Whats Nishikori like 2-5000 vs. the Top guys?

SoBad said:
In the Sampras-Kafelnikov era, aka Gold Era, you had to play all-time greats every round to win a slam. Kafelnikov won the same 3/5 Gold Slam that Djokovic has managed thus far, except the Kafelnikov 3/5 included the prestigious French.

Nishikori has the talent to beat everyone, but he is too kind to his fans and plays too much. Playing bunch of mickey mouse instead of spending quiet time at hospitals, ortho clinics, and rehabilitation resorts, even in the winter! Plus he refuses to bribe directors and gets stiffed on draws -- having to battle Djokovic in the USO semis instead of the easy breezy peasy cozy Federer for the Cilic fresh and rested like a spring cucumber for the final!
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Talk about selective counting! Regardless of the status of the Olympic gold medal today, it was clearly and decisively below the year-end championships in prestige in 2000 (when Kafelnikov won Olympic gold). Also, winning an event counts, regardless of whether you've won it before or not. Even if I took your claim of which are the top five titles in tennis, Djokovic leads Kafelnikov 11-3 in them. Finally, here is a list of the all-time greats whom Kafelnikov beat in each round of his runs to win the three titles that you consider to be major. I've put in bold the ones whom I think might have a claim to be all-time greats. I tried to be generous.

- Galo Blanco, Thomas Johansson, Felix Mantilla, Francisco Clavet, Richard Krajicek, Pete Sampras, Michael Stich.
- Jonas Bjorkman, Jason Stoltenberg, Jim Courier, Andrei Pavel, Todd Martin, Tommy Haas, Thomas Enqvist.
- Juan Antonio Marin, Juan Ignacio Chela, Mark Philippoussis, Gustavo Kuerten, Arnaud Di Pasquale, Tommy Haas.
 
helterskelter said:
Regardless of the status of the Olympic gold medal today, it was clearly and decisively below the year-end championships in prestige in 2000 (when Kafelnikov won Olympic gold). Finally, here is a list of the all-time greats whom Kafelnikov beat in each round of his runs to win the three titles that you consider to be major. I've put in bold the ones whom I think might have a claim to be all-time greats. I tried to be generous.

- Galo Blanco, Thomas Johansson, Felix Mantilla, Francisco Clavet, Richard Krajicek, Pete Sampras, Michael Stich.
- Jonas Bjorkman, Jason Stoltenberg, Jim Courier, Andrei Pavel, Todd Martin, Tommy Haas, Thomas Enqvist.
- Juan Antonio Marin, Juan Ignacio Chela, Mark Philippoussis, Gustavo Kuerten, Arnaud Di Pasquale, Tommy Haas.
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While obviously no all time greats, but this list has some very serious players on it apart from the bolded ones. Lots of Grand Slam winners/finalists and very few obvious pushovers. I'm actually very impressed by it.

And, the Olympic Gold comparison is, no offense, a red herring. The Olympic Gold had exactly the same status then as it had now. a Mickey-Mouse Grand Slam Wannabe Tournament, regardless of all the talk surrounding it
 
Kalin said:
While obviously no all time greats, but this list has some very serious players on it apart from the bolded ones. Lots of Grand Slam winners/finalists and very few obvious pushovers. I'm actually very impressed by it.

And, the Olympic Gold comparison is, no offense, a red herring. The Olympic Gold had exactly the same status then as it had now. a Mickey-Mouse Grand Slam Wannabe Tournament, regardless of all the talk surrounding it
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Yeah, you're right that the list is quite impressive. But note that it isn't as impressive as it looks at first glance, because he was often playing players on their weakest surface. For example, beating Krajicek, then Sampras, then Stich at Wimbledon would have been super impressive. Beating them back-to-back-to-back at Roland Garros was less impressive. Johansson was also not a great clay-courter. While Blanco, Mantilla, and Clavet all were handy clay-courters, they were somewhat stymied by how fast the courts played in 1996 (which is why Krajicek, Sampras, and Stich all made it as far as they did). The courts were pretty perfectly suited to someone like Kafelnikov that year.

