.5. After I got home I realized that what he said is not possible so I looked him up and found the duplicate USTA accounts. I don't know this guy just met him for the first time at that match and have not seen him since.
 

McLovin

Legend
@OrangePower, we're having a similar dilemma in our league, only we're the ones considering a 2nd account. Basically, it goes like this:
  • the guy played 5th or 6th singles on a weak D3 team 15 years ago
  • didn't play for maybe 10 years
  • picked up the racquet again about 4 years ago and has been steadily getting his game back.
  • we asked him to play on our 4.5 team because we need warm bodies for Regionals, and he's willing to go out and play singles (most of us are too old to play singles in 90+ degrees).
  • apparently about 3 or 4 years ago he registered for USTA, and after answering all the questions, it rated him as a 5.0, so he didn't play (no convenient 5.0 leagues here)
  • he's appealed (multiple times), and has continuously been denied, even though the USTA's own chart (see here) shows him as a 4.5.
I've played him on multiple occasions and have lost a total of 2 games. I'm a computer rated 4.5 (although I did a stint at 5.0 a couple of years ago), and I can say there is absolutely no way he's a 5.0. In fact, I'd say he's borderline 4.0, mainly due to his lack of play.

So...we're considering having him re-register under a different spelling of his name, along w/ a different address.

Flame away...
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
@OrangePower, we're having a similar dilemma in our league, only we're the ones considering a 2nd account. Basically, it goes like this:
  • the guy played 5th or 6th singles on a weak D3 team 15 years ago
  • didn't play for maybe 10 years
  • picked up the racquet again about 4 years ago and has been steadily getting his game back.
  • we asked him to play on our 4.5 team because we need warm bodies for Regionals, and he's willing to go out and play singles (most of us are too old to play singles in 90+ degrees).
  • apparently about 3 or 4 years ago he registered for USTA, and after answering all the questions, it rated him as a 5.0, so he didn't play (no convenient 5.0 leagues here)
  • he's appealed (multiple times), and has continuously been denied, even though the USTA's own chart (see here) shows him as a 4.5.
I've played him on multiple occasions and have lost a total of 2 games. I'm a computer rated 4.5 (although I did a stint at 5.0 a couple of years ago), and I can say there is absolutely no way he's a 5.0. In fact, I'd say he's borderline 4.0, mainly due to his lack of play.

So...we're considering having him re-register under a different spelling of his name, along w/ a different address.

Flame away...
If he never played 5.0, after a couple years, he should be able to re-take the self-rating and either get a 4.5 or file a self-rating appeal, which is looked at by a person and not just an automated thing. If the sectional self-rating appeals committee looked at him and denied the appeal, they're just *****.
 

winchestervatennis

Hall of Fame
@OrangePower, we're having a similar dilemma in our league, only we're the ones considering a 2nd account. Basically, it goes like this:
  • the guy played 5th or 6th singles on a weak D3 team 15 years ago
  • didn't play for maybe 10 years
  • picked up the racquet again about 4 years ago and has been steadily getting his game back.
  • we asked him to play on our 4.5 team because we need warm bodies for Regionals, and he's willing to go out and play singles (most of us are too old to play singles in 90+ degrees).
  • apparently about 3 or 4 years ago he registered for USTA, and after answering all the questions, it rated him as a 5.0, so he didn't play (no convenient 5.0 leagues here)
  • he's appealed (multiple times), and has continuously been denied, even though the USTA's own chart (see here) shows him as a 4.5.
I've played him on multiple occasions and have lost a total of 2 games. I'm a computer rated 4.5 (although I did a stint at 5.0 a couple of years ago), and I can say there is absolutely no way he's a 5.0. In fact, I'd say he's borderline 4.0, mainly due to his lack of play.

So...we're considering having him re-register under a different spelling of his name, along w/ a different address.

Flame away...
Willie $tearn
 

Bluefan75

Professional
Just because something is technically against the rules doesn't mean you need to be the one to report every violation.

Do you call the po po every time you see someone speeding, not stopping all the way making a right turn on red, or texting and driving?

Do you tell the boss every time a co-worker is late, violates the company dress code, or fails to comply with some other aspect of the employee handbook that does not directly impact company or customer interests?

In other sports, do you bring every rule violation to the attention of the officials? Personally, I work to be as welcoming as possible to newcomers and less experienced participants in my preferred sports. My standard operating procedure is to discretely mention the issue to the new participant in hopes of increasing compliance without causing anyone trouble.

In the past few weeks, I saw at least a dozen undersized fish and didn't report any of them (gasp!) In the shooting sports, I often see equipment violations, but don't recall ever reporting one. I also see several common violations in mini-golf that I see no need of reporting to officials.

My point is that the mere presence of a rules violation does not obligate every witness thereof to play the role of a tattle tale. Remaining quiet or choosing to address the issue with the individual rather than the officials are almost always valid options. I prefer a path that maximizes participation and enjoyment for all parties rather than a path that might maximize rules compliance. I also try and do for others what I would want them to do for me, which typically demands a gracious approach of talking to me privately about a matter before blowing the whistle.
Thing is, we already have one person in this thread who no longer participates in USTA leagues because of things like this. How much of a newcomer does one have to be to purposely do this? I would think, save for the situation where the matrix rated the guy 5.0 due to club in college, it's someone who has been around the block. Seems to me, you're having to choose between having the person who would do this in USTA leagues, or the poster who would play if this stuff didn't go on, but not both.

And while I applaud your faith in humanity, these are the types of people for whom the saying "you can get further with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word." They will lie to your face, tell you you are right, and go on about what they were doing. "Sh!%ty people hope you will take the high road so they will never have to face consequences for their actions." This isn't a case where the person didn't know that you cannot call your own first serve out. This is creating a second account in the USTA system, for pete's sake. How much information needs to be changed in order for the system not to catch it? That's no accident.
 

OrangePower

Legend
@OrangePower, we're having a similar dilemma in our league, only we're the ones considering a 2nd account. Basically, it goes like this:
  • the guy played 5th or 6th singles on a weak D3 team 15 years ago
  • didn't play for maybe 10 years
  • picked up the racquet again about 4 years ago and has been steadily getting his game back.
  • we asked him to play on our 4.5 team because we need warm bodies for Regionals, and he's willing to go out and play singles (most of us are too old to play singles in 90+ degrees).
  • apparently about 3 or 4 years ago he registered for USTA, and after answering all the questions, it rated him as a 5.0, so he didn't play (no convenient 5.0 leagues here)
  • he's appealed (multiple times), and has continuously been denied, even though the USTA's own chart (see here) shows him as a 4.5.
I've played him on multiple occasions and have lost a total of 2 games. I'm a computer rated 4.5 (although I did a stint at 5.0 a couple of years ago), and I can say there is absolutely no way he's a 5.0. In fact, I'd say he's borderline 4.0, mainly due to his lack of play.

So...we're considering having him re-register under a different spelling of his name, along w/ a different address.

Flame away...
Yeah I think the appeal system sucks and forces people into these dilemmas. Maybe there needs to be a 'superior court' appeal where someone actually watches the person play and then can base a decision on more than just what the matrix / computer says.
 
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