Also: Courier was way past his best by the Australian Open 1999, while Haas wasn't even 21 yet. He put up a much better fight in the Olympic final than in the Australian semi.

At the Olympics, note that Kuerten was always weak on rebound ace. He never even made the fourth round of the Australian Open, whereas he at least made the quarter-finals of both Wimbledon and the US Open.

I agree with you about the status of the Olympics.
 
helterskelter said:
Yeah, you're right that the list is quite impressive. But note that it isn't as impressive as it looks at first glance, because he was often playing players on their weakest surface. For example, beating Krajicek, then Sampras, then Stich at Wimbledon would have been super impressive. Beating them back-to-back-to-back at Roland Garros was less impressive. Johansson was also not a great clay-courter. While Blanco, Mantilla, and Clavet all were handy clay-courters, they were somewhat stymied by how fast the courts played in 1996 (which is why Krajicek, Sampras, and Stich all made it as far as they did). The courts were pretty perfectly suited to someone like Kafelnikov that year.

Also: Courier was way past his best by the Australian Open 1999, while Haas wasn't even 21 yet. He put up a much better fight in the Olympic final than in the Australian semi.

At the Olympics, note that Kuerten was always weak on rebound ace. He never even made the fourth round of the Australian Open, whereas he at least made the quarter-finals of both Wimbledon and the US Open.

I agree with you about the status of the Olympics.
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Good points; you remember all this stuff much better than I do :) But it's still a nice list and, as we often say, one doesn't choose one's draw in a tournament.

I still remember Kafelnikov almost beating peak Pete at the AUS Open (I think they went 5 sets); and Kafelnikov was just a rookie. So he could hang with the best at their best surface too... when he was in the mood. What's it with talented Russians with gorgeous 2HBHs that can rarely put it all together :confused:
 
I'm a professor, so I'm pretty good at doing research! :)

Definitely a good list of opponents, especially at the two Slams.

I'd forgotten that AO match with Sampras. Sampras won 6-3 2-6 6-3 1-6 9-7! And went on to win the title. So a very impressive effort by Kafelnikov. I'm not sure why he wasn't more consistent. I remember the commentators talking about him being a wasted talent as early as his 1996 AO defeat against Becker in the quarter-finals, when Kafelnikov wasn't yet 22! It was a good opportunity, though, because Sampras was out and Agassi way out of form. Sure enough, Becker cruised to the title. Had Kafelnikov beaten him, he'd likely have at least made the final. I also remember the commentators thought he might make the final at the 1994 RG, as his half had opened up. But then he lost to Berasategui in round 2 or 3...and Berasategui did go on to make the final. Part of Kafelnikov's problem was that he did best on indoor hard or indoor carpet and no Slam was played indoors. Of the four Slams, I think only the AO was played in conditions that he liked. Kind of the opposite of today, when the top players often play in conditions that suit them pretty much all the time.

As for Safin, well when you rock up to a Slam final with bags under your eyes, a bevy of women you picked up the night before in your box, and hit the ball 10 MPH slower than in the rounds prior to the final, you get what you prepare for! I know it was his 22nd birthday, but you'd still think he could have delayed the party until the Sunday evening, by which time he'd have already played the final!

Kalin said:
Good points; you remember all this stuff much better than I do :) But it's still a nice list and, as we often say, one doesn't choose one's draw in a tournament.

I still remember Kafelnikov almost beating peak Pete at the AUS Open (I think they went 5 sets); and Kafelnikov was just a rookie. So he could hang with the best at their best surface too... when he was in the mood. What's it with talented Russians with gorgeous 2HBHs that can rarely put it all together :confused:
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helterskelter said:
I'm a professor, so I'm pretty good at doing research! :)

Definitely a good list of opponents, especially at the two Slams.

I'd forgotten that AO match with Sampras. Sampras won 6-3 2-6 6-3 1-6 9-7! And went on to win the title. So a very impressive effort by Kafelnikov. I'm not sure why he wasn't more consistent. I remember the commentators talking about him being a wasted talent as early as his 1996 AO defeat against Becker in the quarter-finals, when Kafelnikov wasn't yet 22! It was a good opportunity, though, because Sampras was out and Agassi way out of form. Sure enough, Becker cruised to the title. Had Kafelnikov beaten him, he'd likely have at least made the final. I also remember the commentators thought he might make the final at the 1994 RG, as his half had opened up. But then he lost to Berasategui in round 2 or 3...and Berasategui did go on to make the final. Part of Kafelnikov's problem was that he did best on indoor hard or indoor carpet and no Slam was played indoors. Of the four Slams, I think only the AO was played in conditions that he liked. Kind of the opposite of today, when the top players often play in conditions that suit them pretty much all the time.

As for Safin, well when you rock up to a Slam final with bags under your eyes, a bevy of women you picked up the night before in your box, and hit the ball 10 MPH slower than in the rounds prior to the final, you get what you prepare for! I know it was his 22nd birthday, but you'd still think he could have delayed the party until the Sunday evening, by which time he'd have already played the final!
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Great summary; thank you for bringing back all those fascinating facts... we kind of tend to gloss over the older eras apart from trying to remember who beat whom in the final... while very often the key matches happened before that. Seems Kafa was a whisker (OK, make that a few whiskers) away from making a few more finals.

On the other hand, given how relaxed and inconsistent both he and Safin were, they could have easily ended up with no major titles whatsoever. So in the end I'm not going to feel too sorry for them :cool:
 
Both are multimillionaire double-Slam winners who are now enjoying successful second careers that they would not have got but for their tennis careers. I don't think there's a need to feel sorry for either of them!

Kalin said:
Great summary; thank you for bringing back all those fascinating facts... we kind of tend to gloss over the older eras apart from trying to remember who beat whom in the final... while very often the key matches happened before that. Seems Kafa was a whisker (OK, make that a few whiskers) away from making a few more finals.

On the other hand, given how relaxed and inconsistent both he and Safin were, they could have easily ended up with no major titles whatsoever. So in the end I'm not going to feel too sorry for them :cool:
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2-5001 now.


gif-dog-is-so-tired-he-literally-falls-asleep
 
How can it go from 2-5000 to 2-50001 all of a sudden? ROFLMAO, that's like saying this match was worth 45001 points!
 
nowhereman said:
Stanimal? More like MUGrinka. Beating Nole is what counts; taking out an apathetic and careless Stan ain't worth SQUAT. So as far as I'm concerned, his record remains at 2-5002. ROFLMAO!!!
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Well what constitutes a "top guy?" Top 10 player? Top 5?

Stan may well be a bipolar mug, but he is ranked 5 in the world, and owns 2 slams...
 
Mainad said:
Back up to #4 from the start of this week.
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Rafa better get his wrist right, and start winning some matches on the tour, otherwise he might drop out of the top 10.

Boy, if Rafa doesn't do well the rest of the year or misses time to get the wrist right, could we possibly be looking at both guys dropping out of the top 10 for the first time in more than a decade?!
 
Big_Dangerous said:
Rafa better get his wrist right, and start winning some matches on the tour, otherwise he might drop out of the top 10.

Boy, if Rafa doesn't do well the rest of the year or misses time to get the wrist right, could we possibly be looking at both guys dropping out of the top 10 for the first time in more than a decade?!
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I guess all we can do is sit tight,wait and see and hope for the best! :cool:
 
Nishikori's done admirably well for the disadvantages he has in height and being injury prone. Apart from that he's got the same problem lately as everybody else on the tour, which is trying to make matches against Djokovic atleast competitive. Remember that Djokovic has only had one loss this year in the slams so far, and is cruising along on retirements.
 
kishnabe said:
Nishikori is exceptional for his height.

He will win a slam when Novak falls off his wheels.
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For me this sums up what I like about Nishi, too.

I hope your prediction about him winning a major is true. Would be a wonderful moment for sure.
 
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